etheran_IHB
New member
Graph,
What do you think of fieldstone homes?
What do you think of fieldstone homes?
neighborhoods and builders
- Thread starter bruswain_IHB
- Start date
NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
I'll never look at two men heading out of a gunstore the same way ever again - bedazzled TR jeans or not.
Research my posts and read them again. You will find your answer.
I think the signature S&S feature is the giant bonus room over the 3 car garage. Of the many S&S homes I've visited, I haven't seen any good uses for the huge bonus room.
S&S did that through out FV with a deck over the garage out at the front of a house. The deck was not covered. The deck material was sinfully ugly. Some sandpaper sprayed on texture and the deck sound hollow and not solid. The waist high wall on 3 sides trapped leaves, dirt and soot. Water leaked into the garage below. Vietnamese in FV love these home because they can do room additions at the deck and house extended families. The 3 car garages with driveways could park 6 cars.
TWH has done amazing projects: Mar Fiore in Aviara, Palacio in Marina Hills, Woodlands in Valencia, Mahogony, Mayfield and Rosegate in Northwood Pointe, Parazul in Newport Coast, Cambria in North Park, Watermark in Crystal Cove, Villa in Shady Canyon, Belcara in Newport Coast, Casita in Santaluz, Weatherly in Coto, Amberly Lane in Oak knoll district in Ladera Ranch, Fairbank Highland in Fairbank Ranch and Moraga in the Bay Area.
Their subsequent projects were less impressive and misguided under the new regime in Novato, Calabasas, Corona and other places. For all the positive and some negatives TMH is on my neutral list. I have not seen enough of its track record under the new management to draw my conclusion.
On page 1 here is what he wrote about TWH:
"Taylor (Woodrow) Morrison was a company who did two landmark projects in Northwood Pointe Mahogany and Mayfield that opened doors for TIC innovation. Their products were the reason why homeowners grew dissatisfied with their homes and wanted to move up. The products were excellent and quality of construction was impeccable. The founding principals left the company early on and started Brookfield Homes. The next generation of executives did even better in branding this company for another 7 years before the mother company in London and Florida decided to ruin the company by hiring KB and Ryland executives to run the OC office. TWH is no longer the same as before."
... Thanks for all this info, Bk. I have spent half the morning taking notes on all of it.
jumpcut_IHB
New member
Wow, those community profiles are excellent! I've been reading this blog almost from the beginning and never noticed that section. It must have taken a lot of work, but I think they're the best detailed and illustrated descriptions of Irvine Villages from any third party...especially since they concentrate on some of the older villages that don't garner much publicity these days. Hate to ask for even more but it would be great if you could give the same treatment to the remaing villages whenever you have the time. Nice work, IR.IrvineRenter said:
Trooper_IHB
New member
You need to stop wearing with those bedazzled True Religions.
OK, I had to laugh at that one.....
OK, I had to laugh at that one.....
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
High Gravity said:
I'll never look at two men heading out of a gunstore the same way ever again - bedazzled TR jeans or not.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
Creativity of products always starts from a piece of raw land. A breakthrough project must be fully designed and developed before the land plan. Unfortunately in today’s practice no developer would invest the money for a set of architectural plan before laying out streets and lots. The most common practice is to plot old projects and use them for proper sizing to establish lot sizes and street location. This account for why the shoppers kept seeing recycled projects from the same builders. Most builders are stereotyped into certain quality and footage range like Cal Pac’s small footage detached home to Stan Pac’s 3500sf+ mansions.
There are builders out there who always pushed the envelope for creativity and to build a much clever house. Developers are very controlling and dictate the product for the builders. The “rebel” builders are not afraid of the developers because their creative products often elevated the branding of a community. They are the “Nordstrom” of a community. Nordstrom can afford to negotiate and ask for concession because a mall owner needs it for the success of the retail establishment while the mall would never need to demand or push this anchor to create a first class ambiance. Now substitute the mall owner with developers. The idea is the same.
The same comparison also goes to builders’ with a Mervyn reputation that the mall owner has to watch it like a hawk to make sure Mervyn is building their store with nicer material and create an acceptable ambiance so not to drag down the brand of the mall. Many mall owners just do not have the expertise to manage so this is when Simon or Westfield comes in to help to device a plan of action ranging from remodel, guest service team, accessorizing, signage, countless facets to brand a mall. Developers like TIC and Mission Viejo Company are self sufficient in branding their projects and managing bad builders.
Before the recession of the 90’s when developers were successful selling houses they dictated the products for all the builders. Westpark was an example of Ticky Tacky pink boxes looking all the same. Ticky Tacky builders built in Westpark and numerous planned communities. Being on the Ranch buyers perceive the tick tacky builders as good builders. They could not afford to upset the developer afraid that they might be expelled from the Ranch since the ticky tacky builders can’t create the brand by themselves on off the Ranch projects. They will do anything TIC want them to build. Dictated products built during the boom years have done well but immediately came to a halt during the last and this recession.
It was during the last recession that the developers relaxed their strict rules and guideline in order to promote land sale. Builders like Taylor Woodrow and Brookfield Homes took the opportunities during the last recession in pushing the envelope while other builders stood at the sideline and watched one good project after another revolutionized the fate of production housing. Builders began to copy. Architects also behaved the same way. Architects including our favorite Brightwater architect gave up their creativity because they are afraid of getting their hands slapped
This is my opinion and based on many years of observation. Others may disagree.
John Laing Homes follow rules and pleases the developers. JLH is a good politician and always stay on the good list. It rarely takes risk and jeopardizes its good standing so its products are safe and predictable. It will not go an extra mile to achieve merit.
William Lyon Homes is definitely below the notch of JLH. The company is MBA pedigree driven without the technical for aesthetic. They generate really good charts and graphs. Off the Ranch WLH have been known to cut corners and substitute lesser quality material to stay within budget. Developers need to push this builder to put in an extra effort. It is definitely situated in the middle of the pack. Developers need to watch this builder closely. They use Brightwater architect.
Taylor (Woodrow) Morrison was a company who did two landmark projects in Northwood Pointe Mahogany and Mayfield that opened doors for TIC innovation. Their products were the reason why homeowners grew dissatisfied with their homes and wanted to move up. The products were excellent and quality of construction was impeccable. The founding principals left the company early on and started Brookfield Homes. The next generation of executives did even better in branding this company for another 7 years before the mother company in London and Florida decided to ruin the company by hiring KB and Ryland executives to run the OC office. TWH is no longer the same as before.
Former TWH executive Tom Redwitz resigned and started a luxury line for John Laing Homes but it was difficult because the JLH reputation would drag down its luxury brand. Calculated strategy was to implement a “Laing Luxury” name, separate corporate identity and corporate office. Former TWH construction guru also joined the Laing Luxury team. IMO this is the builder who delivers semi-custom at production market. This builder practice purity in its architecture.
Brookfield is driven by creative energy in merchandizing and design. Its products and interior designs are cutting edge and appeal to the younger and hip crowds. Its vision and philosophy is driven by romance and lifestyle. Modernism intertwined with tradition is a unique eclectic blend. This builder takes risk and pushes the envelope. I like their products.
California Pacific Homes is driven by invention. They delivered the least expensive detached homes by solving a very complex jig saw puzzle in cluster housing. They are the expert in land utilization. Floor plan and site efficiency allowed them to increase density thus lowering selling price for a detached home. They are the best builder in entry level detached homes. They were responsible for introducing new housing species offering detached houses at condo prices. This builder got this detached condo program down to a science. No other builders can do it better.
Pulte every now and then has a project in Irvine. It is a national builder with stock holders. It never really gained much momentum in OC. because of poor quality and design.
KB would bribe to be on the Ranch.
Richmond American had couple of years doing some interesting projects. This builder is not consistent due to management turn over. There were some good B projects but the company has too much ups and downs. IMO it is not reliable.
Standard Pacific Homes is very old school. It is very strict in meeting the design template and construction. Home construction is emphasized over home design in Stan Pac’s philosophy. This company has a long history of good construction knowledge. It builds a good solid and practical house. I see no innovation, romance and breakthrough from this builder. The slot of screws for all their electrical face plate has to be vertical.
Fieldstone was a very good company during the 80’s. It was a company ran by philanthropists and Stanford MBAs. It set a very high standard in company ethic and company operation. It was a “text book” approach company. Its innovation was in management style and not in product design. Since the early 90’s its focus was in pioneering in entry level housing in new territories like inland empire, inland San Diego, Utah and Texas. Even though it’s headquartered in OC only 3 projects were built in Irvine in the last 15 years. Concordia, Quail Hills and Northwood II were the locations. It still utilizes plans from the 1980’s. The visionaries retired in the early 90’s and focused on missionary. The next generation ruined its good brand.
Pardee Homes has tried to enter into the luxury market but timing did not work in its favor. One of the former Taylor Woodrow marketing executive did make an impact in pushing of better quality design but did not gain much momentum. It is well known for incorporating green products and good construction specification. Most of its motto is building environmentally friendly products.
Centex Homes is another national builder. Large operation with regional offices often has its share of politic and too many chefs in the kitchen, Centex could have potential in doing something really great but the battleship operation stifled its innovation. It has more mediocre projects out in the inland empire tarnishing its reputation than good projects in Irvine branding its name. It is not known for innovative products.
There are builders out there who always pushed the envelope for creativity and to build a much clever house. Developers are very controlling and dictate the product for the builders. The “rebel” builders are not afraid of the developers because their creative products often elevated the branding of a community. They are the “Nordstrom” of a community. Nordstrom can afford to negotiate and ask for concession because a mall owner needs it for the success of the retail establishment while the mall would never need to demand or push this anchor to create a first class ambiance. Now substitute the mall owner with developers. The idea is the same.
The same comparison also goes to builders’ with a Mervyn reputation that the mall owner has to watch it like a hawk to make sure Mervyn is building their store with nicer material and create an acceptable ambiance so not to drag down the brand of the mall. Many mall owners just do not have the expertise to manage so this is when Simon or Westfield comes in to help to device a plan of action ranging from remodel, guest service team, accessorizing, signage, countless facets to brand a mall. Developers like TIC and Mission Viejo Company are self sufficient in branding their projects and managing bad builders.
Before the recession of the 90’s when developers were successful selling houses they dictated the products for all the builders. Westpark was an example of Ticky Tacky pink boxes looking all the same. Ticky Tacky builders built in Westpark and numerous planned communities. Being on the Ranch buyers perceive the tick tacky builders as good builders. They could not afford to upset the developer afraid that they might be expelled from the Ranch since the ticky tacky builders can’t create the brand by themselves on off the Ranch projects. They will do anything TIC want them to build. Dictated products built during the boom years have done well but immediately came to a halt during the last and this recession.
It was during the last recession that the developers relaxed their strict rules and guideline in order to promote land sale. Builders like Taylor Woodrow and Brookfield Homes took the opportunities during the last recession in pushing the envelope while other builders stood at the sideline and watched one good project after another revolutionized the fate of production housing. Builders began to copy. Architects also behaved the same way. Architects including our favorite Brightwater architect gave up their creativity because they are afraid of getting their hands slapped
This is my opinion and based on many years of observation. Others may disagree.
John Laing Homes follow rules and pleases the developers. JLH is a good politician and always stay on the good list. It rarely takes risk and jeopardizes its good standing so its products are safe and predictable. It will not go an extra mile to achieve merit.
William Lyon Homes is definitely below the notch of JLH. The company is MBA pedigree driven without the technical for aesthetic. They generate really good charts and graphs. Off the Ranch WLH have been known to cut corners and substitute lesser quality material to stay within budget. Developers need to push this builder to put in an extra effort. It is definitely situated in the middle of the pack. Developers need to watch this builder closely. They use Brightwater architect.
Taylor (Woodrow) Morrison was a company who did two landmark projects in Northwood Pointe Mahogany and Mayfield that opened doors for TIC innovation. Their products were the reason why homeowners grew dissatisfied with their homes and wanted to move up. The products were excellent and quality of construction was impeccable. The founding principals left the company early on and started Brookfield Homes. The next generation of executives did even better in branding this company for another 7 years before the mother company in London and Florida decided to ruin the company by hiring KB and Ryland executives to run the OC office. TWH is no longer the same as before.
Former TWH executive Tom Redwitz resigned and started a luxury line for John Laing Homes but it was difficult because the JLH reputation would drag down its luxury brand. Calculated strategy was to implement a “Laing Luxury” name, separate corporate identity and corporate office. Former TWH construction guru also joined the Laing Luxury team. IMO this is the builder who delivers semi-custom at production market. This builder practice purity in its architecture.
Brookfield is driven by creative energy in merchandizing and design. Its products and interior designs are cutting edge and appeal to the younger and hip crowds. Its vision and philosophy is driven by romance and lifestyle. Modernism intertwined with tradition is a unique eclectic blend. This builder takes risk and pushes the envelope. I like their products.
California Pacific Homes is driven by invention. They delivered the least expensive detached homes by solving a very complex jig saw puzzle in cluster housing. They are the expert in land utilization. Floor plan and site efficiency allowed them to increase density thus lowering selling price for a detached home. They are the best builder in entry level detached homes. They were responsible for introducing new housing species offering detached houses at condo prices. This builder got this detached condo program down to a science. No other builders can do it better.
Pulte every now and then has a project in Irvine. It is a national builder with stock holders. It never really gained much momentum in OC. because of poor quality and design.
KB would bribe to be on the Ranch.
Richmond American had couple of years doing some interesting projects. This builder is not consistent due to management turn over. There were some good B projects but the company has too much ups and downs. IMO it is not reliable.
Standard Pacific Homes is very old school. It is very strict in meeting the design template and construction. Home construction is emphasized over home design in Stan Pac’s philosophy. This company has a long history of good construction knowledge. It builds a good solid and practical house. I see no innovation, romance and breakthrough from this builder. The slot of screws for all their electrical face plate has to be vertical.
Fieldstone was a very good company during the 80’s. It was a company ran by philanthropists and Stanford MBAs. It set a very high standard in company ethic and company operation. It was a “text book” approach company. Its innovation was in management style and not in product design. Since the early 90’s its focus was in pioneering in entry level housing in new territories like inland empire, inland San Diego, Utah and Texas. Even though it’s headquartered in OC only 3 projects were built in Irvine in the last 15 years. Concordia, Quail Hills and Northwood II were the locations. It still utilizes plans from the 1980’s. The visionaries retired in the early 90’s and focused on missionary. The next generation ruined its good brand.
Pardee Homes has tried to enter into the luxury market but timing did not work in its favor. One of the former Taylor Woodrow marketing executive did make an impact in pushing of better quality design but did not gain much momentum. It is well known for incorporating green products and good construction specification. Most of its motto is building environmentally friendly products.
Centex Homes is another national builder. Large operation with regional offices often has its share of politic and too many chefs in the kitchen, Centex could have potential in doing something really great but the battleship operation stifled its innovation. It has more mediocre projects out in the inland empire tarnishing its reputation than good projects in Irvine branding its name. It is not known for innovative products.
IACRenter_IHB
New member
Hi BK,
I also remember in previous posts that people seemed to like S&S Construction (Shapell). What is your opinion of them? They currently have projects in Yorba Linda and Laguna Niguel.
I also remember in previous posts that people seemed to like S&S Construction (Shapell). What is your opinion of them? They currently have projects in Yorba Linda and Laguna Niguel.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
Shea has been around for a long time. The company was founded as a construction company contracted for government work. During the PWA movement (Public Work Administration) Shea did most of the civil construction work including the Golden Gate Bridge Hoover Dam during the 30's. Shea became a home builder when civil commission dried up. Its top tier engineer thinkers and management responsible for the clever methodology and inventive technique were humiliated when they had to work with 2x4s and pounding nails. It was obvious that they were over qualified.
Shea over the years changed hand many times and lost much of the ingenuity and passion in invention. Very few knew of its legacy. Shea is a survivor of the old boys club. It’s circle of peers like Broadmoor. Baldwin, Lusk, Lewis, JM Peters, Akins, Covington, and others have either sold or left the home building business. The old fashion way of running these empires with pencil and paper just did not work. During the 80’s family business were forced to relinquish its control over to share holders and outside partners with MBAs and CPA management and accounting experience. Computer technology and system intimidated many old timers with hammer in their back pocket. Shea IMO today is a C+ builder not well known for anything. Mundane products and cheap spec level for all its construction. It rarely wins awards. The Reserve next to Floral Park is an insult to the community and ruined the freeway ambiance.
Shea, Warmington, and Shapell all made the painful transition. Luckily for Warmington the family business sent their heirs to proper business schools acquiring the proper trainings to inherit the family business. Bill Warmington the founder was the contractor for many famous motion picture stars like Mary Pickford, Carole Lombard, Shirley Temple, Rudolph Valentino, and Charley Chaplin during the golden era of Hollywood during the teens and 20’s. He worked with famous architects like Wallace Neff and Paul Williams. Warmington unfortunately down to the current generation has all girls and they were not properly groomed for the business. The girls’ husbands are being chaperoned to learn the family business. Quality and design suffered during the last 10 years and Bill is not restful in his grave.
I have only one word for Lennar: Astoria!! This company has an interesting campaign “Ei” everything included. It is all about selling the cosmetic finishes. It will sell you a Ferrari on a VW chassis. The budget has to be stripped from the bone to pay for the skin. I was in a meeting and this company did not care about good design and their interest was to meet and exceed the projected sale figures. Lennar and Lyon have known to lowering prices in subsequent phases and pissed off home owners in many communities such as VOC. Other responsible builders would terminate the product and redesign something different on the remainder of the vacant land then lower the selling price just to avoid the angry crowd.
DR Horton and The Olsen Company are on my bad builder list. Because they are working with unconventional product type such as podium and carriage units and both require very strict water proofing and flashing details. Construction is way too complicated and too many movement in a structure that joints will fall apart. Very few builders can execute a complicated building well. Commercial builders with commercial detailing is best for these building type and residential detailing meant for houses will not adapt well for their products.
Here is the BK list of builders that met my high expectations and standard in design and construction based on my experience and observation. Their products are evident that they took pride in their creation and gone the extra mile when not required to deliver a product that continue to peak my interest. I will visit the model homes from these builders even though I have no intention to buy. Their models are worthy of my time because I became smarter myself having analyze them from a floor plan, site integration, merchandizing and landscape design perspective.
Brookfield Homes
California Pacific Homes
Laing Luxury
Standard Pacific
Shea over the years changed hand many times and lost much of the ingenuity and passion in invention. Very few knew of its legacy. Shea is a survivor of the old boys club. It’s circle of peers like Broadmoor. Baldwin, Lusk, Lewis, JM Peters, Akins, Covington, and others have either sold or left the home building business. The old fashion way of running these empires with pencil and paper just did not work. During the 80’s family business were forced to relinquish its control over to share holders and outside partners with MBAs and CPA management and accounting experience. Computer technology and system intimidated many old timers with hammer in their back pocket. Shea IMO today is a C+ builder not well known for anything. Mundane products and cheap spec level for all its construction. It rarely wins awards. The Reserve next to Floral Park is an insult to the community and ruined the freeway ambiance.
Shea, Warmington, and Shapell all made the painful transition. Luckily for Warmington the family business sent their heirs to proper business schools acquiring the proper trainings to inherit the family business. Bill Warmington the founder was the contractor for many famous motion picture stars like Mary Pickford, Carole Lombard, Shirley Temple, Rudolph Valentino, and Charley Chaplin during the golden era of Hollywood during the teens and 20’s. He worked with famous architects like Wallace Neff and Paul Williams. Warmington unfortunately down to the current generation has all girls and they were not properly groomed for the business. The girls’ husbands are being chaperoned to learn the family business. Quality and design suffered during the last 10 years and Bill is not restful in his grave.
I have only one word for Lennar: Astoria!! This company has an interesting campaign “Ei” everything included. It is all about selling the cosmetic finishes. It will sell you a Ferrari on a VW chassis. The budget has to be stripped from the bone to pay for the skin. I was in a meeting and this company did not care about good design and their interest was to meet and exceed the projected sale figures. Lennar and Lyon have known to lowering prices in subsequent phases and pissed off home owners in many communities such as VOC. Other responsible builders would terminate the product and redesign something different on the remainder of the vacant land then lower the selling price just to avoid the angry crowd.
DR Horton and The Olsen Company are on my bad builder list. Because they are working with unconventional product type such as podium and carriage units and both require very strict water proofing and flashing details. Construction is way too complicated and too many movement in a structure that joints will fall apart. Very few builders can execute a complicated building well. Commercial builders with commercial detailing is best for these building type and residential detailing meant for houses will not adapt well for their products.
Here is the BK list of builders that met my high expectations and standard in design and construction based on my experience and observation. Their products are evident that they took pride in their creation and gone the extra mile when not required to deliver a product that continue to peak my interest. I will visit the model homes from these builders even though I have no intention to buy. Their models are worthy of my time because I became smarter myself having analyze them from a floor plan, site integration, merchandizing and landscape design perspective.
Brookfield Homes
California Pacific Homes
Laing Luxury
Standard Pacific
bkshopr_IHB
New member
IACRenter said:
Research my posts and read them again. You will find your answer.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
Here is my previous post about Shapell.
Shapell and Shapell was the pioneer in merchant housing. Nathan Shapell was the founder of this company when he had just arrived in America after his Halocaust ordeal. This company pride itself for being there for 3 generations of buyers since the late 40’s. Its slogan was "other companies come and go but Shapell will always be here to stand behind its products". Nathan passed away last March at the age 84 I think. This company does not believe in innovation but extreme practicality. Behind Nathan’s desk was a giant pull out drawer storage for all the floor plans that he built over the last ½ century. His plans were labeled with a 4 digit number that represent the footage like plan 2805.
Over the last 30 years there has been little or no innovation for this company. This company is well connected politically to our government system from the LA city hall to the White House. It contributed huge money to election and the Jewish Holocaust museums across America such as the one in DC and the Museum of Tolerance on Olympic Blvd. in West LA. Projects are approved easily in LA County for Shapell He knew and supported every politician. Nathan Shapell is the cleverest person that I knew. He bought land in far away places when the locations were considered undesirable. He knew the only way to build a good house is not by innovation but lowest price compared to the competition. He can afford to do it by having the cheap land basis. He bought a lot of land in Laguna Niguel, Yorba Linda, Chatsworth, Porter Ranch, Diamond Bar, Gale Ranch in Northern Ca, and many other places back in the early 50’s.
Patience was his virtue. While Laguna Niguel and Yorba Linda were during it’s hey days back during the 80’s. Everyone was buying at these two desirable locations. The competitions were fierce with good products and innovative designs. Shapell developed very little of his land. He said I will come back 20 years later when these neighborhoods matured and I will sell homes to their children. By then I can monopolize the market being the only builder there. Many parents are helping their children to buy a home today so that the children and grand children could be living close to them. He still built homes with 1980s floor plan and he only changed the outside look. Even the unskilled labor could build a good house after all he had built several thousands of the same houses over the last decade. Less innovation means having no mistakes. He can afford to lower his price since land was cheap. How can the competition compete when he has the best matured locations, close to the root of the family, cheap price, solidly product, and floor plan that is similar to mom and dads? He stocked most of the construction parts and plans so he does not need to pay fees to architects and subs.
S&S is currently developing much of its matures neighborhood locations like Laguna Niguel and Yorba Linda. His philosophy was the first thing that the buyers touch and see are the most important to set their buying mood. The feel of the front door knob and the big wow when ones open the front door sets the tone of their emotion. His buyers have been mostly Chinese and Jewish. Both are good with finance and practicality. Aesthetic for this particular demographic is not important. Function and durability are paramount.
Nathan personally checked for all specification of construction parts and component for their manufacturing origins. Any parts, distribution or design affiliates came from Germany and Japan he would not install them. He and his staff over the years drove only American made cars like Cadillac and Lincoln. Japanese and German made cars were not purchased. He owned most of the real estates between 4000 and 6000 block of Wilshire Blvd. Mercedes a BMW dealership of Beverly Hills were not able to establish their showroom in the vicinity of his properties. He would not install the top bath fixture components in his high end home because they are all German made. He would not install a rain shower in the master shower because it reminded him of his concentration camp experience. He never removed his prisoner tattooed number from his arm because it was a reminder of his pain and his race. German or Japanese desent consultants were heavily screened for their belief. Most were family members and friends of the family. Company is stagnant due to conflict of interest of family members and no incentive for innovation since everyone has job security.
Since his passing on a cruise I wanted to write something about him and may be through this forum his legacy and philosophy could be shared and hopefully enrich the knowledge of the home buyers out there.
Shapell and Shapell was the pioneer in merchant housing. Nathan Shapell was the founder of this company when he had just arrived in America after his Halocaust ordeal. This company pride itself for being there for 3 generations of buyers since the late 40’s. Its slogan was "other companies come and go but Shapell will always be here to stand behind its products". Nathan passed away last March at the age 84 I think. This company does not believe in innovation but extreme practicality. Behind Nathan’s desk was a giant pull out drawer storage for all the floor plans that he built over the last ½ century. His plans were labeled with a 4 digit number that represent the footage like plan 2805.
Over the last 30 years there has been little or no innovation for this company. This company is well connected politically to our government system from the LA city hall to the White House. It contributed huge money to election and the Jewish Holocaust museums across America such as the one in DC and the Museum of Tolerance on Olympic Blvd. in West LA. Projects are approved easily in LA County for Shapell He knew and supported every politician. Nathan Shapell is the cleverest person that I knew. He bought land in far away places when the locations were considered undesirable. He knew the only way to build a good house is not by innovation but lowest price compared to the competition. He can afford to do it by having the cheap land basis. He bought a lot of land in Laguna Niguel, Yorba Linda, Chatsworth, Porter Ranch, Diamond Bar, Gale Ranch in Northern Ca, and many other places back in the early 50’s.
Patience was his virtue. While Laguna Niguel and Yorba Linda were during it’s hey days back during the 80’s. Everyone was buying at these two desirable locations. The competitions were fierce with good products and innovative designs. Shapell developed very little of his land. He said I will come back 20 years later when these neighborhoods matured and I will sell homes to their children. By then I can monopolize the market being the only builder there. Many parents are helping their children to buy a home today so that the children and grand children could be living close to them. He still built homes with 1980s floor plan and he only changed the outside look. Even the unskilled labor could build a good house after all he had built several thousands of the same houses over the last decade. Less innovation means having no mistakes. He can afford to lower his price since land was cheap. How can the competition compete when he has the best matured locations, close to the root of the family, cheap price, solidly product, and floor plan that is similar to mom and dads? He stocked most of the construction parts and plans so he does not need to pay fees to architects and subs.
S&S is currently developing much of its matures neighborhood locations like Laguna Niguel and Yorba Linda. His philosophy was the first thing that the buyers touch and see are the most important to set their buying mood. The feel of the front door knob and the big wow when ones open the front door sets the tone of their emotion. His buyers have been mostly Chinese and Jewish. Both are good with finance and practicality. Aesthetic for this particular demographic is not important. Function and durability are paramount.
Nathan personally checked for all specification of construction parts and component for their manufacturing origins. Any parts, distribution or design affiliates came from Germany and Japan he would not install them. He and his staff over the years drove only American made cars like Cadillac and Lincoln. Japanese and German made cars were not purchased. He owned most of the real estates between 4000 and 6000 block of Wilshire Blvd. Mercedes a BMW dealership of Beverly Hills were not able to establish their showroom in the vicinity of his properties. He would not install the top bath fixture components in his high end home because they are all German made. He would not install a rain shower in the master shower because it reminded him of his concentration camp experience. He never removed his prisoner tattooed number from his arm because it was a reminder of his pain and his race. German or Japanese desent consultants were heavily screened for their belief. Most were family members and friends of the family. Company is stagnant due to conflict of interest of family members and no incentive for innovation since everyone has job security.
Since his passing on a cruise I wanted to write something about him and may be through this forum his legacy and philosophy could be shared and hopefully enrich the knowledge of the home buyers out there.
High Gravity_IHB
New member
bkshopr said:
I think the signature S&S feature is the giant bonus room over the 3 car garage. Of the many S&S homes I've visited, I haven't seen any good uses for the huge bonus room.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
High Gravity said:
S&S did that through out FV with a deck over the garage out at the front of a house. The deck was not covered. The deck material was sinfully ugly. Some sandpaper sprayed on texture and the deck sound hollow and not solid. The waist high wall on 3 sides trapped leaves, dirt and soot. Water leaked into the garage below. Vietnamese in FV love these home because they can do room additions at the deck and house extended families. The 3 car garages with driveways could park 6 cars.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
Number one rule avoid builders with projects in Inland Empire or desert communities because the chances are the same crew who did construction specification for those places likely use the same template for OC homes. Seldom could a builder offers 2 different qualities for different locations. Walmart will never be able to move up to luxury retail. Hyundai will never be able to produce luxury cars. McDonalds will never be able to offer fine dining. The same also applies to builders.
bkshopr_IHB
New member
awgee said:
TWH has done amazing projects: Mar Fiore in Aviara, Palacio in Marina Hills, Woodlands in Valencia, Mahogony, Mayfield and Rosegate in Northwood Pointe, Parazul in Newport Coast, Cambria in North Park, Watermark in Crystal Cove, Villa in Shady Canyon, Belcara in Newport Coast, Casita in Santaluz, Weatherly in Coto, Amberly Lane in Oak knoll district in Ladera Ranch, Fairbank Highland in Fairbank Ranch and Moraga in the Bay Area.
Their subsequent projects were less impressive and misguided under the new regime in Novato, Calabasas, Corona and other places. For all the positive and some negatives TMH is on my neutral list. I have not seen enough of its track record under the new management to draw my conclusion.
SoCal78_IHB
New member
awgee said:
On page 1 here is what he wrote about TWH:
"Taylor (Woodrow) Morrison was a company who did two landmark projects in Northwood Pointe Mahogany and Mayfield that opened doors for TIC innovation. Their products were the reason why homeowners grew dissatisfied with their homes and wanted to move up. The products were excellent and quality of construction was impeccable. The founding principals left the company early on and started Brookfield Homes. The next generation of executives did even better in branding this company for another 7 years before the mother company in London and Florida decided to ruin the company by hiring KB and Ryland executives to run the OC office. TWH is no longer the same as before."
... Thanks for all this info, Bk. I have spent half the morning taking notes on all of it.