High School Rankings

[quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some shopping for a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>


That's exactly where the praise belongs, these parents don't have to have an advanced degree to promote the qualities of a good student in their children. But they do have to make huge sacrifices to raise successful kids.
 
People like this <img src="http://www.biography.com/hispanic-heritage/images/hh_bio_photo_escalante.jpg" alt="" />

deserve credit too... it is not an easy job.

Thank you teachers...



P.S. I think this must be the real bk.
 
[quote author="IrvineRealtor" date=1228986668]People like this <img src="http://www.biography.com/hispanic-heritage/images/hh_bio_photo_escalante.jpg" alt="" />

deserve credit too... it is not an easy job.

Thank you teachers...



P.S. I think this must be the real bk.</blockquote>


Mr. "Garfield High" who taught Calculus.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>


bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OCHSA relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OCHSA has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OCHSA relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OCHSA wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OCHSA, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to ASSUME that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1228995827][quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>


bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OCHSA relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OCHSA has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OCHSA relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OCHSA wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OCHSA, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to say that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.</blockquote>


Awgee,

I think that was the exact point I was making. At my school in SA, parents are involved, however they are not wealthy parents. You're right, by 5th grade in the average school in SA, parents don't show. The difference at my school is that they do, it's standing room only. From the beginning of this thread, I think I was making the same points you are, these schools have requirements, the majority of those requirements involve academics. It's the schools on this list (if there are any) that have actual commitment requirements, they take anyone willing to work, those are the ones that deserve the most praise. I don't think any of us are disagreeing, of course, the students of more educated and affluent parents who are involved have more success than those who are just involved, but the model school is the one that accepts all who are willing to work hard and still does well. The schools on this list are easy to create, like I said, accept those who have high scores and you get high scores, it's pretty simple. The key is, if the kids and the parents and the teachers don't follow through, it all falls apart (can't have a triangle with 1 or 2 sides).
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1228996486][quote author="awgee" date=1228995827][quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>


bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OCHSA relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OCHSA has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OCHSA relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OCHSA wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OCHSA, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to say that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.</blockquote>


Awgee,

I think that was the exact point I was making. At my school in SA, parents are involved, however they are not wealthy parents. You're right, by 5th grade in the average school in SA, parents don't show. The difference at my school is that they do, it's standing room only. From the beginning of this thread, I think I was making the same points you are, these schools have requirements, the majority of those requirements involve academics. It's the schools on this list (if there are any) that have actual commitment requirements, they take anyone willing to work, those are the ones that deserve the most praise. I don't think any of us are disagreeing, of course, the students of more educated and affluent parents who are involved have more success than those who are just involved, but the model school is the one that accepts all who are willing to work hard and still does well. The schools on this list are easy to create, like I said, accept those who have high scores and you get high scores, it's pretty simple. The key is, if the kids and the parents and the teachers don't follow through, it all falls apart (can't have a triangle with 1 or 2 sides).</blockquote>


Oh, there is disagreement. Not on the subjects you are speaking on, but rather on bk's pronouncement that parents who profess to want their children to go to good schools, actually just want to live in a pretentious neighborhood and use the good school issue as an excuse to live in the desired neighborhood. I know many of those parents and we are some of those parents and I disagree. To paint those parents with such a broad brush is ignorant, judgemental, and just plain stupid.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1228998703][quote author="tmare" date=1228996486][quote author="awgee" date=1228995827][quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>


bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OCHSA relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OCHSA has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OCHSA relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OCHSA wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OCHSA, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to say that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.</blockquote>


Awgee,

I think that was the exact point I was making. At my school in SA, parents are involved, however they are not wealthy parents. You're right, by 5th grade in the average school in SA, parents don't show. The difference at my school is that they do, it's standing room only. From the beginning of this thread, I think I was making the same points you are, these schools have requirements, the majority of those requirements involve academics. It's the schools on this list (if there are any) that have actual commitment requirements, they take anyone willing to work, those are the ones that deserve the most praise. I don't think any of us are disagreeing, of course, the students of more educated and affluent parents who are involved have more success than those who are just involved, but the model school is the one that accepts all who are willing to work hard and still does well. The schools on this list are easy to create, like I said, accept those who have high scores and you get high scores, it's pretty simple. The key is, if the kids and the parents and the teachers don't follow through, it all falls apart (can't have a triangle with 1 or 2 sides).</blockquote>


Oh, there is disagreement. Not on the subjects you are speaking on, but rather on bk's pronouncement that parents who profess to want their children to go to good schools, actually just want to live in a pretentious neighborhood and use the good school issue as an excuse to live in the desired neighborhood. I know many of those parents and we are some of those parents and I disagree. To paint those parents with such a broad brush is ignorant, judgemental, and just plain stupid.</blockquote>


I don't know if bk is a parent or not, becoming a parent really changes you in ways that are mostly unexplainable. I believe in neighborhood schools, yet I live in N. Santa Ana and I would never send my kid to our neighborhood school. I wish I could, but he's not going to be a guinea pig. We all want what is best for our kids. My sister in law moved out of the neighborhood she loved in LA to South Pasadena for the very same reason. Her choice wasn't because of the prestigious zip code, it was only because of the schools. So I agree with you.
 
One reason I moved to pretentious Irvine is so that my son could begin Kindergarten here and benefit from the schools. So I guess I fall in that category of which Bk describes... however I take no offense to the comment. I think what he's saying... is that it's the quality of parenting that matters most, not what neighborhood you live in. I definitely agree with that. Bk, awgee, tmare and myself - we will always have kids with a good chance of succeeding because we are all diligent parents that care and will make it a point to look out for them no matter what neighborhoods we live in. Again, I could be wrong, but I think that's what he was saying.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1229000993]One reason I moved to pretentious Irvine is so that my son could begin Kindergarten here and benefit from the schools. So I guess I fall in that category of which Bk describes... however I take no offense to the comment. I think what he's saying... is that it's the quality of parenting that matters most, not what neighborhood you live in. I definitely agree with that. Bk, awgee, tmare and myself - we will always have kids with a good chance of succeeding because we are all diligent parents that care and will make it a point to look out for them no matter what neighborhoods we live in. Again, I could be wrong, but I think that's what he was saying.</blockquote>


If that is what he was saying, I would be fine with it and agree, but this is what he was saying, <em>"So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the ?good schools? to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos."</em>



Maybe I am a bit obtuse, but it does not look the same to me.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1228998703][quote author="tmare" date=1228996486][quote author="awgee" date=1228995827][quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>




bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OC relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OC has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OC relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OC wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OC, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to say that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.</blockquote>


Awgee,

I think that was the exact point I was making. At my school in SA, parents are involved, however they are not wealthy parents. You're right, by 5th grade in the average school in SA, parents don't show. The difference at my school is that they do, it's standing room only. From the beginning of this thread, I think I was making the same points you are, these schools have requirements, the majority of those requirements involve academics. It's the schools on this list (if there are any) that have actual commitment requirements, they take anyone willing to work, those are the ones that deserve the most praise. I don't think any of us are disagreeing, of course, the students of more educated and affluent parents who are involved have more success than those who are just involved, but the model school is the one that accepts all who are willing to work hard and still does well. The schools on this list are easy to create, like I said, accept those who have high scores and you get high scores, it's pretty simple. The key is, if the kids and the parents and the teachers don't follow through, it all falls apart (can't have a triangle with 1 or 2 sides).</blockquote>


Oh, there is disagreement. Not on the subjects you are speaking on, but rather on bk's pronouncement that parents who profess to want their children to go to good schools, actually just want to live in a pretentious neighborhood and use the good school issue as an excuse to live in the desired neighborhood. I know many of those parents and we are some of those parents and I disagree. To paint those parents with such a broad brush is ignorant, judgemental, and just plain stupid.</blockquote>


Augee,



Please read carefully what I posted "So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the ?good schools? to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty".



I do not think my statement is broad-stroking the entire home shopper population since I chose my word "some" carefully . This is the reason why I lead to my conclusion. There is a segment of the demographic such as single professional, late 40+ dinks and empty nesters looking for homes but stated the priority is good school. These buyers do not have kids. You got to be kidding to believe that some buyers seeking the glamorous zip code are not ostentatious or pretentious by floundering their toys and that include homes situated on land that conveys vocabulary of Aristocratic features but the real reason they claim is good school thus to justify their $2mil+ spending. If a parent really want their kids to succeed in school then be active in their kids personal and school life. It does not require a top school for that. IR's Cultural Pathology is extremely correct.



Also look carefully in the top inner city schools selected that I have mentioned. Click on the schools and you will find that each of the school has a "poverty" and "disadvantaged" student factor. Students of these schools fall into both poverty and disadvantage factor just like Acpme's confirmation by his relative. It does not matter to me how the students got in whether it is by test score, talent or none. It is the idea of challenge and hope to the students and even the poor ones have the same opportunity to succeed just like the well provided for kids in Irvine. What difference does it makes whether it is a charter school or not? The fact that the school has a philosophy to motivate the poor students in learning.



The numerical value is an indication that rich families are not sending their smart rich genes to these schools. The school population is smart but poor kids collected from the vicinities. Rich families in LA do not send their kids to charter ghetto school. Please accept the fact that there are successful kids that arises out from the ashes of poverty and it is not the wealthy that helped these school gaining its reputation. It is the hard work from the poors who want a better life and that determination can overshadow all the disadvantages in their lives.





What about all the fundraisers as an excuse for getting together at some Shady Canyon Villa with extensive photo coverage by OC Riviera and Coast magazines with hired professional models wearing the latest fashion sponsored by SC Plaza boutiques. Then a month later the sponsors and attendees pictures are all over the press decked out in their $15,000 prada dress and Winston jewelries.



In doing successful marketing you have to set up politically correct reasons for the pretentious crowd to justify their "showing off" decision is not associated with selfishness. Learn from our politicians. Hypocrisy is well and alive behind the Orange curtain.
 
On the other hand, I know many people like you are describing who chose the wealthier neighborhoods in Santa Ana (many gay people who do not want kids) because they aren't worried about the schools.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1229047139][quote author="awgee" date=1228998703][quote author="tmare" date=1228996486][quote author="awgee" date=1228995827][quote author="bkshopr" date=1228985497][quote author="tmare" date=1228984838]I have been teaching for over 20 years and I will tell you with a fair degree of certainty that all of these schools have a few things in common whether they are private, magnet or any other name you want to call them: they have requirements that both the students and the parents must fulfill in order to remain a student at the school. The schools nearby will get their rejects, the kids who don't want to do homework and the parents who don't want to, can't or don't know how to help or even motivate their children. I have worked at magnet school for the last 15 years. We are able to do things that regular schools can't. I know that not enough is done at many regular public schools, but the bottom line is that kids and parents are human, they do things when there are consequences and rewards. When you take away consequences, namely the ultimate consequence of being asked to leave a school, you don't have much left. When the students who don't follow through leave, the level of achievement among the remaining students increases.</blockquote>


I like the idea of an sacrificial lamb. In the business world deliberately laying off a few employees will improve the work ethic for the rest of the staff.



My praise goes to those parents living in the hoods who can't read English nor calculate simple arithmetic but still be able to nurture their kids in achieving the top 100 standings. So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the "good schools" to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty.</blockquote>




bk - I am not sure if you understand that most of those 74 schools are magnet or charter schools which are open only to children who can test in or otherwise qualify to be admitted, very few of whom are from the neighborhood in which they are located. The charter schools are located in the less desirable neighborhoods because they can only get funding if they do the politically correct thing and locate the school in a less desirable neighborhood.



My oldest daughter went to Orange County High School of the Arts for five years, her first year being the year OC relocated to it's present Santa Ana location. Approximately one child in twenty attending OC has a Santa Ana address, and they recruit like crazy in Santa Ana.



OC relocated to Santa Ana from Los Alamitos because Los Al would not give OSCHA as much space and funding as OC wanted. The city of Santa Ana and a patron provided the buildings and funding.



The really top schools in this country, located in cities with poverty, are filled with affluent children who reside in other neighborhoods, the exception being some of the magnet schools, but only some.



My first choice for my two younger daughters is OC, Troy, or Oxford, but if they are not accepted in one of those high schools, our second choice is one of the "good schools" in one of the pretentious neighborhoods.



It is quite judgemental and ignorant to say that people use "good schools" as an excuse to live in pretentious neighborhoods. How could you possibly know their motivations? In addition to demographic studies, you now read minds?



Tmare - If you have worked in an inner city school, would you please tell bk of the difference between the number of parents who show up for parent/teacher night at an inner city school and a "good school" in a pretentious neighborhood.</blockquote>


Awgee,

I think that was the exact point I was making. At my school in SA, parents are involved, however they are not wealthy parents. You're right, by 5th grade in the average school in SA, parents don't show. The difference at my school is that they do, it's standing room only. From the beginning of this thread, I think I was making the same points you are, these schools have requirements, the majority of those requirements involve academics. It's the schools on this list (if there are any) that have actual commitment requirements, they take anyone willing to work, those are the ones that deserve the most praise. I don't think any of us are disagreeing, of course, the students of more educated and affluent parents who are involved have more success than those who are just involved, but the model school is the one that accepts all who are willing to work hard and still does well. The schools on this list are easy to create, like I said, accept those who have high scores and you get high scores, it's pretty simple. The key is, if the kids and the parents and the teachers don't follow through, it all falls apart (can't have a triangle with 1 or 2 sides).</blockquote>


Oh, there is disagreement. Not on the subjects you are speaking on, but rather on bk's pronouncement that parents who profess to want their children to go to good schools, actually just want to live in a pretentious neighborhood and use the good school issue as an excuse to live in the desired neighborhood. I know many of those parents and we are some of those parents and I disagree. To paint those parents with such a broad brush is ignorant, judgemental, and just plain stupid.</blockquote>


Augee,



Please read carefully what I posted "So for some home shoppers seeking a pretentious place to live please stop using the ?good schools? to justify their action because the really top schools in this country are mostly in the ghettos. 74 out of the 100 schools listed are in cities with poverty".



I do not think my statement is broad-stroking the entire home shopper population since I chose my word "some" carefully . This is the reason why I lead to my conclusion. There is a segment of the demographic such as single professional, late 40+ dinks and empty nesters looking for homes but stated the priority is good school. These buyers do not have kids. You got to be kidding to believe that some buyers seeking the glamorous zip code are not ostentatious or pretentious by floundering their toys and that include homes situated on land that conveys vocabulary of Aristocratic features but the real reason they claim is good school thus to justify their $2mil+ spending. If a parent really want their kids to succeed in school then be active in their kids personal and school life. It does not require a top school for that. IR's Cultural Pathology is extremely correct.



Also look carefully in the top inner city schools selected that I have mentioned. Click on the schools and you will find that each of the school has a "poverty" and "disadvantaged" student factor. Students of these schools fall into both poverty and disadvantage factor just like Acpme's confirmation by his relative. It does not matter to me how the students got in whether it is by test score, talent or none. It is the idea of challenge and hope to the students and even the poor ones have the same opportunity to succeed just like the well provided for kids in Irvine. What difference does it makes whether it is a charter school or not? The fact that the school has a philosophy to motivate the poor students in learning.



The numerical value is an indication that rich families are not sending their smart rich genes to these schools. The school population is smart but poor kids collected from the vicinities. Rich families in LA do not send their kids to charter ghetto school. Please accept the fact that there are successful kids that arises out from the ashes of poverty and it is not the wealthy that helped these school gaining its reputation. It is the hard work from the poors who want a better life and that determination can overshadow all the disadvantages in their lives.





What about all the fundraisers as an excuse for getting together at some Shady Canyon Villa with extensive photo coverage by OC Riviera and Coast magazines with hired professional models wearing the latest fashion sponsored by SC Plaza boutiques. Then a month later the sponsors and attendees pictures are all over the press decked out in their $15,000 prada dress and Winston jewelries.



In doing successful marketing you have to set up politically correct reasons for the pretentious crowd to justify their "showing off" decision is not associated with selfishness. Learn from our politicians. Hypocrisy is well and alive behind the Orange curtain.</blockquote>


I think you are reading too many statistics instead of seeing who is actually attending the charter schools. You are absolutely wrong. The wealthy do indeed send their children to the charter schools in the poorer inner city. The magnet and charter schools lie about the income level of the students that attend those schools. They have to in order to get funded. I have intimate knowledge of this. And it makes a huge difference that it is a charter school. No one said that a poor kid could not do well. The overwhelming majority of good schools that a child can go to without qualifying to attend are in the more affluent neighborhoods. If you can not accept that, well ...
 
i'd like to clarify that there magnet and charter school is not the same thing. and in referring to charter schools, well charters can be very broad and differ. the LA-area charter schools which landed in the top 100 list are all run by an organization called green dot public schools. all of the schools are given the name animo -- animo inglewood, animo venice, animo oscar de la hoya la, etc.



their charters were granted in disadvantaged neighborhoods because the existing neighborhood schools were underperforming. the charters do not permit the schools to have admission requirements, but they can enforce rules such as, parents must be involved in their child's education -- mandatory parent mtgs, etc.

they receive the same public funding but because these schools are started from scratch, they often lack the same resources and infrastructure as existing schools.



at one animo school my brother worked at the school grounds were basically an unused section of an elementary school's playground. the school consisted of a cluster of trailers for classrooms and office space, and covered patio area with benches for lunchtime and assemblies. i guarantee no parents were shuttling their kids from westwood to south la to attend this school, nor would they be allowed to. as i mentioned before, most of the students get 2 meals a day paid for because of low income.



to state that these schools lie to get funding is a disservice to the amazing job that has been done. apparently they have found a system that works for these kids, when it was commonly accepted that the reason for underperformance was family income, language, funding, etc. the whole founding idea behind greendot was to show that schools in these neighborhoods, using the same kids and same funding, but different administration, can produce improvements. they specifically chose to open schools in the areas of greatest need in LA. nevertheless, 80% of animo school students graduated compared to 47% in LAUSD.



these charter schools in LA are showing all those "disadvantages" the students face can be overcome -- more often than not, they were merely excuses for how inept LAUSD and other neighboring districts such as compton and inglewood unified had become. we've become so accustomed to having low expectations for these students/schools/areas that when they outperform, we assume something must be wrong. it's no different than what happened to the calculus students in stand and deliver. they weren't suppose to succeed, so when they did, it was assumed they cheated.



if anyone doubts what kind of kids actually attend these schools, i know the schools are very open to inviting people to come observe or even speak to the students about their careers. what greendot lacks in influence within the traditional bureaucratic and political circles of the school districts (which sometimes resents their presence and success) they make up for in connections within the private sector. every successful organization leverages whatever resources they do have avail to them. i would be happy to put anyone in touch with either greendot administrators or a few principals directly. they are proud of their work and always happy to share about what they're doing.
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1229055360]i'd like to clarify that there magnet and charter school is not the same thing. and in referring to charter schools, well charters can be very broad and differ. the LA-area charter schools which landed in the top 100 list are all run by an organization called green dot public schools. all of the schools are given the name animo -- animo inglewood, animo venice, animo oscar de la hoya la, etc.



their charters were granted in disadvantaged neighborhoods because the existing neighborhood schools were underperforming. the charters do not permit the schools to have admission requirements, but they can enforce rules such as, parents must be involved in their child's education -- mandatory parent mtgs, etc.

they receive the same public funding but because these schools are started from scratch, they often lack the same resources and infrastructure as existing schools.



at one animo school my brother worked at the school grounds were basically an unused section of an elementary school's playground. the school consisted of a cluster of trailers for classrooms and office space, and covered patio area with benches for lunchtime and assemblies. i guarantee no parents were shuttling their kids from westwood to south la to attend this schools. as i mentioned before, most of the students at the schools get 2 meals a day paid for because of low income.



to state that these schools lie to get funding is a disservice to the amazing job that has been done. apparently they have found a system that works for these kids, when previously it was commonly accepted that the reason for the underperformance was family income, language, funding, etc. what the charter schools are showing is all those things, while disadvantages for the kids, can be overcome -- more often than not, they were merely excuses for how badly lausd and others such as compton and inglewood unified have become. we've become so accustomed to having low expectations for these kids/schools/areas that when they outperform, we assume something must be wrong. it's no different than what happened to the calculus students on stand and deliver. they weren't suppose to succeed, so when they did, it was assumed they cheated.



if anyone wants first-hand information, i would be happy to put anyone in touch with either greendot administrators or a few principals directly. they are proud of their work and always happy to share about what they're doing.</blockquote>


Acpme, I thank you very much for this clarification. LA Animo charter schools are not the same as OC High School for the Arts or Oxford Academy. The Orange County magnet schools have rigorous testing and admission process that attracted students from San Clemente to Valencia. The Animo schools are taking in any students that live in the district boundaries. Like Acpme said the smart students are not shuttled to the schools from outside of the area. Rather than doubting the schools' success claiming that they have all the smart kids to begin with rather we should honor those schools with limited resources taken in ordinary kids and made them smarter than the "Fifth Graders"



These schools are not the same as OCHSA that Awgee sent his kids to in which he is very familiar with its structure and he described it in high accuracy. The system of the magnet school Awgee is referring to is not the same as the Animo schools Acpme and I are trying to clarify. It is a system that can take any kid without prejudice and shape him or her into future scholars as long the kid is challenged and motivated.



The poverty factor of students attending the Animo schools is extremely poor is an indicator that no outside students with wealth are in the mix. The free lunch program is also at 100% with financially qualified income families is another indicator that kids living in higher income neighborhoods are not shuttled in. Another possibility could be the wealthier kids qualified for free lunch because their parent lied on income qualification.



The demographic consists of all blacks and Hispanics with no Asians and Anglos is another strong indicator that the kids are indeed from the area. However, Black and Hispanic kids living in Irvine could have been smuggled into the student?s population in these schools with extreme desolate environment. However, the only time I heard of Anglo driving into South Central LA was attending a Lakers Game in the old Forum before the team moved to the Staple Center. Seriously how many of you living in Irvine have even driven on city roads in South Central? Let alone would send kids to Animo schools located there. Oxford and OCHSA are in good locations of Cypress and North Santa Ana unlike the Animo schools in the remnant part of another school in the slums.



The disadvantage factor is derived from environment that is inadequate for the child's educational growth outside of the schools such as the lack of economic resources for school projects and books at home environment, cultural deprivation, parents absence, single parent, immigrant parent can't speak English, parent(s) in prison, presence of gang and drugs in neighborhood, latch key children, high crime neighborhood and the lack of educational facilities such as libraries and museums.



Although statistics is non personal and it lacks the human emotional side but it is the person with a keen observation who can translate the numbers into a realistic and convincing story.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1229058465] However, the only time I heard of Anglo driving into South Central LA was attending a Lakers Game in the old Forum before the team moved to the Staple Center. Seriously how many of you living in Irvine have even driven on city roads in South Central? </blockquote>


I've been to Hollywood Park for $1 Day, and sometimes take Figeuroa if the 110 Fwy is backed up. Do those count?
 
sometimes i ride my bike through... *shudder* woodbridge! i look at all those scary woodbridge high kids and wonder what nefarious plans they have in their minds. did you know some of them don't even attend PSAT prep???
 
Does 2AM on a Saturday heading south from the 10 on Alameda a month after the Rodney King verdict with a Korean friend in the Jeep and the top down count?
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1229058465][quote author="acpme" date=1229055360]i'd like to clarify that there magnet and charter school is not the same thing. and in referring to charter schools, well charters can be very broad and differ. the LA-area charter schools which landed in the top 100 list are all run by an organization called green dot public schools. all of the schools are given the name animo -- animo inglewood, animo venice, animo oscar de la hoya la, etc.



their charters were granted in disadvantaged neighborhoods because the existing neighborhood schools were underperforming. the charters do not permit the schools to have admission requirements, but they can enforce rules such as, parents must be involved in their child's education -- mandatory parent mtgs, etc.

they receive the same public funding but because these schools are started from scratch, they often lack the same resources and infrastructure as existing schools.



at one animo school my brother worked at the school grounds were basically an unused section of an elementary school's playground. the school consisted of a cluster of trailers for classrooms and office space, and covered patio area with benches for lunchtime and assemblies. i guarantee no parents were shuttling their kids from westwood to south la to attend this schools. as i mentioned before, most of the students at the schools get 2 meals a day paid for because of low income.



to state that these schools lie to get funding is a disservice to the amazing job that has been done. apparently they have found a system that works for these kids, when previously it was commonly accepted that the reason for the underperformance was family income, language, funding, etc. what the charter schools are showing is all those things, while disadvantages for the kids, can be overcome -- more often than not, they were merely excuses for how badly lausd and others such as compton and inglewood unified have become. we've become so accustomed to having low expectations for these kids/schools/areas that when they outperform, we assume something must be wrong. it's no different than what happened to the calculus students on stand and deliver. they weren't suppose to succeed, so when they did, it was assumed they cheated.



if anyone wants first-hand information, i would be happy to put anyone in touch with either greendot administrators or a few principals directly. they are proud of their work and always happy to share about what they're doing.</blockquote>


Acpme, I thank you very much for this clarification. LA Animo charter schools are not the same as OC High School for the Arts or Oxford Academy. The Orange County magnet schools have rigorous testing and admission process that attracted students from San Clemente to Valencia. The Animo schools are taking in any students that live in the district boundaries. Like Acpme said the smart students are not shuttled to the schools from outside of the area. Rather than doubting the schools' success claiming that they have all the smart kids to begin with rather we should honor those schools with limited resources taken in ordinary kids and made them smarter than the "Fifth Graders"



These schools are not the same as OCHSA that Awgee sent his kids to in which he is very familiar with its structure and he described it in high accuracy. The system of the magnet school Awgee is referring to is not the same as the Animo schools Acpme and I are trying to clarify. It is a system that can take any kid without prejudice and shape him or her into future scholars as long the kid is challenged and motivated.



The poverty factor of students attending the Animo schools is extremely poor is an indicator that no outside students with wealth are in the mix. The free lunch program is also at 100% with financially qualified income families is another indicator that kids living in higher income neighborhoods are not shuttled in. Another possibility could be the wealthier kids qualified for free lunch because their parent lied on income qualification.



The demographic consists of all blacks and Hispanics with no Asians and Anglos is another strong indicator that the kids are indeed from the area. However, Black and Hispanic kids living in Irvine could have been smuggled into the student?s population in these schools with extreme desolate environment. However, the only time I heard of Anglo driving into South Central LA was attending a Lakers Game in the old Forum before the team moved to the Staple Center. Seriously how many of you living in Irvine have even driven on city roads in South Central? Let alone would send kids to Animo schools located there. Oxford and OCHSA are in good locations of Cypress and North Santa Ana unlike the Animo schools in the remnant part of another school in the slums.



The disadvantage factor is derived from environment that is inadequate for the child's educational growth outside of the schools such as the lack of economic resources for school projects and books at home environment, cultural deprivation, parents absence, single parent, immigrant parent can't speak English, parent(s) in prison, presence of gang and drugs in neighborhood, latch key children, high crime neighborhood and the lack of educational facilities such as libraries and museums.



Although statistics is non personal and it lacks the human emotional side but it is the person with a keen observation who can translate the numbers into a realistic and convincing story.</blockquote>


There's seems to be a lot of confusion between a magnet school and a charter school. In my district, we have what is called "fundamental" schools, which essentially are like magnet schools, they are entirely controlled by the school district, however they have more commitment requirements than a regular neighborhood school. These schools accept any student, but admission is by lottery and anywhere from 50%-80% of the students do not get picked from the lottery and end up on a waiting list. We also have a few charter schools, the only one that accepts students through application and scores is OCHSA. These schools receive their budget from the district but how they distribute it and what they do is up to them. The other charter schools run a lottery with essentially the same chances of getting in. Why am I telling you all of this? Because BK is right that there really aren't any kids from wealthy areas busting down the doors to get into our fundamental or charter schools (except OCHSA) BUT the type of parent that takes the time to register for the lottery at these schools is just a notch above the typical parent. Once they are lucky enough to have their names drawn, they don't want to mess it up. Mess it up means have their kid kicked out for not obeying school rules. At these schools kids actually get kicked out for not doing homework and being tardy. In the other schools they really only get kicked out for bringing a weapon or drugs to school. Yes, the schools do a good job but it's a self-selecting type of situation. Selection is not based on academics but the pure existence of desire ensures that a higher caliber of student attends.
 
bk, acpme, Are you seriously using the LA magnet school system as an example of the 76 out of 100 top high schools in the nation that bk is refering to? bk is saying the 76 out of 100 schools is an example of inner city schools doing great in spite of their circumstances. Most of those schools are admission restricted. Do you understand that? A few exceptiions do not change facts. It is great that people can do wonderful in spite of their circumstances, but the 76 schools that bk is refering to is not an example of such achievement. They are an example of selective admission, and the few exceptions do not change facts. You can deny it all you want, and for whatever prejudices you harbor, but the fact is the affluent do send their children to inner city selective admission charter schools, but only if their children are accepted. And they commute long distances to do so. And they make large donations to the schools; the schools that are not in their neighborhood, but that their children do attend. Who the heck do you think is donating money for the special programs that the charter schools are centered around? Do you think it is the neighborhood parents? The state?

<strong>WRONG!</strong> It is the parents of the children who commute to the inner city. Why do you think the Amino system does not have the special science, technology, or arts programs of the overwhelming majority of the schools have that bk is refering to?



bk - Do you really not know why people without children and no intention of having children want to live in a "good school" neighborhood? Why don't you ask instead of judging them? Try it. Ask one of the couples, over 40, no kids, why in the world they want to buy a home in a good school neighborhood when they do not have kids or intend to have kids.
 
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