Discovered a slab leak, would you still buy?

[quote author="bkshopr" date=1253832308]After WWII slab construction were cheaper to build vs raised foundation by minimizing labor cost of framing the ground floor. Older homes have the advantage of access to the crawl space to check for plumbing leaks or routing a brand new plumbing line.



For post WWII construction Copper plumbing were laid on the dirt and elbow vertically before pouring the concrete slab over pipes. Builders often did not wrap sleeves over the pipes. Without the sleeves the pipes rub against the concrete when the pipes contract and expand in extreme temperature change.



The most obvious is when taking a hot shower in the morning after a very cold night. When hot water passing through a cold pipe the coefficient of linear expansion due to temperature difference for a copper pipe is high resulting in at least 1/2 of expansion displacement. As the pipe expands below the concrete it bows below the slab. However the part where the pipe rises vertically through the slab the restriction produces scraping between the copper surface and concrete. As years passed the copper lining became thinner and thinner from the constant sanding friction. Eventually the endless cycles of scraping tore a hole on pipe.



To fix it one must find the location of the leak and that is usually around the outer radius of the elbow or other mysterious locations below the slab. Sometime it will take several guesses. To repair the leak it will require jack hammering the slab. Post tension slab would be very difficult because of the steel tendons. At 35,000# psi tension a severed tendon shoots out like a spear at 10x the speed of a bullet.



Pipes will not last forever. For all slab foundations the problem is inevitable. The hope is this does not happen in your lifetime.</blockquote>
The biggest red flag about there being a water leak as you describe is if the water pressure is lower than normal.
 
The way to validate a leak is to shut off all faucets, sprinklers and ice maker. Check the water meter differential after 8 hours. No difference means no leak.
 
[quote author="USCTrojanCPA" date=1253831212][quote author="davenlei" date=1253831072][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1253825336]Who found the leak? You or the inspector?</blockquote>


I saw water coming from where water should not. I asked for the leak to be looked at prior to inspection. A plumber found the problem.</blockquote>
Did the seller/s disclose the leak on the sellers disclosure forms? It was great that you were diligent like that and another reason why I would recommend that ALL BUYERS have an active role in inspecting the property when the inspector is there (especially with older homes).</blockquote>


I have not received any disclosures. It is still early in the process.



The escrow paperwork said th escrow company asssess a penalty for cancelling to the buyer regardless of who cancels and for any reason.
 
[quote author="USCTrojanCPA" date=1253832548]The biggest red flag about there being a water leak as you describe is if the water pressure is lower than normal.</blockquote>


Or - if your water bill is higher than normal.



I've lived in a structure where this happened. That leak was fixed... and then another sprung up... and another. If you were determined to have this house, I would like to see the entire home re-plumbed if possible but I would still be concerned about the effects the water has already created... maybe a sinking is home in your future.



Would I continue with escrow?



Yes.



And by "yes"... I mean "hell no".
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1253836390][quote author="USCTrojanCPA" date=1253832548]The biggest red flag about there being a water leak as you describe is if the water pressure is lower than normal.</blockquote>


Or - if your water bill is higher than normal.



I've lived in a structure where this happened. That leak was fixed... and then another sprung up... and another. If you were determined to have this house, I would like to see the entire home re-plumbed if possible but I would still be concerned about the effects the water has already created... maybe a sinking is home in your future.



Would I continue with escrow?



Yes.



And by "yes"... I mean "hell no".</blockquote>


Add a basement?
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1253832308]After WWII slab construction were cheaper to build vs raised foundation by minimizing labor cost of framing the ground floor. Older homes have the advantage of access to the crawl space to check for plumbing leaks or routing a brand new plumbing line.



For post WWII construction Copper plumbing were laid on the dirt and elbow vertically before pouring the concrete slab over pipes. Builders often did not wrap sleeves over the pipes. Without the sleeves the pipes rub against the concrete when the pipes contract and expand in extreme temperature change.



The most obvious is when taking a hot shower in the morning after a very cold night. When hot water passing through a cold pipe the coefficient of linear expansion due to temperature difference for a copper pipe is high resulting in at least 1/2 of expansion displacement. As the pipe expands below the concrete it bows below the slab. However the part where the pipe rises vertically through the slab the restriction produces scraping between the copper surface and concrete. As years passed the copper lining became thinner and thinner from the constant sanding friction. Eventually the endless cycles of scraping tore a hole on pipe.



To fix it one must find the location of the leak and that is usually around the outer radius of the elbow or other mysterious locations below the slab. Sometime it will take several guesses. To repair the leak it will require jack hammering the slab. Post tension slab would be very difficult because of the steel tendons. At 35,000# psi tension a severed tendon shoots out like a spear at 10x the speed of a bullet.



Pipes will not last forever. For all slab foundations the problem is inevitable. The hope is this does not happen in your lifetime.</blockquote>


It's funny that this topic came up today, since I just looked at an older home in Harbor View (Newport Beach) and the realtor was talking about the benefits of a raised foundation vs. a slab. It sounds like you might agree with this - given a choice would you prefer a raised foundation? This particular home had some raised and sunken rooms that we would want to change to one level and it seems that this may be easier with a raised foundation...thanks!
 
[quote author="davenlei" date=1253835496][quote author="USCTrojanCPA" date=1253831212][quote author="davenlei" date=1253831072][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1253825336]Who found the leak? You or the inspector?</blockquote>


I saw water coming from where water should not. I asked for the leak to be looked at prior to inspection. A plumber found the problem.</blockquote>
Did the seller/s disclose the leak on the sellers disclosure forms? It was great that you were diligent like that and another reason why I would recommend that ALL BUYERS have an active role in inspecting the property when the inspector is there (especially with older homes).</blockquote>


I have not received any disclosures. It is still early in the process.



The escrow paperwork said th escrow company asssess a penalty for cancelling to the buyer regardless of who cancels and for any reason.</blockquote>
I've never heard of an escrow company imposing a penalty on canceling an escrow (that's not to say it's unheard of). I would threaten to report them to the DRE and DOC if they do try to charge you that canceling fee because you are exercising your right under the inspection contingency to exit the transaction. I'd be willing to bet that they backpedal and dont charge you anything.
 
As was mentioned, all slab foundation houses will eventually suffer from slab leaks. There are many factors: contraction/expansion from temperature extremes, soil composition (acidity), foundation settlement, high water pressure, etc. My old neighborhood in HB was notorious for slab leaks...every house had one sooner or later. My neighbor had a new driveway put in...the vibrations from the jack hammering caused a slab leak.



For one story houses...there is an easy fix. Repipe the house running all pipes through the attic...this only leaves the supply line going through the slab. This can be done for under 5K, it's messy and will require dry wall and painting repairs. Two story houses get more complicated. You can spend a bunch on repairs.



Here are some quick tips to avoiding slab leaks. Run the water heater temperature as low as possilbe (within reason) and set the water pressure (assuming you have a pressure regulator) as low as possible...50 psi is good.



If you really like this house, tell the seller to lower the price by 18K and tell them you will fix it. Good luck.
 
[quote author="davenlei" date=1253824434]If you pressed the wall with your foot, water dribbled out faster. Had the agent order a plumber and he identified the slab leak along with a lot of mold in the wall/cabinets</blockquote>If there is mold in the walls and cabinets, does that mean the leak beneath the slab caused the foundation to crack? Otherwise, how did moisture get up into the structure?



Or perhaps a copper elbow just above the slab started leaking.

Did inspector completely miss this ?
 
Other than being cheaper to construct, what benefits does slab have over raised foundation? Does slab support a 2nd floor more easily?
 
[quote author="xoneinax" date=1253838814]Other than being cheaper to construct, what benefits does slab have over raised foundation? Does slab support a 2nd floor more easily?</blockquote>


No other benefits. Hides sink hole below slab. Moisture transfer to the bottom of flooring such as mold. The biggest problem is the floor being too close to grade susceptible to flood and moisture seepage.



There is one advantage. Tiles do not need a mortar bed and just thin set applied. Raised foundation can cracked tiles due to deflection of floor joists. Slab can support a heavier load vs raised foundation. Most raised foundation can support 20 people in a dining room unless one throws a huge party where slab has an advantage.
 
As a couple of others have said, slab leaks are a reality and pretty much inevitable. If you want to buy older properties (20 years or older) I would not be shocked to see a slab leak at any of them. I wouldn't expect it, but it wouldn't shock me. I don't think it is an issue that should cause you to 'run away' from the house as many others have recommended. It is just something that you need to factor into your price. Personally I would discount my price more than the actual cost to fix the existing leak due to the risk of additional future leaks.
 
Slab leaks are not a function of age either. I know several people living in south county with new construction (5 to 10 years old) who have had slab leaks. One person in Ladera has had 2 slab leaks in the past 5 years. Luckily the builder payed for both repairs. Homeowners of older houses can be SOL. Homeowners insurance usually only picks up the tab for damages to property caused by slab leaks...not the tab for the reapir.



Some areas are prone to them, others are not. When I was living in HB, a plumber told me that the local slab leaks keep him in business...they are that common.
 
All slab foundations will leak eventually. Repair is the most expensive due to structural foundation work and welding in tight restricted space. Post tensioned slab would be extremely expensive to repair. 2 homes I owned previously had leaks below the slab. I had to abandon the line on one because the plumbing deterioration was so bad I rerouted the plumbing in the attic.



A raised foundation was one of my "must have" criterias in buying a home.
 
Builders will continue to bury pipes below the slab because it is still the cheapest way to build. The odds of leakage within the warranty period still favor the builders financially.
 
Subterranean termites, wood fungus and dry rot, ant infestation and insect damage to wood studs are all slab foundation issues when wood is just a few inches above grade. Sprinklers and capillary effect also quickly deteriorate wood studs.
 
[quote author="xoneinax" date=1253838599][quote author="davenlei" date=1253824434]If you pressed the wall with your foot, water dribbled out faster. Had the agent order a plumber and he identified the slab leak along with a lot of mold in the wall/cabinets</blockquote>If there is mold in the walls and cabinets, does that mean the leak beneath the slab caused the foundation to crack? Otherwise, how did moisture get up into the structure?



Or perhaps a copper elbow just above the slab started leaking.

Did inspector completely miss this ?</blockquote>


Well, I saw the initial repair was a leak in the wall at the sink in the kitchen. Mold had taken over the entire cabinet around the kitchen sink and the wall by the pipe. They repaired that but more leaking continued, that is when they realized another leak was in the slab in the same general area.
 
[quote author="USCTrojanCPA" date=1253831212][quote author="davenlei" date=1253831072][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1253825336]Who found the leak? You or the inspector?</blockquote>


I saw water coming from where water should not. I asked for the leak to be looked at prior to inspection. A plumber found the problem.</blockquote>
Did the seller/s disclose the leak on the sellers disclosure forms? It was great that you were diligent like that and another reason why I would recommend that ALL BUYERS have an active role in inspecting the property when the inspector is there (especially with older homes).</blockquote>


This happens to be the property where the sellers wanted me to reduce my contingency rights for everything from 17 days to 7 days upon bank approval. Now I know why.... Shady....
 
[quote author="davenlei" date=1253788958]I am in the process of purchasing a short sale property and discovered there is a slab leak in the kichen area. The cost to repair is going to be around $14K-$18K and sellers stated they will 'fix' it. Not sure they really will since they do not have the money to fix it and it is a short sale.

Either way, let's say they will pony up the money. Would you still purchase the house knowing there is a slab leak and to repair it they had to cut into the foundation and part of the exterior wall to repair it?</blockquote>


Hellllllll no



Foundation problems are a major issue and be can be a nightmare to fix, and what's to say there's not something else you aren't going to "discover" later





Walk away and find something better, this is a deal breaker
 
Well. Just signed the cancellation of Escrow and noted in my email the cancellation was due to the discovered slab leak and extensive black (possibly toxic) mold growing in the cabinets and walls and I expect my deposit back in full. If not, I am going to be pissed. Good thing I have a friend who is a Real Estate Attorney if things get bad.
 
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