Definition of Middle Class?

I agree with you phan.

While in Irvine... middle class could be $250k... for the majority of the US... it has to be more like $100k (or even lower).
 
OCgasman said:
How can being in the top 2-3% of household incomes be considered middle class?  That's retarded. 
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I think u need to look at it from two perspectives. On a national level 250k is not middle class. Regionally though, I would say 250k is middle class in various parts of OC just because of how expensive housing is
 
But if you can afford that sort of housing are you still middle-class?  I'm not suggesting this makes them "rich" or "in the 1%", just that I don't see for instance, a majority of Irvine residents as middle-class compared to other regions in So Cal.
 
For the average American household, housing is the single biggest cost, so housing is intimately tied to the affordability index, no argument here.  But outside of some major metropolitan areas such as NYC, the Bay Area, Boston, parts of LA/OC, housing isn't at the stupid prices seen in those areas.  A household with $250k can live VERY well in the Midwest, South, Northwest, North...pretty much anywhere except areas with inflated housing.  What is the article saying or more cogently what is Obama and Romney saying...that the middle class has become a tiny fraction of the population?  The median household income in America is approx $50k.  Look, we all know that this arbitrary line of demarcation is about who to tax and how much to tax.  I don't wanna get too political, and don't think everyone should be taxed equally, but taxes are pretty crazy from local, state to federal...even for the "middle class."
 
phanpd said:
But if you can afford that sort of housing are you still middle-class?  I'm not suggesting this makes them "rich" or "in the 1%", just that I don't see for instance, a majority of Irvine residents as middle-class compared to other regions in So Cal.
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Agreed.  Bemoaning how your mortgage on an Irvine home makes you feel "middle class" is like complaining about how registration fees on your Ferrari and private jet affect your place in the pecking order at the country club.  Most people have options; some assume they don't.  Remember that a lot of people who work in Irvine--or Manhattan for that matter--don't live there.
 
defining class/income is a political move

the census itself arbitrarily cements 100k+, 200k+, and 250k+ as magic numbers... but the actual income distribution is MUCH more right skewed... there is no data for those making 300k+,350k+,400k+, and so on... the right skewed tail in the states is EXTREMELY long lol...

a household income making 200k could live real well off and have tremendously more upwards mobility then someone making 250k depending on location, age, and source of income (labor/investments/etc)... the census numbers dont tell us that... neither do they tell us about their savings and other assets

politics is bait n switch... focusing our attention on some arbitrary 250k number, that is beyond the imagination of lower class and just in range for the middle making us think that both obama or romney is on our side... while all this time, bernanke inflates the money away hurting the lower class the MOST and effecting the upper class the least...

for me income is just numbers... what really matters that determines what "class" ur in is self determination of what u want to do with ur life/career, financial freedom, and further upwards mobility... the "middle" class usually has some degree of self determination and high upwards mobility with the end goal of achieving financial freedom, thats when u know ur in the upper class, not an arbitrary number...

i remember reading studies on millionaires that dont even consider millionaires in the study whose primary source of wealth is their primary residence... the studies only count those with equity/2nd homes/other assets that exceed a million dollars... true someone making 250k could easily be well on their way to becoming financially free compared to someone in a lower bracket, but at the same time one making 250k could also be nearing the end of his/her career ...  or u could be in banking easily making big money, but only temporary, (maybe they simply burn out, decide on a career switch, and/or get laid off during regular house cleaning)... doesnt necessarily mean these folks enjoy a "upper class" lifestyle that most ppl envision even though on paper they are defined as "upper class"

rather what concerns me politically is how upwards mobility is actually decreasing here, but rarely do politicians talk about this... its like its taboo or they just pay lip service to it... nobody wants to truly address this issue...

and to a lesser extent, nor do politicians want to address the debt culture that we have that promotes living above our means where it is so easy for someone making crap money to borrow so they can seem like they live a middle or upper class lifestyle... this type of culture causes mad problems for everyone else... like our housing crisis... anybody can easily say they are "upper class", they just find someone to lend them money =_=
 
homer_simpson said:
If you can't buy a million dollar home with all cash then your middle class... nevermind... not FCB.
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hmm... what if u buy TWO 500k homes all cash?... can... can that person still qualify as middle class? lol
 
America is the 3rd or 4th largest country on Earth, and has over 315 million residents.  There are huge disparities in demographics and income across the country.  National averages cannot accurately represent the country as a whole.  Even in Taiwan, a small island state, there are large disparities in income between rural areas and urban cities.

Your upward mobility is dependent on your ability and hunger.  Many poorer immigrants are able to climb up to the middle class because they belong to the small % of "hungry", or motivated people who are willing to abandon everything and go to a foreign country to build a new life.  The type who sees lions in the street would simply stay home.

Personally, I find the concept of "middle class" to be as silly as "average Joe".  Words like "most" and "average" really mean mediocre -- of moderate quality, not very good, ordinary, and hiding behind the crowd.  When career politicians speak of "average American", we need to keep in mind that the privileged lives of successful sociopaths are not anywhere near that of an "average American".

Instead of "middle class" or "median income", it'd be better to publish income distributions by city, county, and state.
 
According to the 2010 Census data for Irvine, CA:
The median household income is $92,599
The mean is $115,822
Per Capita income is $43,102.
Only 14% of Irvine household income exceeds that of $200,000.

I am scratching my head? How is $a 250,000 household income considered middle class in Irvine? How many of you guys on Talk Irvine actually make a household income of $250,000 or more? If you do, you considered to be in the top 10% of income earners.
 
I am not sure about how to define middle class, but this is how i define real wealth.

It is important to make the distinction between real wealth and a wealthy pretense so that you don't get sucked into a lifestyle led my the wealthy pretenders of the world. Wealth itself is always relative. But for people to be considered wealthy, they should meet the following two criteria.

1) They should have enough money to never have to work again if that is their choice.

2) They should have investments, pension, or a trust fund that can provide them with twice the level of their country's median household income over a lifetime.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median U.S. household income in 2009 was $50,221. Based on my definition of wealth, if an american's investments can annually generate twice that amount ($100,442 or more), that that person is rich.

Earning twice as much money as the median household in your home country without having to work is a financial luxury many people can only dream about. A person who makes $250,000+ or lives in a million dollar+ home in Irvine in itself doesn't necessary mean that person is wealthy.

world chaos said:
defining class/income is a political move

the census itself arbitrarily cements 100k+, 200k+, and 250k+ as magic numbers... but the actual income distribution is MUCH more right skewed... there is no data for those making 300k+,350k+,400k+, and so on... the right skewed tail in the states is EXTREMELY long lol...

a household income making 200k could live real well off and have tremendously more upwards mobility then someone making 250k depending on location, age, and source of income (labor/investments/etc)... the census numbers dont tell us that... neither do they tell us about their savings and other assets

politics is bait n switch... focusing our attention on some arbitrary 250k number, that is beyond the imagination of lower class and just in range for the middle making us think that both obama or romney is on our side... while all this time, bernanke inflates the money away hurting the lower class the MOST and effecting the upper class the least...

for me income is just numbers... what really matters that determines what "class" ur in is self determination of what u want to do with ur life/career, financial freedom, and further upwards mobility... the "middle" class usually has some degree of self determination and high upwards mobility with the end goal of achieving financial freedom, thats when u know ur in the upper class, not an arbitrary number...

i remember reading studies on millionaires that dont even consider millionaires in the study whose primary source of wealth is their primary residence... the studies only count those with equity/2nd homes/other assets that exceed a million dollars... true someone making 250k could easily be well on their way to becoming financially free compared to someone in a lower bracket, but at the same time one making 250k could also be nearing the end of his/her career ...  or u could be in banking easily making big money, but only temporary, (maybe they simply burn out, decide on a career switch, and/or get laid off during regular house cleaning)... doesnt necessarily mean these folks enjoy a "upper class" lifestyle that most ppl envision even though on paper they are defined as "upper class"

rather what concerns me politically is how upwards mobility is actually decreasing here, but rarely do politicians talk about this... its like its taboo or they just pay lip service to it... nobody wants to truly address this issue...

and to a lesser extent, nor do politicians want to address the debt culture that we have that promotes living above our means where it is so easy for someone making crap money to borrow so they can seem like they live a middle or upper class lifestyle... this type of culture causes mad problems for everyone else... like our housing crisis... anybody can easily say they are "upper class", they just find someone to lend them money =_=
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The simplest definition of middle class that I've seen is to subtract the lowest 25% of earners and the highest 25% of earners.  The remaining 50% in the middle is considered middle class.

Does the census strip out the college students attending UCI when calculating household income?  If not, I would say strip them out because income from working at In N Out doesn't determine if they are middle class or not.  Then recalculate median household income minus college student "households".  I'm betting 250k might be on the upper bounds of Irvine's middle class.
 
I am in agreement with Liar Loan, the 2010 Census can't be accurate when assessing income.

I assume most would under report (the tax man watcheth) and there is large contingent of older people who live in Irvine (Woodbridge is like LeisureWorld Central), foreigners and students who make almost nothing. We had a neighbor who lived in Taiwan and his kids lived in the house to go to school... I wonder what their income was.

I thought we were middle class about 10 years ago, now we make probably double that and I think we are at the low end of middle class.
 
Yikes! the low end of middle class? Why do you have to be so humble and admit this out to the public?

I don't know about you, but I much rather be a UCI student and rank in the top 10% than to be a UC Berkeley student and rank in the bottom 10%.

irvinehomeowner said:
I am in agreement with Liar Loan, the 2010 Census can't be accurate when assessing income.

I assume most would under report (the tax man watcheth) and there is large contingent of older people who live in Irvine (Woodbridge is like LeisureWorld Central), foreigners and students who make almost nothing. We had a neighbor who lived in Taiwan and his kids lived in the house to go to school... I wonder what their income was.

I thought we were middle class about 10 years ago, now we make probably double that and I think we are at the low end of middle class.
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irvinehomeowner said:
I am in agreement with Liar Loan, the 2010 Census can't be accurate when assessing income.

I assume most would under report (the tax man watcheth) and there is large contingent of older people who live in Irvine (Woodbridge is like LeisureWorld Central), foreigners and students who make almost nothing. We had a neighbor who lived in Taiwan and his kids lived in the house to go to school... I wonder what their income was.

I thought we were middle class about 10 years ago, now we make probably double that and I think we are at the low end of middle class.
Click to expand...

Your neighbor who lived in Taiwan probably belongs in the "low income, asset rich" class.  Similar to a lot of FCBs who got rich because their land/properties appreciated.  Since they have probably gone thru tough times in the past, they will drop the money on a house in "safe" and "convenient" Irvine, but you wouldn't know they were "rich" by their frugal lifestyle and spending habits.

That's one reason politicians want a "wealth tax", cause, you know, there's too many "rich" people hoarding money out there.  :p

"It's not what you make, it's what you keep that matters" applies here.
 
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