jcaraway_IHB
New member
NewVOC, any updates on why you took down your blog?
Columbus Grove - Buyer Beware
- Thread starter NewVOC_IHB
- Start date
NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
Are you seriously putting this forward as an argument in favor of HOAs?
If my neighbor wants to renovate his house into unsaleability, that's his prerogative. If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I'll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks.
At what point did we decide that HOAs were 'necessary' to maintain the sanctity of our neighborhoods?
I agree with you. If you want some insight into JCaraway's thinking, either buy or check out Bourgeous Nightmares Property values are sacrosanct over all else. ;-)
With the advent of zoning and other planning codes, HOAs are less necessary than they used to be for those who wanted to make sure that their neighbor didn't turn his house into a liquor store or conduct full scale mining operations.
You're being sarcastic, right? Right?!? Please tell me that you are otherwise your . . . um, youth and biases are showing.
Oceania has not always been at war with East Asia.
1. Litigiousness. HOAs are the lawyers' full employment act. From the initial drafting of the documents, to advising the HOA, to dealing with the ADR (e.g., mediation) and eventual litigation, lawyers are involved throughout the entire process. Please explain to me how HOAs reduce litigation? Given the inexhaustible laundry list of rules, they would seem to increase litigation. Further, not only does the HOA enforce the rules, an affected landowner may as well. So you have one more party to add to the mix who can sue and/or be sued. Contra, e.g., Costa Mesa. They had instituted (and I believe still use) the process created by the Legislature several years ago to process code violations administratively. A citation is issued. If one wishes to dispute the citation, you go to the administrative hearing. From there, that decision can be appealed to the OC Superior Court. If there is a use restriction on the deed, a CM citizen can sue the landowner for enforcement of that provision. If not, one is left with Code Enforcement. Of course all cities, pre- and post-, with or without HOA can use the courts to abate nuisances.
2. It depends on what you mean by common interest development. For those that own improvements (streets, parks, pools, etc.), you pretty much need an HOA or other corporation to hold and maintain the improvements (you could probably do it by joint venture or partnership, but I think that would be messy - and unnecessary since the Legislature was kind enough to create an entire statutory scheme for common interest developments, as defined by statute. Prior to CIDs, however, there were deed restrictions. Take, for example, Hancock Park. Because developers (or, really, subdividers) in the 1870 - 1920s era believed that deed restrictions that ran without expiration might violate the rule against perpetuities (just google it) and be unenforceable, they added cut-off dates. With the impending cut-off date on the deed restriction, some deed restricted neighborhoods created their own HOAs. Notably, other places, like Hancock Park, have not (although it does have a community association that does not function like an HOA). The deed restrictions, if any, and local codes are enough. Also, is a CID the default? Many places in California were developed without CIDs.
3. Prop 13 and HOAs do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, although I can understand why a local public entity would like them. Rather than using the city's revenue to keep up the streets, parks, trees, etc. the HOA gets to pay for it. Without an HOA, the local public entity gets to exercise its traditional responsibilities of maintaining infrastructure. Of course, sometimes that local public entity is not the city or county (if the land is located in an unincorporated area), but a Mello-Roos district, er "Community Facilities District."
There are millions of homes located in areas without HOAs and they function just fine. Many of the issues you are concerned about are more dependent on who your neighbors are rather than who enforces the rules or owns the streets. Jerks can live in communities with HOAs just like they can live in communities without them.
PS: Can someone please explain how to put in line breaks? Mere carriage returns don't work. Thx.
okay you clearly don't understand the implicatons of prop 13, due to reduced property taxes, city's (justified or not) felt that they didn't have funds to maintain infrastructure and landscaping in new communities, hence they left it up to special districts and hoa's to maintain because they felt reduced funding left them with no choice. Why would you want the police or the beuracratic and politcal mess of a city resolving your problems as opposed to a limited community run governance structure?
NewVOC_IHB
New member
S
EvaLSeraphim_IHB
New member
New - If you're concerned about liability, start here.
25inIrvine_IHB
New member
Wouldn't you only have to be worried about libel if you were posting false information?
jcaraway_IHB
New member
Your community should have website maintained by the HOA, yeah, okay, maybe not the place for the most up to date news. I think, if you request it, your HOA is required by law to mail you a meeting agenda a few days in advance.
I think your caution is warranted newVOC, not from a libel standpoint as so much your reputation. I think you will be held responsible for any content posted on a blog or even a forum you participate in, whether it be justified or not justified. Not to mention being subject to misinterpretation.
I think your caution is warranted newVOC, not from a libel standpoint as so much your reputation. I think you will be held responsible for any content posted on a blog or even a forum you participate in, whether it be justified or not justified. Not to mention being subject to misinterpretation.
k.o._IHB
New member
Wow, after reading this entire ordeal I must say that these HOAs all too often to be power hungry dictatorships. Definitely makes me think that when I can afford something I'm going to buy where there's a relaxed or no HOA, or LA... etc.
Yet another reason I long for the "old" days in Irvine...
Yet another reason I long for the "old" days in Irvine...
jcaraway_IHB
New member
The old days include the neighbor converting their garage into a 4th bedroom and parking their RV outside your house.
jcaraway said:
Are you seriously putting this forward as an argument in favor of HOAs?
If my neighbor wants to renovate his house into unsaleability, that's his prerogative. If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I'll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks.
At what point did we decide that HOAs were 'necessary' to maintain the sanctity of our neighborhoods?
jcaraway_IHB
New member
khung, where do you live? Let me guess, a cabin in montana?
"If my neighbor wants to renovate his house into unsaleability, that’s his prerogative." - well, when someone renders their house "unsellable" it generally drags the property values of the neighbors down as well, so it's not their "prerogative". It's a property rights issue, neighbors are entitled to some expectation of the land use around them due to their effect on property value and way of life or else we could have service stations mid block in residential neighborhoods. I guarantee you, when your neighbor decides to put up a 12 foot block wall on your property line to keep the crazys out, you aren't going to say its his pergoative.
"If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I’ll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks." - putting my sarcarsm hat on, yeah, real good solution because since thats the way you would do it, it applies to the entire world. Nothing makes for better neighbor relations than calling the cops on them. I'd rather have the HOA than the cops breathing down my neck or having to deal with no responsive cops.
"At what point did we decide that HOAs were ‘necessary’ to maintain the sanctity of our neighborhoods?" - i think it was when people couldn't resolve their difference and folks like you started calling the cops for every infraction. Furthermore, HOA's aren't just their to enforce regs, common interest developments require HOAs to maintain not just amenities, but also shared walls, landscaping and some infrastructure as well as insure the development.
I'm not saying HOA's aren't over reaching, but since the points you've made here clearly come from an unsophisticated and uneducated source, yeah, I'm putting this forth as an argument in favor of HOAs.
"If my neighbor wants to renovate his house into unsaleability, that’s his prerogative." - well, when someone renders their house "unsellable" it generally drags the property values of the neighbors down as well, so it's not their "prerogative". It's a property rights issue, neighbors are entitled to some expectation of the land use around them due to their effect on property value and way of life or else we could have service stations mid block in residential neighborhoods. I guarantee you, when your neighbor decides to put up a 12 foot block wall on your property line to keep the crazys out, you aren't going to say its his pergoative.
"If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I’ll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks." - putting my sarcarsm hat on, yeah, real good solution because since thats the way you would do it, it applies to the entire world. Nothing makes for better neighbor relations than calling the cops on them. I'd rather have the HOA than the cops breathing down my neck or having to deal with no responsive cops.
"At what point did we decide that HOAs were ‘necessary’ to maintain the sanctity of our neighborhoods?" - i think it was when people couldn't resolve their difference and folks like you started calling the cops for every infraction. Furthermore, HOA's aren't just their to enforce regs, common interest developments require HOAs to maintain not just amenities, but also shared walls, landscaping and some infrastructure as well as insure the development.
I'm not saying HOA's aren't over reaching, but since the points you've made here clearly come from an unsophisticated and uneducated source, yeah, I'm putting this forth as an argument in favor of HOAs.
EvaLSeraphim_IHB
New member
khung said:
I agree with you. If you want some insight into JCaraway's thinking, either buy or check out Bourgeous Nightmares Property values are sacrosanct over all else. ;-)
With the advent of zoning and other planning codes, HOAs are less necessary than they used to be for those who wanted to make sure that their neighbor didn't turn his house into a liquor store or conduct full scale mining operations.
jcaraway_IHB
New member
eva, how one even think that hoa's are unnecessary in this litigious world we live in?
how can a common interest development even work without an HOA?
how can any development in this post prop 13 world work without an HOA?
the answer is d. none of the above/they can't. They aren't unnecessary or less than necessary, they are essential, for better for worse.
how can a common interest development even work without an HOA?
how can any development in this post prop 13 world work without an HOA?
the answer is d. none of the above/they can't. They aren't unnecessary or less than necessary, they are essential, for better for worse.
graphrix_IHB
New member
how can any development in this post prop 13 world work without an HOA?
Okay, now you are being a bit over dramatic. Cities/communities worked just fine before HOAs with CC&Rs, and OMG they still do. Come to my city, and my CC&Rswill bitch slap your HOAs back to pre-prop 13 days. You want to park your RV on the street, you want to work in your garage more than any of your 20 neighbors combined, you neglect your lawn, leave your trash cans out too long or not put them out of sight, leave a car parked too long, park your oversized commercial truck overnight, and you have no idea what etc. is, then you get to meet the sheriff of OC, and the next time it is a hefty fine. Every single one of these things have been taken care of on my 16 home cul-de-sac in the last 3 years. I know, because I have been on both ends of this.
Come on dude, now you just sound like a shill for a community with HOAs. Lame... :-/
Okay, now you are being a bit over dramatic. Cities/communities worked just fine before HOAs with CC&Rs, and OMG they still do. Come to my city, and my CC&Rswill bitch slap your HOAs back to pre-prop 13 days. You want to park your RV on the street, you want to work in your garage more than any of your 20 neighbors combined, you neglect your lawn, leave your trash cans out too long or not put them out of sight, leave a car parked too long, park your oversized commercial truck overnight, and you have no idea what etc. is, then you get to meet the sheriff of OC, and the next time it is a hefty fine. Every single one of these things have been taken care of on my 16 home cul-de-sac in the last 3 years. I know, because I have been on both ends of this.
Come on dude, now you just sound like a shill for a community with HOAs. Lame... :-/
EvaLSeraphim_IHB
New member
jcaraway said:
You're being sarcastic, right? Right?!? Please tell me that you are otherwise your . . . um, youth and biases are showing.
Oceania has not always been at war with East Asia.
1. Litigiousness. HOAs are the lawyers' full employment act. From the initial drafting of the documents, to advising the HOA, to dealing with the ADR (e.g., mediation) and eventual litigation, lawyers are involved throughout the entire process. Please explain to me how HOAs reduce litigation? Given the inexhaustible laundry list of rules, they would seem to increase litigation. Further, not only does the HOA enforce the rules, an affected landowner may as well. So you have one more party to add to the mix who can sue and/or be sued. Contra, e.g., Costa Mesa. They had instituted (and I believe still use) the process created by the Legislature several years ago to process code violations administratively. A citation is issued. If one wishes to dispute the citation, you go to the administrative hearing. From there, that decision can be appealed to the OC Superior Court. If there is a use restriction on the deed, a CM citizen can sue the landowner for enforcement of that provision. If not, one is left with Code Enforcement. Of course all cities, pre- and post-, with or without HOA can use the courts to abate nuisances.
2. It depends on what you mean by common interest development. For those that own improvements (streets, parks, pools, etc.), you pretty much need an HOA or other corporation to hold and maintain the improvements (you could probably do it by joint venture or partnership, but I think that would be messy - and unnecessary since the Legislature was kind enough to create an entire statutory scheme for common interest developments, as defined by statute. Prior to CIDs, however, there were deed restrictions. Take, for example, Hancock Park. Because developers (or, really, subdividers) in the 1870 - 1920s era believed that deed restrictions that ran without expiration might violate the rule against perpetuities (just google it) and be unenforceable, they added cut-off dates. With the impending cut-off date on the deed restriction, some deed restricted neighborhoods created their own HOAs. Notably, other places, like Hancock Park, have not (although it does have a community association that does not function like an HOA). The deed restrictions, if any, and local codes are enough. Also, is a CID the default? Many places in California were developed without CIDs.
3. Prop 13 and HOAs do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, although I can understand why a local public entity would like them. Rather than using the city's revenue to keep up the streets, parks, trees, etc. the HOA gets to pay for it. Without an HOA, the local public entity gets to exercise its traditional responsibilities of maintaining infrastructure. Of course, sometimes that local public entity is not the city or county (if the land is located in an unincorporated area), but a Mello-Roos district, er "Community Facilities District."
There are millions of homes located in areas without HOAs and they function just fine. Many of the issues you are concerned about are more dependent on who your neighbors are rather than who enforces the rules or owns the streets. Jerks can live in communities with HOAs just like they can live in communities without them.
PS: Can someone please explain how to put in line breaks? Mere carriage returns don't work. Thx.
acpme_IHB
New member
well, when someone renders their house "unsellable" it generally drags the property values of the neighbors down as well, so it's not their "prerogative".
i wonder if there's ever been any work done on whether this is actually true or not. i imagine it's difficult to gather data on this because it's completely subjective. but personally i think the property value argument is way overblown. if a neighbor renders their house unsellable for some reason, they are probably breaking the law in some form -- whether its a building ordinance, city code, or something far more criminal. there are remedies to these problems that have been in place long before hoas were the norm. i'd bet more often than not "unsellable" is grossly exaggerated.
i was at my friend's in TR last yr and at the time they were doing landscaping. their neighbor came over while we were outside to talk and claimed that the landscaping materials all over my friend's lawn, esp a portapotty that the workers left) were lowering his property value and the reason he has been unable to sell his home. i found out that his home was listing at >$2M. no argument from us that a portapotty isnt exactly attractive but it's complete BS to think that somehow hurts property values. as if potential buyers of $2M homes are so clueless they've never seen landscaping in progress and assume stacks of building materials and portapotties must be permanent fixtures. of course, no one complained when values were going up tens of thousands each month during build-out and the neighborhood was filled with construction noise and dump trucks streaming up and down the street all day long.
...or else we could have service stations mid block in residential neighborhoods. I guarantee you, when your neighbor decides to put up a 12 foot block wall on your property line...
there are zoning and city ordinances that handle these sort of issues and do even in neighborhoods with no HOA. my neighbor is doing an extensive remodel of his home (its more like a complete teardown) and the new roof is apparently going to be 2 inches too high. he had to request a hearing with the city, neighbors were all informed of the hearing and invited to participate. he presented his case, no one had a problem -- problem solved. no hoa involved.
"If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I’ll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks." - putting my sarcarsm hat on, yeah, real good solution because since thats the way you would do it, it applies to the entire world.
kind of a odd response -- i think it is in fact a real good solution! if my neighbor thinks i might be parked illegally, he just needs to ask. no need to call the hoa so it costs me a fine when i would have gladly moved it for him if he let me know. this could be handled with simple interaction between human beings -- doesn't require an oversight body to deal with. and if i were a jackass about it and the parking was indeed illegal, yes, that's something for the police to deal with.
... the points you've made here clearly come from an unsophisticated and uneducated source...'
totally unnecessary. not sure how you came to that conclusion.
at the end of the day, everything the hoa takes care of can be handled by PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP. it's ridiculous to say that landscaping, maintenance, and neighbors painting their houses purple would be out of control without an hoa because there are countless neighborhoods in OC that are gorgeous and immaculate, even though homeowners have five times as much land to maintain as their irvine counterparts. all the hoa does is allow homeowners to get lazy and provide a vehicle for them to hide from their responsibilities as neighbors -- in the true sense of the word, not just the guy living next door.
i wonder if there's ever been any work done on whether this is actually true or not. i imagine it's difficult to gather data on this because it's completely subjective. but personally i think the property value argument is way overblown. if a neighbor renders their house unsellable for some reason, they are probably breaking the law in some form -- whether its a building ordinance, city code, or something far more criminal. there are remedies to these problems that have been in place long before hoas were the norm. i'd bet more often than not "unsellable" is grossly exaggerated.
i was at my friend's in TR last yr and at the time they were doing landscaping. their neighbor came over while we were outside to talk and claimed that the landscaping materials all over my friend's lawn, esp a portapotty that the workers left) were lowering his property value and the reason he has been unable to sell his home. i found out that his home was listing at >$2M. no argument from us that a portapotty isnt exactly attractive but it's complete BS to think that somehow hurts property values. as if potential buyers of $2M homes are so clueless they've never seen landscaping in progress and assume stacks of building materials and portapotties must be permanent fixtures. of course, no one complained when values were going up tens of thousands each month during build-out and the neighborhood was filled with construction noise and dump trucks streaming up and down the street all day long.
...or else we could have service stations mid block in residential neighborhoods. I guarantee you, when your neighbor decides to put up a 12 foot block wall on your property line...
there are zoning and city ordinances that handle these sort of issues and do even in neighborhoods with no HOA. my neighbor is doing an extensive remodel of his home (its more like a complete teardown) and the new roof is apparently going to be 2 inches too high. he had to request a hearing with the city, neighbors were all informed of the hearing and invited to participate. he presented his case, no one had a problem -- problem solved. no hoa involved.
"If he wants to park his RV in front of my house, as a grown adult, I’ll sort it with him, and call the cops if I need to, and deal with it without an overbearing HOA breathing down our necks." - putting my sarcarsm hat on, yeah, real good solution because since thats the way you would do it, it applies to the entire world.
kind of a odd response -- i think it is in fact a real good solution! if my neighbor thinks i might be parked illegally, he just needs to ask. no need to call the hoa so it costs me a fine when i would have gladly moved it for him if he let me know. this could be handled with simple interaction between human beings -- doesn't require an oversight body to deal with. and if i were a jackass about it and the parking was indeed illegal, yes, that's something for the police to deal with.
... the points you've made here clearly come from an unsophisticated and uneducated source...'
totally unnecessary. not sure how you came to that conclusion.
at the end of the day, everything the hoa takes care of can be handled by PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP. it's ridiculous to say that landscaping, maintenance, and neighbors painting their houses purple would be out of control without an hoa because there are countless neighborhoods in OC that are gorgeous and immaculate, even though homeowners have five times as much land to maintain as their irvine counterparts. all the hoa does is allow homeowners to get lazy and provide a vehicle for them to hide from their responsibilities as neighbors -- in the true sense of the word, not just the guy living next door.
jcaraway_IHB
New member
graphrix said:
okay you clearly don't understand the implicatons of prop 13, due to reduced property taxes, city's (justified or not) felt that they didn't have funds to maintain infrastructure and landscaping in new communities, hence they left it up to special districts and hoa's to maintain because they felt reduced funding left them with no choice. Why would you want the police or the beuracratic and politcal mess of a city resolving your problems as opposed to a limited community run governance structure?
jcaraway_IHB
New member
not saying HOA's don't reduce legal battles and i'd agree they are more litigiuous. What i did say was much more broad, that the reality of the world we live in is litigous and any industry, especially for sale res housing, is going to have to adapt to the standard of rules and regs. Come on! Comment on what i type, not what you think.
Furthermore, hoa's being more litigious is not a bad thing necessarily, certainly it's abused in many cases, however, it does offer homeowners additional recousre against the developer and municipalities.
Furthermore, hoa's being more litigious is not a bad thing necessarily, certainly it's abused in many cases, however, it does offer homeowners additional recousre against the developer and municipalities.
jcaraway_IHB
New member
"Ok, and I’m saying that maybe your opinions come from a source that is too used to having other people make your decisions and usurp your responsiblities."
nice come back.
"You know, you’re right. It does apply to the entire world. For once, everyone in the world should finally start taking care of their own business instead of shuffling their responsibilities onto someone else. Stand up and be an adult! " - clearly, you don't get out of the house much. You may be the righteous jesus fearing person you see yourself as but that guy next door, well he's a Buddhist married to a catholic and you need a vehicle to defend yourself. But i agree, it's a lifestyle decision, if you want to live in north county without the HOA's that's fine, but those are larger lot developments with no common area ammentieis where the city has assumed ownership of the streets and sidewalks. New master planned communities are attractive because of the continutiy of design and ammenities, and due to prop 13, cities are unwilling to obtain ownership of many infrastructure improvements.
"If his car’s parked in front of my drvieway, I’m going to go over to his house, knock on the door, and ask him to move it." - sure, that's a given, my example is if he parks his rv in from of your house, not driveway. Although it would be neighborly for him to move it to storage, you have no right to ask as it's in the public right of way.
This is fun!
nice come back.
"You know, you’re right. It does apply to the entire world. For once, everyone in the world should finally start taking care of their own business instead of shuffling their responsibilities onto someone else. Stand up and be an adult! " - clearly, you don't get out of the house much. You may be the righteous jesus fearing person you see yourself as but that guy next door, well he's a Buddhist married to a catholic and you need a vehicle to defend yourself. But i agree, it's a lifestyle decision, if you want to live in north county without the HOA's that's fine, but those are larger lot developments with no common area ammentieis where the city has assumed ownership of the streets and sidewalks. New master planned communities are attractive because of the continutiy of design and ammenities, and due to prop 13, cities are unwilling to obtain ownership of many infrastructure improvements.
"If his car’s parked in front of my drvieway, I’m going to go over to his house, knock on the door, and ask him to move it." - sure, that's a given, my example is if he parks his rv in from of your house, not driveway. Although it would be neighborly for him to move it to storage, you have no right to ask as it's in the public right of way.
This is fun!