Commercial real estate is the next shoe to drop and recovery is a long way out

<a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7a415fae-5f60-11de-93d1-00144feabdc0.html#">Worries over systemic risk in CMBS sector</a>



<em>Even as conditions in many parts of the credit markets have improved, a big question mark hangs over one large part of the market that is still dysfunctional: the market for securities backed by commercial mortgages.



Behind the scenes, regulators are acutely aware that the commercial real estate market is one of the few potential remaining sources of systemic risk if the financing problems cannot be fixed.



William Dudley, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, highlighted this this month: ?The revival of the commercial mortgage-backed security market is essential to stabilising the commercial real estate market.



?If the availability of funding for this market is not restored, the downturn in commercial real estate valuation and the losses for the holders of these assets will be greater. This will, in turn, likely further constrain credit availability. That?s the vicious cycle we want to lean against.?



The clock is ticking with some of the $3,400bn of loans made to property developers for anything from urban office tower blocks to shopping malls across the US due for payment.</em>



http://www.ft.com/cms/e164bb78-5f50-11de-93d1-00144feabdc0.jpg



<em>Although the CMBS sector faces a series of downgrades ? bringing echoes of subprime mortgage-backed securities ? there are important differences.



First of all, only a quarter of commercial mortgages are securitised ? the proportion was much higher for subprime mortgages. Also, there was not the same amount of derivatives and securities linked to commercial mortgages.



The subprime mortgage collapse was so damaging because billions of dollars of securities were linked to their value through derivatives. The commercial mortgage issue is vital for US banks, which have much reduced capacity on their balance sheets, meaning they are not as able to roll over and refinance maturing loans. In addition, there are concerns about losses once properties that are not in a good state have to be refinanced.



In other words, there will be properties where the value is far less than the loan, and additional equity has to be found.



?At least two-thirds of the loans maturing between 2009 and 2018 ($410bn) are unlikely to qualify for refinancing at maturity without significant equity infusions from borrowers,? says Richard Parkus, analyst at Deutsche Bank.

<strong>

?Bank and life companies, which make up approximately 50 per cent and 10 per cent of the [$3,400bn commercial real estate] market, respectively, must also be considered,? said Mr Parkus. ?The same combination of deteriorating underwriting standards and excessive price inflation were operating in bank and life company lending [as in the CMBS market].?</strong>



The Fed?s initial plans are aimed at funding new securities backed by new mortgage loans. The complication is that the decision to lend commercial mortgages, unlike credit card or auto loan backed securities, is very closely linked to the interest rates available on existing CMBS. The collapse of the sector and the departure of numerous buyers of CMBS led to a huge increase in interest rates, and these remain high.</em>



Where are all those people from 06 and 07, who thought I was nuts the CRE would collapse? I would sincerely like to ask them how they feel about CRE now. I tried to warn them, you need jobs to fill office space and for consumers to spend money. I hope some at least listened a little, and did some deeper research than the crap they got from CBRE and Voit, because man... were they wrong.
 
The LA Times just wrote a piece about the struggles of luxury hotels (specifically Four Seasons). I'm wondering how long Pelican Hill can survive without some serious rethinking of their model. My husband played a round there yesterday and said that the hotel, restaurant and course were like a ghost town. I think we've discussed this somewhere else in the forum, but seriously, how long can they hold on?
 
TIC has pockets deeper than we could imagine. They spent a Billion building this resort and I am sure, more than willing to let it sit on their balance sheet for a long time to come. The loss is just an entry on a sheet of paper to them.



I have a friend thats a Caddy. He tells me its so slow. But every once in awhile they get up to 20-30% occupancy. The 3 times I have been ther for a meeting or drinks. Its been very slow

as well.



The real question about these 5 Star Mega Resorts is what about St. Regis ?



And it looks really ugly for California Hotels in the near term



<a href="http://www.realestatechannel.com/us-markets/vacation-leisure-real-estate-1/california-hotel-defaults-atlas-hospitality-san-bernardino-county-alan-x-reay-alex-finkelstein-1005.php">http://www.realestatechannel.com/us-markets/vacation-leisure-real-estate-1/california-hotel-defaults-atlas-hospitality-san-bernardino-county-alan-x-reay-alex-finkelstein-1005.php</a>
 
Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>
I think I'm gonna go take a peak to see who the lenders were for both properties.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>


Irvine has decoupled from Calif and is now a self sufficient economy fueled by FCB'rs. Geez, Graph when the last time you left your house? All those buyers of WE now enjoy a prefect view of Catalina now that Irvine has relocated to the Pacific.
 
[quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1247713679][quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>


Irvine has decoupled from Calif and is now a self sufficient economy fueled by FCB'rs. Geez, Graph when the last time you left your house? All those buyers of WE now enjoy a prefect view of Catalina now that Irvine has relocated to the Pacific.</blockquote>
Are you talking about the United People's Republic of Irvine?
 
[quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1247688983][quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>
I think I'm gonna go take a peak to see who the lenders were for both properties.</blockquote>


Let me guess, Citibank?
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. </blockquote>


Somebody needs a hug.
 
[quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1247720684][quote author="Mcdonna1980" date=1247713679][quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>


Irvine has decoupled from Calif and is now a self sufficient economy fueled by FCB'rs. Geez, Graph when the last time you left your house? All those buyers of WE now enjoy a prefect view of Catalina now that Irvine has relocated to the Pacific.</blockquote>
Are you talking about the United People's Republic of Irvine?</blockquote>


I thought we were the Peoples Front of Irvine



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE&feature=related</a>
 
[quote author="ABC123" date=1247720903][quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1247688983][quote author="graphrix" date=1247676392]Just today <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18900+DOUGLAS,+Irvine,+CA">18900 Douglas, 92612</a> went back to the bank for $6mil, when the debt was $36,472,896.69. Also <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=10650+Los+Alamitos+Boulevard,+Los+Alamitos,+CA+90720">10650 Los Alamitos Boulevard, 90720</a> went back to the bank today for $2mil, when just over $4mil was owed.



If anyone really cares about the economy anymore (the damn TICrolls in the WE thread waste everyone's time), then I will post some stats from CBRE. It ain't pretty. But since what is more important to discuss are the dumb foreign buyers, who failed econ 101 and rely on info from the press (Bren knows to publish in the Asian papers), then I am a bit reluctant to waste my time in putting in the effort of such a post. I'm still waiting for someone to answer what year the article I posted is from.</blockquote>
I think I'm gonna go take a peak to see who the lenders were for both properties.</blockquote>


Let me guess, Citibank?</blockquote>
Looks like the bagholder on 10650 Los Alamitos Blvd is Troa Inc. to the tune of a $6,500,000 mortgage. For whatever reason, my system doesn't pull off the info on 18900 Douglas. :/
 
From CBRE's Q2 report:



http://i29.tinypic.com/23j3j9d.jpg



<em>Office vacancy and availability in Orange County continued to rise during

the second quarter of 2009. The overall vacancy grew 3.7% since the first

quarter from 16.1% to 16.7% county-wide. Total availability also rose

this quarter from 22.4 % to 23.0% a growth of 2.6%. All five submarkets

experienced an increase in vacancy and availability this past quarter. North

Orange County and West Orange County saw the biggest jump in vacancy

going from 12.5% to 13.9% and 8.9% to 9.6% , respectively. The Greater

Airport Area?s vacancy followed suit growing from 17.5% to 18.2%. Central

Orange County and South Orange County continue to increase vacancy;

both growing in the second quarter from 16.9% to 17.4% and 15.3%

to 15.4%.</em>



Total vacancy is up 92% from Q2 06 of 12% to Q2 09 of 23%.



http://i31.tinypic.com/70kyo3.jpg

<em>

The monthly average asking lease rates for Orange County office product

declined in the second quarter nine cents to $2.33 down from $2.42 per

square foot in the first quarter. Class A office properties lease rates shrunk

from $2.68 last quarter to $2.56 per square foot currently. Class B lease

rates also declined going from $2.18 to $2.11 per square foot along with

Class C property rates shrinking the most; going from $2.00 to $1.81 per

square foot. The Greater Airport Area witnessed the biggest drop in prices;

a twelve cent decline from $2.60 to $2.48 per square foot. North and

Central Orange County rates both dropped by eight cents from $2.19 to

$2.11 per square foot and $2.06 to $1.98 per square foot, respectively.

South Orange County shrunk by eight cents dropping from $2.45 to $2.37

per square foot. West Orange County saw the smallest decline in rental

rates only experiencing a three cent drop; going from $2.14 to stand at

$2.11 per square foot.</em>



Keep in mind, this is for asking rates, not actual lease rates. I have heard of deals for class A in the sub $2 range.



The peak lease rate was $2.78 in Q4 07, at $2.33 it's down 16.2% from the peak.



http://i29.tinypic.com/2d7y3di.jpg



<em>The Orange County total net absorption figure experienced in the second

quarter of 2009 was a negative 597,440 square feet. The Greater Airport

Area had the largest amount of negative absorption with 336,924 square

feet which was mainly due to the closing of the Washington Mutual campus

in Irvine. The second largest give back of space was in North Orange

County; posting a negative 113,291 square feet mainly attributed to the

give back of space which was occupied by Fremont Bank. Both Central and

West Orange County also posted negative net absorption with negative

85,100 and negative 37,011 square feet totals. South Orange County had

the least amount of negative net absorption this quarter with a negative

25,114 square feet.</em>



Since Q2 06, OC has had a negative absorption of roughly <strong>4,800,000</strong> square feet. I remember debating with someone here that the huge negative absorption stats from Q3 07 and Q1 08 were not bad only because of subprime lenders going bust, but part of the additional problem. They were in CRE, and told me I was wrong, and because they were in the business they knew more than me. Oops. Basic econ is not that difficult to understand.



This is one of my favorite gems from CBRE (I really wish they would make their market outlooks in their current reports, they stopped after being wrong again and again):



<em>The Orange County office market has and will continue to experience the effects of the sub-prime mortgage industry, while proving

to remain strong. Significant activity has recently been witnessed in Mid-Rise, Class B properties, suggesting a growing trend among

companies to move into this section of the market because of its lower price options. An expanded economy in the long-term will

lead to more and more tenants slowly seeking space in this market. According to Moody?s Economy.com, the economy is projected to

expand at a sub-par rate through the middle of next year before regaining its momentum.</em>



When you read that, isn't it obvious of what is really happening?
 
Knew this was coming a LONG time ago. Just can't figure out how to support these places without l o n g term funding or purchasing them for the literal pennies on the dollar.
 
<a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18883+Von+Karman+Avenue,+IRVINE,+CA+92612">18883 Von Karman Avenue</a> back to the bank today. $45mil owed, REO for $20mil. Check out the street view. Did they ever break ground?
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1248355027]<a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=18883+Von+Karman+Avenue,+IRVINE,+CA+92612">18883 Von Karman Avenue</a> back to the bank today. $45mil owed, REO for $20mil. Check out the street view. Did they ever break ground?</blockquote>


That is the Dupont Lofts project. It is almost complete. Across the street from Bistango.



It is a 115 unit condo project. It will go through its foreclosure process and come out the other side with a new buyer who will either auction off the units or convert it to apartments.
 
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