Interest Rate Deduction

Gohabsgo_IHB

New member
Tax specialists, I need your help understanding this topic.



I'd like to understadn what qualifies for the interest rate deduction?

Does that apply to federal and state return?

Doesn't state tax applies toward the federal exemption?



I'm asking because of the examples IR uses in his calculator and in today's post. I understand that not everybody will benefit from this. But if you live in a state like CA and make decent money, wouldn't you benefit from this?



Thanks for clarifying this for me.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232668176]Tax specialists, I need your help understanding this topic.



I'd like to understadn what qualifies for the interest rate deduction?

</blockquote>
Within certain limitations, the mortgage interest you pay on your residence and on a second home.



[quote author="Roo" date=1232668176]

Does that apply to federal and state return?

</blockquote>
Mortgage interest which qualifies for federal deductibility also qualifies for state deductibility.

[quote author="Roo" date=1232668176]

Doesn't state tax applies toward the federal exemption?

</blockquote>
You will need to be more specific or more clear in what you are referring to.

Which state tax? There are many.

And what federal exemption? There are many, and none appear to applicable to this subject.



[quote author="Roo" date=1232668176]



I'm asking because of the examples IR uses in his calculator and in today's post. I understand that not everybody will benefit from this. But if you live in a state like CA and make decent money, wouldn't you benefit from this?

</blockquote>
Malibu Renter's quiz was just a quiz about your knowledge. It is not indicative of your tax situation or anybody else's. He simplified the example to be able to ask specific questions. Do not take his example as tax code.

But, it does illustrate a point that many folks who think the mortgage interest deduction will benefit them greatly do not benefit as much as they think. If you are already receiving the standard deduction of $11,800, how much more does it benefit you to pay interest of $36,000 per year?

[quote author="Roo" date=1232668176]

Thanks for clarifying this for me.</blockquote>
You're welcome.
 
And the post brings up an issue which I have addressed before, but wish to repeat.



There is <strong>NO</strong> tax advantage to owning over renting.



The deductions available as a result of owning a personal residence, including the cap gains exemption, are discounted into the price of the home.

You are bidding against others who all have the same considerations, (tax issues), thus you are paying for the deductions.



And all tax issues and considerations are discounted into the price of rent.



You can calculate all day long, but as long as rent and home ownership are free market decisions, there is <strong>NO</strong> tax advantage to owning over renting.

The only potential tax advantage is due to timing the market and one's ability to maximize the cap gains exemption and the decrease in property taxes due to currency devaluation and prop 13.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1232668837]Malibu Renter's quiz was just a quiz about your knowledge. It is not indicative of your tax situation or anybody else's. He simplified the example to be able to ask specific questions. Do not take his example as tax code.

But, it does illustrate a point that many folks who think the mortgage interest deduction will benefit them greatly do not benefit as much as they think. If you are already receiving the standard deduction of $11,800, how much more does it benefit you to pay interest of $36,000 per year?

</blockquote>


The quiz question over simplified the tax deduction issue and basically made the assumption that their were no state tax payments/withholdings that could be used for a potential itemized deduction along with mortgage interest. More often that not in CA, that is not the case. A single person in CA making $80K or so will pay almost enough state taxes to make itemizing beneficial, so in their case, any mortgage interest would create an additional deduction for them.
 
<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/rent-versus-own/">IR's Blog Post about this subject</a>



"Tax Savings



There are two other variables people often consider when evaluating the cost of ownership that is not included in the prior list: income tax savings and lost downpayment interest. When a borrower takes out a home loan, the interest is tax deductible up to a certain amount. For borrowers in the highest marginal tax bracket, the savings can be significant, and this can make a dramatic difference in the true cost of ownership. However, this benefit diminishes over time as the loan is paid off and the interest decreases. Plus, contrary to popular belief, it is never good financial planning to spend $100 to save $25 in taxes. Also, these benefits are almost universally overestimated by people considering a home purchase. A renter considering home ownership will need to remember they will be giving up the standard deduction when they itemize to obtain the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction (HMID). A "married filing jointly" taxpayer will forgo a $10,700 deduction in 2007. This reduces the net impact of the HMID. Anecdotally, even those in the highest tax brackets usually do not get more than a 25% tax savings."



I thought that taxes paid to the State count towards the federal exemption. Therefore, you don't need to pay that much interest to itemize. I'm sure many people already itemize, therefore would already fully benefit from the interest rate deduction.



I don't understand why IR suggest to take 10% out of your marginal rate to calculate your deduction.



As you can tell I am no expert in taxes, but maybe I would need to see a simple example to understand better.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232685674]<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/rent-versus-own/">IR's Blog Post about this subject</a>



"Tax Savings



There are two other variables people often consider when evaluating the cost of ownership that is not included in the prior list: income tax savings and lost downpayment interest. When a borrower takes out a home loan, the interest is tax deductible up to a certain amount. For borrowers in the highest marginal tax bracket, the savings can be significant, and this can make a dramatic difference in the true cost of ownership. However, this benefit diminishes over time as the loan is paid off and the interest decreases. Plus, contrary to popular belief, it is never good financial planning to spend $100 to save $25 in taxes. Also, these benefits are almost universally overestimated by people considering a home purchase. A renter considering home ownership will need to remember they will be giving up the standard deduction when they itemize to obtain the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction (HMID). A "married filing jointly" taxpayer will forgo a $10,700 deduction in 2007. This reduces the net impact of the HMID. Anecdotally, even those in the highest tax brackets usually do not get more than a 25% tax savings."



I thought that taxes paid to the State count towards the federal exemption. Therefore, you don't need to pay that much interest to itemize. I'm sure many people already itemize, therefore would already fully benefit from the interest rate deduction.



I don't understand why IR suggest to take 10% out of your marginal rate to calculate your deduction.



As you can tell I am no expert in taxes, but maybe I would need to see a simple example to understand better.</blockquote>


Roo - I want to help you, but you have to answer my question.



What state tax? There are many state taxes. Which are you refering to?

What federal exemption? There are many types of federal exemptions, but as far as I can tell, none of them are applicable to your first post.
 
Awgee - i believe Roo is referring to state income taxes, since you can deduct those on your federal return.
 
[quote author="qwerty" date=1232695714]Awgee - i believe Roo is referring to state income taxes, since you can deduct those on your federal return.</blockquote>


I think so to, but in my business I have learned not to assume what I think may be so. And I am trying to help Roo figure out what he or she is thinking about. Many times folks have a misunderstanding of tax issues because of their preconceived notions or what they have been told. It seems to be beneficial to help folks discover the truth as opposed to just being told what is and they will be less susceptible to what others tell them.

The answer to Roo's question has already been answered in this thread, but because Roo is a bit confused, he or she does not yet recognize it.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1232698215][quote author="qwerty" date=1232695714]Awgee - i believe Roo is referring to state income taxes, since you can deduct those on your federal return.</blockquote>


I think so to, but in my business I have learned not to assume what I think may be so. And I am trying to help Roo figure out what he or she is thinking about. Many times folks have a misunderstanding of tax issues because of their preconceived notions or what they have been told. It seems to be beneficial to help folks discover the truth as opposed to just being told what is and they will be less susceptible to what others tell them.

The answer to Roo's question has already been answered in this thread, but because Roo is a bit confused, he or she does not yet recognize it.</blockquote>


Yes, state income tax.



Given that state income tax counts toward the federal deduction, the interest rate is fully deductible (if you already pay enough state taxes). Also, on the CA state side, there's no exemption

<a href="http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_statetaxrate_CA.html">link</a>, only a progressive rate. Therefore, you would save the entire deductability.



Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232700919]





Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!</blockquote>


that is correct.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232700919][quote author="awgee" date=1232698215][quote author="qwerty" date=1232695714]Awgee - i believe Roo is referring to state income taxes, since you can deduct those on your federal return.</blockquote>


I think so to, but in my business I have learned not to assume what I think may be so. And I am trying to help Roo figure out what he or she is thinking about. Many times folks have a misunderstanding of tax issues because of their preconceived notions or what they have been told. It seems to be beneficial to help folks discover the truth as opposed to just being told what is and they will be less susceptible to what others tell them.

The answer to Roo's question has already been answered in this thread, but because Roo is a bit confused, he or she does not yet recognize it.</blockquote>


Yes, state income tax.



Given that state income tax counts toward the federal deduction, the interest rate is fully deductible (if you already pay enough state taxes). Also, on the CA state side, there's no exemption

<a href="http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_statetaxrate_CA.html">link</a>, only a progressive rate. Therefore, you would save the entire deductability.



Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!</blockquote>


An exemption is different than a deduction.

The mortgage interest may be deductible entirely or it may not depending on income, amount of mortgage, and amount of HELOC.

Entirely beneficial? Even if the interest is entirely deductible, it may be beneficial or it may not. If your total itemized deductions are more than your standard deduction, it is probably advantageous to itemize.

For high income earners, AMT, (alternative minimum tax), or high income thresholds may limit deductions resulting in an advantage to using the standard deduction, even though as you phrase it, "you make enough".

Bottom line, there is no one answer to your question. It all depends on the taxpayers situation. Low income can make the standard deduction advantageous and high income can make the standard deduction advantageous. Or a middle range income with total itemized deductions less that the standard deduction can make the standard deduction advantageous.

It is not that you do not know much on taxes. It is that tax code is infinitely complicated.
 
[quote author="qwerty" date=1232701291][quote author="Roo" date=1232700919]





Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!</blockquote>


that is correct.</blockquote>


Actually, it is not.
 
In the spirit of this thread, I'll contribute an article that I found some moons ago.

Enjoy,

-IR2

===========================



full article, by Roger Lowenstein: <strong><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/magazine/305deduction.1.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&adxnnlx=1232694079-ZxzaMu9Y3VCQR8qhAmaAYw">A Brief History of the Mortgage-Interest Deduction</a></strong>.



Who Needs the Mortgage-Interest Deduction?

By ROGER LOWENSTEIN

Published: March 5, 2006



One of the first financial lessons I learned from my father was that when you buy a house, you get a tax break from deducting the interest on your mortgage. Therefore, he would explain as if it were as natural as pivoting at second base on a throw from shortstop, a person could afford to pay more for a house that he owned than he would on a residence that he was only renting and on which he didn't get the tax break.



I didn't know why the government had chosen to influence my decision in this manner, and even less did I consider how it might affect the people on the other side ? the people who might be selling me a house, or lending me the money, or, for that matter, the guy who might have liked to have rented me an apartment if the Internal Revenue Code hadn't been tilted against him.



But it was a lesson I took to heart. When I was considering buying my very first dwelling, a 1BR w/EIK on West 79th Street with, for those who were sufficiently agile, a faint glimpse of the Hudson River, I vaguely remember that I scratched out the monthly cost of the mortgage payment, after which Dad made some quick calculations to demonstrate that the "after-tax cost" of the mortgage actually was within my budget.



From then on, deducting the interest became an indispensable tactic (in fact, it was the only tactic I had) in my forays into real estate. The houses got steadily bigger, and so did the mortgages. Last year, when my new wife and I bought a modern colonial in suburban Boston that was intended to accommodate a majority of the children we had accumulated from our first marriages, not to mention a plurality of our itinerant relatives, I took out an "interest only" mortgage, a big attraction of which was that the payments (all interest, no principal) were entirely deductible.



By then, I did know something about what the government was up to. Or at least I thought I did. Some fellow in the Treasury Department had long ago decided it would be a good thing for families like ours not to suffer through our lives as tenants. In fact, he (whoever he was) decided it would be good for our neighbors and for society in general if we could be owners and not just dwellers. In early America, only those who owned property were eligible to vote, and the notion that tenants were only provisional citizens, or at least had a lesser stake in things, has somehow endured. According to studies, people who own their homes take better care of them; they fix the roof more often and plant more lilacs. They join more clubs and community groups; they vote more often; they move around less often; and their kids do better in school. The government is subsidizing my house so I will do more gardening. Or something like that.



But when exactly did the interest deduction begin? I had often heard my father rhapsodize about the G.I. Bill of Rights, which was enacted in 1944, when he was serving in the Pacific, and which a few years later was paying his tuition at law school; the mortgage-interest deduction came to be joined in my mind as an adjunct piece of social policy. One got you an education and the other got you a house: together, they bought entree to the middle class.



Since the great migration to the suburbs also occurred after World War II, I assumed that the interest deduction was of a similar postwar vintage. Over the years, it has become an American folk legend: the government invented the mortgage-interest deduction to help people buy their own homes, and the level of homeownership has risen ever since.



<strong>What part of the legend is true? Basically, none of it.</strong>

...



The first modern federal income tax was created in 1894. Interest - all forms of interest - was deductible; the Supreme Court, however, quickly ruled that the tax was unconstitutional. In 1913, the Constitution was amended and a new income tax was enacted. Once again, interest was deductible.



There is no evidence, however, that Congress thought much about this provision. It certainly wasn't thinking of the interest deduction as a stepping-stone to middle-class homeownership, because the tax excluded the first $3,000 (or for married couples, $4,000) of income; less than 1 percent of the population earned more than that. The people paying taxes - Andrew Carnegie and such - did not need the deduction to afford their homes or their yachts.



There is another reason Congress could not have had homeownership in mind. The great majority of people who owned a home did not have a mortgage. The exceptions were farmers. But most folks bought their homes with cash; they had no mortgage interest to deduct.



When Congress made interest deductible, it was probably thinking of business interest. Just as today, the aim was to tax a business's profits after expenses had been netted out, and interest was an expense like any other. In a nation of small proprietors, basically all interest looked like business interest. Whether it was interest on a farm mortgage, or interest on a loan to purchase a tractor, or interest charged to a general store that purchased its inventory on credit, it all would have looked like a business expense. Credit cards did not exist. So Congress just said, "Deduct it."



It was not until the 1920's and the spread of the automobile that home mortgages outnumbered farm mortgages. In the 1930's, the mortgage industry got a huge assist from the feds - not from the tax deduction, but from agencies like the Federal Housing Administration, which insured 30-year loans, and, over time, the newly created Federal National Mortgage Association, or Fannie Mae. Before then, the corner bank would issue a mortgage and wait for the homeowner to pay them back; now savings and loans could replenish their capital by selling their mortgages to Fannie Mae - meaning they could turn around and issue a new mortgage to someone else.

...



In any case, the growth of credit cards in the 70's began to turn the interest deduction into a serious loophole. People were becoming plastic junkies; if you paid for a washing machine on credit, the I.R.S. would give you a subsidy. By the 1980's, this threatened the entire system of revenue collection. There was some talk that the Treasury was looking at eliminating deductions, including, possibly, the interest deduction. Economists thought it was a good idea. "Tax economists tend to be skeptical about preferences in the tax," says Joseph Thorndike, the director of the Tax History Project at the nonpartisan Tax Analysts. "Are they targeted to the right people? We give tax breaks for college; do we send more kids to college or help middle-class kids who are going to college anyway?" Fine and well, but was an elected official really going to risk fooling with the mortgage deduction?



President Reagan was not. Addressing the National Association of Realtors in 1984, he said, "I want you to know that we will preserve the part of the American dream which the home-mortgage-interest deduction symbolizes." He didn't mention that it also symbolized the American love affair with debt; after all, it encourages people to pay for their homes with a mortgage instead of with equity. Two years later, in the tax-reform act of 1986, Congress ended the deductibility of interest on credit-card and other consumer loans; it left the mortgage deduction in place.



But Congress did set a cap. Today, a taxpayer can deduct the interest on mortgages worth up to a total of $1 million on his or her first or second homes. Also, you can deduct up to $100,000 on a home-equity loan. (And what prevents you from using a home-equity line to buy a flat-screen TV and then deducting the interest? Absolutely nothing; go for it.)



At the beginning of 2005, flush from his election victory, President Bush envisioned another major tax reform, somewhat similar to that of 1986. Simplifying the tax code was a major goal, as was winnowing out the tax breaks that were again eating a hole through the Treasury. Bush appointed a nine-member, bipartisan panel to drum up a proposal. The president ordered the panel to "recognize the importance of homeownership." People figured the interest deduction was off limits.

...



One reason is that homeownership in the U.S. is about the same as it is in Canada, Australia and England, where interest isn't deductible. Another reason is just common sense. If you want to increase homeownership, you have to do something so that renters become owners. But just over two-thirds of all taxpayers, including most renters, don't itemize their deductions, generally because they don't earn enough; they simply take the "standard deduction." The mortgage deduction doesn't help them.

...



<strong>You can think of the mortgage deduction as a distortion that has helped potential home sellers ? not buyers or owners ? and this is why the housing industry is so agitated.</strong> Research suggests that without the deduction, people would still buy the houses they do now; they would just cost a little less. In effect, the market would adjust downward to reflect some of the decrease in buyers' purchasing power.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1232715290][quote author="qwerty" date=1232701291][quote author="Roo" date=1232700919]





Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!</blockquote>


that is correct.</blockquote>


Actually, it is not.</blockquote>


What is incorrect about that awgee? Use of the word beneficial? It is indeed <u>possible</u> that if you make enough income (yes that is poorly phrased), every dollar of mortage interest would create a potential deduction at your marginal tax rate.
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1232729137][quote author="awgee" date=1232715290][quote author="qwerty" date=1232701291][quote author="Roo" date=1232700919]





Quick question, if you make enough, it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate. Is that correct?



FYI - I'm a he that obviously doesn't know much on taxes!</blockquote>


that is correct.</blockquote>


Actually, it is not.</blockquote>


What is incorrect about that awgee? Use of the word beneficial? It is indeed <u>possible</u> that if you make enough income (yes that is poorly phrased), every dollar of mortage interest would create a potential deduction at your marginal tax rate.</blockquote>


It is because Roo asked if <em>"it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate"</em>.

It is the word "entirely".

When calculating the advantage of itemizing over standard, one must always subtract the applicable standard deduction from the total allowable itemized deductions, therefore the advantage of any itemized deduction, including MI, is only some percentage of it's entered amount.



That is what I thought he meant by entirely. You?

But more importantly the advantage of the MI deduction is dependent upon each taxpayers situation.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1232745961]



It is because Roo asked if <em>"it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate"</em>.

It is the word "entirely".

When calculating the advantage of itemizing over standard, one must always subtract the applicable standard deduction from the total allowable itemized deductions, therefore the advantage of any itemized deduction, including MI, is only some percentage of it's entered amount.



That is what I thought he meant by entirely. You?

But more importantly the advantage of the MI deduction is dependent upon each taxpayers situation.</blockquote>


My take on Roo's question was essentially that if someone was already itemizing, i.e. had enough income such that state tax expenses already made itemizing beneficial vs. taking the standard deduction without the MI, would it be possible the MI would generate a deduction at marginal rates? In that case, wouldn't subtracting the standard deduction in terms of determining tax advantage not make sense?



In our personal tax situation, that is almost exactly the case although a part of the MI deduction would get phased out...
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1232760954][quote author="awgee" date=1232745961]



It is because Roo asked if <em>"it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate"</em>.

It is the word "entirely".

When calculating the advantage of itemizing over standard, one must always subtract the applicable standard deduction from the total allowable itemized deductions, therefore the advantage of any itemized deduction, including MI, is only some percentage of it's entered amount.



That is what I thought he meant by entirely. You?

But more importantly the advantage of the MI deduction is dependent upon each taxpayers situation.</blockquote>


My take on Roo's question was essentially that if someone was already itemizing, i.e. had enough income such that state tax expenses already made itemizing beneficial vs. taking the standard deduction without the MI, would it be possible the MI would generate a deduction at marginal rates? In that case, wouldn't subtracting the standard deduction in terms of determining tax advantage not make sense?



In our personal tax situation, that is almost exactly the case although a part of the MI deduction would get phased out...</blockquote>
Oh.

Ipo - Have you ever considered becoming an Enrolled Agent?

We have a saying. If you put 3 Enrolled Agents in a room and give them 1 tax question, the result will be 7 opinions, and all 3 agents will agree on 1 of those 7 opinions.
 
[quote author="ipoplaya" date=1232760954][quote author="awgee" date=1232745961]



It is because Roo asked if <em>"it's possible that interest rate deduction would be entirely beneficial and that it would be applicable to your marginal tax rate"</em>.

It is the word "entirely".

When calculating the advantage of itemizing over standard, one must always subtract the applicable standard deduction from the total allowable itemized deductions, therefore the advantage of any itemized deduction, including MI, is only some percentage of it's entered amount.



That is what I thought he meant by entirely. You?

But more importantly the advantage of the MI deduction is dependent upon each taxpayers situation.</blockquote>


My take on Roo's question was essentially that if someone was already itemizing, i.e. had enough income such that state tax expenses already made itemizing beneficial vs. taking the standard deduction without the MI, would it be possible the MI would generate a deduction at marginal rates? In that case, wouldn't subtracting the standard deduction in terms of determining tax advantage not make sense?



In our personal tax situation, that is almost exactly the case although a part of the MI deduction would get phased out...</blockquote>


Pratically speaking, if the taxpayer has a state income tax deduction large enough by itself to exceed the standard deduction, they are subject to AMT and/or phase out.

Hey, we could do this forever, eh?
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1232763127]



Pratically speaking, if the taxpayer has a state income tax deduction large enough by itself to exceed the standard deduction, they are subject to AMT and/or phase out.

Hey, we could do this forever, eh?</blockquote>


We could, I love geeky tax stuff. :)



I disagree though with regards to being subject to AMT. With the higher exemptions via the recent AMT patches, I think there would be a good portion of filers with enough CA state tax to itemize already without the MI deduction but not with significant enough income to incur additional tax liability under the AMT structure. I realize you indicated "and/or", and understand some phase out would be likely, was just making the point for clarification.



This is the case with regards to AMT and my own personal tax situation. Enough state tax to itemize without MI deduction but no AMT tax. This was definitely not the case before the patches though... Hopefully 2009 is the year for permanent AMT tax reform.
 
Just when I thought I understood, something else comes up. I'm not sure I follow when you say [quote author="awgee" date=1232745961]one must always subtract the applicable standard deduction from the total allowable itemized deductions</blockquote>.



On the federal level: My point is that someone could already pay enough state income tax to be already itemizing, therefore you would benefit (Now I'm scared to right entirely, but I'm thinking it) from the MI deduction. What is wrong with this statement?



On state: From what I said before, because it's a progressive tax rate, you would benefit from the MI deduction at your marginal rate. Is this correct?



Now I have to read more about AMT. Nothing more fun to do on a Friday night!
 
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