Do I need to pull permits to upgrade kitchen/bath/floor/paint?

F

funkychalupa

New member
Hi All,

I recently purchased Maricopa Plan 1 in the Stonegate community. Single family house. I'm at stage 3 of my design with the Irvine Pacific Design center. As many others have already suggested, many upgrades should be done by a contractor AFTER escrow due to cost effectiveness. That is what I plan on doing. So I'm now collecting bids from many contractors for an upgrade remodeling job with 3 bathrooms, kitchen, flooring, crown molding, baseboards and repaint. Estimate close of escrow is 4/11/2012 and I'm expecting a newborn on 5/21/2012. (YAY!) So I have about 5 weeks to complete this project. I'm hoping to settle in before 5/21/2012. However, a contractor asked me today, "Are you going to pull the permit?" And that completely stunned me. Pulling permits for these interior upgrade jobs will totally stretch the project from 4-5 weeks into 2-3 months easy from past experience. He particularly mentioned, "If there are other constructions going on around your house, city contractor will definitely pop in and ask 'hey, you guys got a permit?'"

I don't know what to do. USCTrojan, I'm also seeking your help plus anyone else who's planning the same job or has done this. Is pulling permits necessary for interior job like this? What are the pros and cons? What risks am I running here?

Please help~~~

Tim
 
funkychalupa said:
Hi All,

I recently purchased Maricopa Plan 1 in the Stonegate community. Single family house. I'm at stage 3 of my design with the Irvine Pacific Design center. As many others have already suggested, many upgrades should be done by a contractor AFTER escrow due to cost effectiveness. That is what I plan on doing. So I'm now collecting bids from many contractors for an upgrade remodeling job with 3 bathrooms, kitchen, flooring, crown molding, baseboards and repaint. Estimate close of escrow is 4/11/2012 and I'm expecting a newborn on 5/21/2012. (YAY!) So I have about 5 weeks to complete this project. I'm hoping to settle in before 5/21/2012. However, a contractor asked me today, "Are you going to pull the permit?" And that completely stunned me. Pulling permits for these interior upgrade jobs will totally stretch the project from 4-5 weeks into 2-3 months easy from past experience. He particularly mentioned, "If there are other constructions going on around your house, city contractor will definitely pop in and ask 'hey, you guys got a permit?'"

I don't know what to do. USCTrojan, I'm also seeking your help plus anyone else who's planning the same job or has done this. Is pulling permits necessary for interior job like this? What are the pros and cons? What risks am I running here?

Please help~~~

Tim
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Hey Tim, it really depends on what kinda of upgrade and/or modifications that you do.  No permits are needed if you are doing things like crown moldings, painting, baseboards, flooring, counter tops, carpet, etc.  However, if you do anything structural like put up a wall or take a wall down or move around any electrical outlets or plumbing I can see you needing a permit.  What permit/s did the contractor tell you that you had to pull?  If you don't pull permits for moving electrical outlets and there is a fire because of it, the insurance company could void the claim.  List what kind of upgrades you on doing and I can give you a better idea whether you might need a permit or not.
 
I'm definitely not doing anything electrical such as new outlets. Those options are done through the builder during the design phases. So for bathrooms, I'm looking to upgrade countertops, sinks, faucet, shower tiles, shower system, shower glass enclosure, plumbing, backsplash. For kitchen, I'm doing countertops, sink, faucet. Throughout the house, I'm upgrading to engineered wood flooring, crown molding, baseboards, and wall paint.

Even for the bathroom lighting fixtures, I will only go as far as changing the lights to a different style on the existing outlet. I'm not looking to move or add outlets.

The contractor didn't ask for any specific type of permit. I'm guessing he asked because he's not sure what type of upgrades I'm going to do. But what I said above is the scope of work. So, should I be concerned?
 
Permit is not required for finishes in home. Some contractors are clueless because they do works in both commercial and residential sectors so they get confused. In commercial when there is an improvement over $500 a permit is required because it could affect the health and safety of the public when public has access to a commercial space.

In your home only invited guests are allowed and you bear the responsibility of your guests' safety. You are held liable and your guests can sue you if they slipped on your $501 travertine flooring.
 
funkychalupa said:
I'm definitely not doing anything electrical such as new outlets. Those options are done through the builder during the design phases. So for bathrooms, I'm looking to upgrade countertops, sinks, faucet, shower tiles, shower system, shower glass enclosure, plumbing, backsplash. For kitchen, I'm doing countertops, sink, faucet. Throughout the house, I'm upgrading to engineered wood flooring, crown molding, baseboards, and wall paint.

Even for the bathroom lighting fixtures, I will only go as far as changing the lights to a different style on the existing outlet. I'm not looking to move or add outlets.

The contractor didn't ask for any specific type of permit. I'm guessing he asked because he's not sure what type of upgrades I'm going to do. But what I said above is the scope of work. So, should I be concerned?
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Based upon the things that you are planning on doing (mostly cosmetic upgrades), you will not need to get any permits.  As Irvinehomeshopper said, the contractor must be confused.  You might want to get several contractors/tradesmen to complete the work (painter, tile/flooring, plumber, etc).  A general contractor will only be an added middleman which you don't need.
 
The city's website has all the info a resident needs to confirm when permits are not needed, when they are, how to obtain, etc. It's all in black and white here:
When Permits Are Not Required in Irvine. Questions regarding whether a permit is required may also be directed to (949) 724-6471.

There are contractors who take shortcuts and don't get them even when they are needed. There are some that pull them all for the homeowner. I'm under a remodel now and they have pulled them for me without me having to ask. I've done it both ways and prefer it this way. You can save some money doing it yourself (assuming you needed one) but not a ton. It's an added convenience when they do it and especially when they agree to sit around all day waiting for the inspector on your behalf since usually the city doesn't let you know the time window, just the day. Fwiw, I'd allow more time than what you have planned in that scenario. Give yourself some wiggle room. It's not uncommon for unexpected construction delays to occur, things come up (ex: they remove the kitchen counter and the cabinet breaks or your materials order is incorrect / delayed, etc. Been there.) or for babies to arrive early.  :-\
 
" I'm looking to upgrade shower system, plumbing,..."

What sort of shower system do you have in mind? I could see why you're asking about permits as only minor plumbing is exempt. Btw, if you are intent on doing this unpermitted, I would not call the city office to ask. You don't want their eyes on you if you decide to proceed without it.
 
kubert13 said:
Does TIC allow barefloor escrows?
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Most builders will not allow you to close with bare floors nowadays.  That being said, back in 2004 William Lyon allowed me to close with bare floors on my condo but times have changed since then.
 
SoCal78 said:
" I'm looking to upgrade shower system, plumbing,..."

What sort of shower system do you have in mind? I could see why you're asking about permits as only minor plumbing is exempt. Btw, if you are intent on doing this unpermitted, I would not call the city office to ask. You don't want their eyes on you if you decide to proceed without it.
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Yeah I paused too when I read that part, and about the tiling.  We're talking about a material- and labor-intense installation that, if not done right, can cause long term and difficult-to-detect damage to the structure.  Water damage, dry rot, mold, even spalling of foundations.  Good to have a 2nd set of eyes to make sure moisture-resistant drywall and barriers are used in the right places, that shower curbs have the right height, floors are appropriately sloped, water proofing lips are installed correctly, backsplashes are sealed, etc.  I am not a contractor, but I have more experience than I've ever wanted with some of these issues.  The way this stuff goes together, it is often impossible to redo something not done right without having to redo a lot of other stuff.  Try removing a tub without destroying the tiling around it and the wall that the tiling is attached to.
 
USCTrojanCPA said:
funkychalupa said:
I'm definitely not doing anything electrical such as new outlets. Those options are done through the builder during the design phases. So for bathrooms, I'm looking to upgrade countertops, sinks, faucet, shower tiles, shower system, shower glass enclosure, plumbing, backsplash. For kitchen, I'm doing countertops, sink, faucet. Throughout the house, I'm upgrading to engineered wood flooring, crown molding, baseboards, and wall paint.

Even for the bathroom lighting fixtures, I will only go as far as changing the lights to a different style on the existing outlet. I'm not looking to move or add outlets.

The contractor didn't ask for any specific type of permit. I'm guessing he asked because he's not sure what type of upgrades I'm going to do. But what I said above is the scope of work. So, should I be concerned?
Click to expand...
Based upon the things that you are planning on doing (mostly cosmetic upgrades), you will not need to get any permits.  As Irvinehomeshopper said, the contractor must be confused.  You might want to get several contractors/tradesmen to complete the work (painter, tile/flooring, plumber, etc).  A general contractor will only be an added middleman which you don't need.
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First of all, thanks for the knowledge on permits. It's very helpful. Definitely answered my question and I do agree that the contractor might just be blowing smoke.

Now, due to time constraint during execution phase of this project 4/11 - 5/14, I just don't feel that I would have the bandwidth and knowledge to coordinate multiple vendors especially considering the scope of work involved (flooring/baseboard first, then paint, then countertops/shower, then carpet).

All of this plan, by the way, is predicating on the fact that Irvine Pacific design center is going to charge an arm and a leg for the same work. I'm estimating 3x the price of a contractor on most of the upgrades. I'm yet to get concrete numbers by comparing quotes though. (more to come on that)

For example, assuming to replicate Maricopa Plan 1's flooring: Provenza Old World Tumbleweed Engineered floor 7" for downstairs which is about 1200 sqft, Irvine Pacific estimate $19000 to get the upgrade. That's $15.8/sqft just to upgrade the material. The material is about $4.99/sqft. I already have bids from contractor for about $3/sqft on labor. With things like glue/padding included, the floor job alone won't go over $10/sqft. That's about $7000 worth in saving!!!

Am I insane here by doing this math? How do other homeowners justify this type of builder vs contractor remodel project decisions? I'm thirsty for your experience.

Thanks in advance
 
You have already overpaid for your home why pay them much more for the same floor you can get for less. They call outside vendors just like you. A phone call is not worth $7K. Have you seen other members' posts regarding the Design Center's lousy work,  bad service,  not being accountable and high marked ups?
 
Asking IPac to do your upgrades is like paying Paris Hilton to do your math homework. Pricey with questionable results.
 
some people probably dont have much left over after putting 20% down or whatever and would rather finance the cost even if it is more expensive. also, there is something to be said for closing and then moving in. a contractor you use can screw up the job just like TIC contractors can.  not defending TIC, but can understand why some folks would overpay for the builders upgrades.
 
IndieDev said:
Asking IPac to do your upgrades is like paying Paris Hilton to do your math homework. Pricey with questionable results.
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Paris at least can provide a happpppy ending at a price while ip can't deliver that at any price.
 
Many things can be done after closing, but I would seriously consider doing your shower/plumbing through iPac.  The cost of demolition for tile is much higher than ripping out carpet, and the possibility that something goes wrong is not trivial.  Plus, you are going to void your warranty for everything related to it.  Do you really want to be on the hook if you find out that water is leaking out from your shower and has rotted all of the wood any drywall beneath it?
 
uciguy said:
Many things can be done after closing, but I would seriously consider doing your shower/plumbing through iPac.  The cost of demolition for tile is much higher than ripping out carpet, and the possibility that something goes wrong is not trivial.  Plus, you are going to void your warranty for everything related to it.  Do you really want to be on the hook if you find out that water is leaking out from your shower and has rotted all of the wood any drywall beneath it?
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I have a design meeting with IPac coming up this weekend and will get a realistic estimate on how much it would cost to get the same type of bathroom/kitchen upgrade with the builder. At the same time I've already collected a few bids from 3rd party contractors and design shops. I will be happy to post my numbers once I find out.

I have ready a lot about others' poor experience with the builder. Their logic is definitely valid. My game plan right now is to let the builder deal with all the electrical/wiring/lighting/plumbing/insulation related items only in order to keep the cost/benefit ration at the optimal. I also understand the warranty issue. About that, I can only say that even if I look for an outside contractor/designer, I better find a credible provider through references and careful planning/execution. There's no guarantee in this type of business. It's all about risk mitigation, damage control and cost/benefit ratio.

FYI, I would definitely love to have Paris come do some of my homework.
 
funkychalupa said:
uciguy said:
Many things can be done after closing, but I would seriously consider doing your shower/plumbing through iPac.  The cost of demolition for tile is much higher than ripping out carpet, and the possibility that something goes wrong is not trivial.  Plus, you are going to void your warranty for everything related to it.  Do you really want to be on the hook if you find out that water is leaking out from your shower and has rotted all of the wood any drywall beneath it?
Click to expand...

I have a design meeting with IPac coming up this weekend and will get a realistic estimate on how much it would cost to get the same type of bathroom/kitchen upgrade with the builder. At the same time I've already collected a few bids from 3rd party contractors and design shops. I will be happy to post my numbers once I find out.

I have ready a lot about others' poor experience with the builder. Their logic is definitely valid. My game plan right now is to let the builder deal with all the electrical/wiring/lighting/plumbing/insulation related items only in order to keep the cost/benefit ration at the optimal. I also understand the warranty issue. About that, I can only say that even if I look for an outside contractor/designer, I better find a credible provider through references and careful planning/execution. There's no guarantee in this type of business. It's all about risk mitigation, damage control and cost/benefit ratio.

FYI, I would definitely love to have Paris come do some of my homework.
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I think you have a pretty good game plan.  I've told my new home buyers to go through the builder when it comes to structural, lighting, cabinet upgrades, and/or significant upgrades like major electrical and plumbing items.  It's the cosmetic stuff like flooring, paint, fixtures, baseboards, built-ins, crown moldings, window coverings, etc that you can get much better pricing from 3rd party reputable contractors.  Keep us posted on your progress.
 
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