Co-Habitation

[SoCal78_IHB]

I wish I had friends I can call if my wife and I got in a big fight at 2am in the morning.

Think carefully, Panda. You do have this already. "No longer do I call you servants"..."I have called you friends" John 15:15. There is the person to call at 2 in the morning, Panda.

 

[caycifish_IHB]

Cohabitation is a big deal, and not to be taken lightly. It is real life. It is the everyday. It should only be entered into by choice, and not by necessity. Each person should be able to, at any time, move out and function as a financially independent adult. Living together to save on finances is all well and good, but each person should still be able to live independently if the relationship falters. Living together is the adjustment to another's habits and the compromise that often entails. Living together is who will do the dishes, and who will make out the rent check, and what is on the TV tonight?

Marriage is a $14 piece of paper from the county clerk. However, it comes with certain legalities that make it safer, in my book, to enter into joint debt. Buying a house with someone I was not married to sounds like a terrible idea. It (large joint debt, that is) really is a risky thing anyway, but something about having the marriage contract in place makes me feel better about it.

I come to this out out my own personal experience. Nothing but my name changed once I had my piece of paper to prove to various entities that I was married.

I still don't have the other piece of paper that ends my marriage contract. But damn, the day my husband moved out was a very, VERY good day.

 

[no_vaseline_IHB]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the love affair between Panda and Roundcorners was going to start.

But... but... but... Panda is not gay.

Don't let that stand in your way. True Love FTW!

I read a study about 20 years ago in some sociology journal that people who dated for three years and didn't live together had a divorce rate in the low single digits. The highest were folks who got married right away (less than 4 months, higher than 70% divorce rate) and those that lived together for an extended period of time before getting hitched (I don't remember the time, but the rate was worse than 70%).

 

[momopi_IHB]

 

[irvine_grad_IHB]

Costal, thank you so much for sharing…

I think I’m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don’t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.

I’m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree…

To address your first few points… I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I’m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I’m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don’t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don’t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other’s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won’t be married today, if it weren’t for our church…

That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB… Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?

I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.

I’m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn’t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?

Dude, you SO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O go to Mariners.

we do life together

It sounds like Kenton in my monitor.

We go to the 11:00 service on Sunday. You?

We will have to meet in the cafe someday.

sounds a lot like dave gibbons of newsong too. i'm betting they have similar styles. "our church is our small group" == church w/o walls, yes?

 

[roundcorners_IHB]

This thread is not meant to be confrontational. I have had some heated debates over this topic before. Before I write any further; just let me say that I have pretty much done all the above, except for buying a house period. I just want to get a general consensus of what is currently socially acceptable in the OC regarding co-habitation. If you have an opinion or argument either way, let’s hear it…

Now, as some of you know I am a conservative Christian. Now I haven’t always walked the perfect path as a Christian, no one has, but I’ve always struggled with this aspect of my walk. Not raised in the most ideal model of a functional nuclear family, I don’t really know what a normal family looks like. I’ve argued before with church friends and came to heated discussions that living together before marriage is perfectly acceptable. I’ve even shared bank accounts and bought cars together. However as I matured through the years; and as those relationships became more and more serious, I started to treat dating, courting and the issue co-habitation more significantly.

Here is my take and my best opinions for waiting till you are married to live together. I think there are certain relationships that are meant to forever be sacred. They are so life changing, brain chemistry altering and emotional vested that it is only best reserved with an official title such as marriage. When I would dabble or pretend to be married; or “test drove” the process all that does is cheapen the authenticity of the real thing. I wanted all the enjoyments/benefits of a marriage without all the responsibility and consequences of a marriage. When things got too hot, both parties can simply walk away. There wasn’t a covenant or agreement that says; I will NEVER leave you no matter what.

Couples without the safety of that agreement will never fully be themselves. You can never fully really get to know someone completely. Most married couples can tell you that they have argue beyond the point of where most courting couples would have already given up; and they still have to come together the same house/bed afterwards.

You don’t have to live together to learn about your potential mate’s character, values, attitudes and beliefs. They can all be demonstrated in activities, situations, and conflicts. There will always be conflict in relationships. There will always be differences in opinions and arguments. The only difference is, will those differences be worked out in a household where both parties always agree to come back together or separate at the first major disagreement.

I have to disagree with you based upon my own personal experience. I am Catholic raised by old school Catholic European parents, although I'm not as religious as most of my family is. Anyhow, I think the says that "you don't know someone until you live with them" couldn't be anymore true. Back in my late 20s I was in a 3 year relationship and discussed the matter with my ex gf about moving in together before we even think about getting married. She agreed and me lived together for about 3 months before we realized that we just couldn't live with each other and decided to mutually end the relationship. I would have sucked if we would have gotten married and then figured out we just couldn't live together under one roof.

I hate to be the one to break the news to you SC, but you are never going to get along perfectly fine all the time with the person you live with. There is always going to be issues; there will always be conflict. You will always have to work things out. If it is not major issues like anger (rage with us), deep insecurities (check, again), passive aggressiveness (me); then it is going to be tedious minor ones such as; where to place the trash can, or which way the toilet paper should roll.

All relationships will be battles; they are all worth fighting for. Working through these problems build your character, it stretches you emotionally and you can learn a lot about yourself through the process if nothing else. Now some battles are more on the winning side and some are more difficult. Like all things, some couples have it easier. Both temperaments just happen to match; both have some sort of conflict resolution skills and both can think clearly under enormous emotional stress. Some have poor copping skills, and poor models of what to do in conflicts. Either way, you and the person you eventually end up with will come to a point where both of you will need to decide whether to work it out or call it quits. I’m just saying, it’s a little harder to call it quits when you made a vowel before, God, family and friends to stick it through not matter what; then to simply start the relationship casually living together.

BTW, couples that never fight scare me… There has to be issues there; it will get brought up eventually… Fighting is very healthy as long as there are rules of engagement and both parties fight fair...

 

[roundcorners_IHB]

Costal, thank you so much for sharing…

I think I’m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don’t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.

I’m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree…

To address your first few points… I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I’m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I’m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don’t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don’t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other’s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won’t be married today, if it weren’t for our church…

That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB… Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?

I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.

I’m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn’t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?

Dude, you SO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O go to Mariners.

we do life together

It sounds like Kenton in my monitor.

We go to the 11:00 service on Sunday. You?

We will have to meet in the cafe someday.

actually no... but down the street

 

[SoCal78_IHB]

BTW, couples that never fight scare me… There has to be issues there; it will get brought up eventually… Fighting is very healthy as long as there are rules of engagement and both parties fight fair...

RC - I'm in one of those relationships. We rarely, if ever, fight. I think the last time we fought was about three years ago. It isn't because we aren't addressing issues, it's because issues usually aren't present and when they are, we've had years of fine-tuned practice in getting to know each other so we know how to handle these situations more effectively. It wasn't always like this. When we first entered the marriage he was very passive. But when he used to get angry, he would just blow up and we've had several holes in the wall, broken furniture, and other things. (It's always the quiet type!) On the other hand, I was very passionate (though, never violent) and always wanted to be victorious in the argument. Over time we learned how to handle situations more effectively. He learned that it is better to take a walk than throw things. I learned not to push his buttons, especially over trivial issues or things that are out of his control, and not to speak until I can do it with a pure heart. We both realized it is more important to diffuse a situation than to have to always be right. I can only speak from my side of it, but I have grown a lot in this area. I think as women, when we are unhappy we tend to whine and complain. Husbands don't like this and it turns them off from wanting to help us, or even be around us. I have a friend who totally emasculates her husband, even in public, when she is unhappy with him (which is basically all the time.) Yelling at, demeaning, and insulting our husbands will get us no where. I think us wives have to be smart. Example: I want something fixed and it's been lying around the house for six weeks while I've asked him repeatedly if he would do it. I can nag him to death or get mad but this will create additional problems. How about this? You make him a nice dinner, you tell him what a great husband he is and how much you love and appreciate him. Then In front of him - you pick up his tools and "try" to do it yourself. Say that it's ok, you understand he's tired (or whatever), and you don't mind taking care of this yourself. You make a poor attempt and perhaps ask him if you're doing it right. He sees this and says you're not doing it correctly. He tells you to step aside and show you how it's done. Voila! Another one: There is something very important to you that you want to discuss and he isn't receptive to the idea. It doesn't really matter what the issue is, it can be anything. I have had women friends who try to get even and say "if you're not going to give me X, I'm not giving you Y." Some will even shut off access to private relations. My advice: Do the exact opposite. Do not mistake this for thinking that I am saying the answer to any problem is sex, because it is not. What I have learned though, is that women can't have a physical connection until they feel they are being heard and understood.... but the secret we don't realize is that men work just the opposite - when they feel "appreciated", their ears click on and they are more receptive. I think as wives, it helps us to stop the complaining, be less demanding, show appreciation when they do things right and everyday "just because", and to act in love. We often need to take the high road and make the first step. I ask myself every day, "If he had to marry me all over again today, would he?" If I think the answer is no, then I know I need to make an adjustment. I have noticed when I put in more effort, he does too, and that's when we have each of us putting the other's needs before our own, which in my opinion, is one of the keys to a long and happy marriage.

 

[awgee_IHB]

Costal, thank you so much for sharing…

I think I’m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don’t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.

I’m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree…

To address your first few points… I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I’m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I’m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don’t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don’t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other’s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won’t be married today, if it weren’t for our church…

That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB… Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?

I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.

I’m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn’t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?

Dude, you SO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O go to Mariners.

we do life together

It sounds like Kenton in my monitor.

We go to the 11:00 service on Sunday. You?

We will have to meet in the cafe someday.

actually no... but down the street

There is another mega church in Irvine? Down the street? Where?

 

[IrvineRealtor_IHB]

Marriage is a lot like real estate:

1. There is a high rate of default for those that invest with zero equity and 100% financing.

2. Be prepared to pay for maintenance, in time and money.

3. Finding the right one pays dividends beyond measure.

4. Settling for the wrong one costs more than you could imagine.

...and

5. Once subprime; always subprime.

-IrvineRealtor

 

[biscuitninja_IHB]

I waited 6! years to get married to my wife. We lived with each other so that we could both get an absolutely clear idea of what we were getting into.

We still maintain our separate accounts so that we can have full automony over our independent finances. But we are responsible for each of our separate bills (although we do help each other ).

This takes care of the money issue and hopefully teaches my wife how to manage (i think one of the worst things you can do is dump a huge amount of money on somebody....).

Anyways just a few thoughts....

-bix

 

[centralcoastobserver_IHB]

But So Cal..... he's an adult man, not a child, and not an employee you "manage." It makes me really uncomfortable to think that women feel they need to manipulate their husbands into doing something that the family or household needs done. It's one thing if you want to make him a nice dinner and tell him how much you appreciate him because you do.... it's a whole new level of deceit, to me, to do those things just as a means to manipulate him into doing what you want.

How about setting a time limit, and then hiring someone to make the repairs if it can't be done by your husband? That seems, to me, to be the most reasonable response, especially if there's no recriminations about how "Well, we wouldn't have had to spend $120 if you had just done what I asked you to..."

 

[tmare_IHB]

But So Cal..... he's an adult man, not a child, and not an employee you "manage." It makes me really uncomfortable to think that women feel they need to manipulate their husbands into doing something that the family or household needs done. It's one thing if you want to make him a nice dinner and tell him how much you appreciate him because you do.... it's a whole new level of deceit, to me, to do those things just as a means to manipulate him into doing what you want.

How about setting a time limit, and then hiring someone to make the repairs if it can't be done by your husband? That seems, to me, to be the most reasonable response, especially if there's no recriminations about how "Well, we wouldn't have had to spend $120 if you had just done what I asked you to..."

Where in the world did you get anything even close to manipulating or managing from what she said? All I took from that is that when a person makes an extra effort to make another person feel loved and appreciated, it is reciprocated. Sometimes we do things we don't feel like doing because we know it is the best thing for those that we love and it makes us better people as well (this is actually what having kids is all about). It truly has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation.

 

[centralcoastobserver_IHB]

Well, I'd buy the "no manipulation" aspect if So Cal suggested that rather than nagging her husband, she just fixed it herself. But to wait and "try" to fix it in front of him, "making a poor attempt" and then asking him if she was doing it right... all sounds way too much like manipulation to me. That's how I got guys to fix flat tires for me when I was in high school. It's not how I want to treat an equal partner, or how I want to be treated.

I agree that treating one another well is the best recipe for a happy family!

 

[tmare_IHB]

Here's how it works in my house: I see something that I think SHOULD be done by my husband and don't say anything, guess what? Nothing gets done. OR I see something that needs to be done and I ask him to do it, and then he does it. I've learned that my husband does not actually see anything that needs to be done (even the obvious things), however, if I ask him, he does it. I could sit around and be annoyed by the fact that he doesn't see it or I can just ask him. Men and women are so very different. I notice he behaves just like his dad and this somehow makes me act just like his mom does towards his dad. Not a bad thing since they've been happily married for 45 years.

 

[stepping_up_IHB]

My husband and I both agreed that we did not want to live together until we were married. We're not Christians, but we both felt that you are either committed to the relationship or not. However, 2 years into dating he moved in with me because it was very wise financially. At this point we both already knew that we were going to get married, it was just a matter of when it was going to all unfold. Two months after living together he proposed and he actually started planning the proposal when he moved in.

It was definitely a learning experience those first few months as we were mid 30's and early 40's, yet neither of us had ever been married or lived with a partner before. Well, I had lived with a boyfriend in my early 20's and decided to never ever do that again. We both knew we probably weren't going to stay together for the rest of our lives, but a convenience thing led to it and I decided right then and there to never ever get in that situation again.

Hubby and I spent more nights together than we did apart while we were dating, but it was still a huge adjustment living together because we both were already set in our ways. We both were uncomfortable that we were doing what we said we didn't want to do, but it was really the right decision for us and we don't regret it. One of the hardest things was breaking it to his Catholic parents that we were living together. They took it very well and I think it was because they knew we weren't that far off from marrying and I'm sure they knew their son was already getting the milk without buying the cow.

I actually think that because we both knew it was inevitable that we were going to spend the rest of our lives together, that it was easire to look at the inefficincies of the finances for us long term. He had a 1 bd that was almost as much as my 3 in a much better location. We kept one of my roommates for a about a year to help build that 20% down and be debt free after paying for the wedding. Once we got married, the roommate had to go.

That being said, hell no would I have considered buying property with him before we were married. And not surprisingly we still have our own bills and checking accounts. Over time it has merged more, but still we don't have a joint checking account. We do have one credit card that technically is mine, but we put all of the house stuff and other joint purchases on like travel and good wine. It gets paid at the end of the month by both of us. Money is the thing we rarely fight about, so it works.

 

[centralcoastobserver_IHB]

Yep, that's clearly a difference between men, children, and women. (Although perhaps it's "moms" more than women in general....) Kids and men can step over the pile of towels in the bathroom a kazillion times, and when you ask one of them to put the towels in the washing machine, the response is "what towels???"

I think it's selective blindness, and they all hope the house elves will just come do the work.

 

[SoCal78_IHB]

But So Cal..... he's an adult man, not a child, and not an employee you "manage." It makes me really uncomfortable to think that women feel they need to manipulate their husbands into doing something that the family or household needs done. It's one thing if you want to make him a nice dinner and tell him how much you appreciate him because you do.... it's a whole new level of deceit, to me, to do those things just as a means to manipulate him into doing what you want.

How about setting a time limit, and then hiring someone to make the repairs if it can't be done by your husband? That seems, to me, to be the most reasonable response, especially if there's no recriminations about how "Well, we wouldn't have had to spend $120 if you had just done what I asked you to..."

Thank you for your comment, centralcoast. I am sorry that my comment made you feel uncomfortable especially because maybe you've been in a position where the husband does not follow through with putting in as much effort as you have and that happens too. I don't think I do a very good job conveying my point. I probably should have left the relationship advice to the men - RC and Panda - because those two were doing so much of a better job than I ever could. (I am really proud of both of you guys!) But I figure we weren't getting a lot of voice from wives here, so I tried to chip in. Tmare's perception of my post is accurate. Oh believe me, I do not consider my husband an employee. LOL! I have respect for him as the man of the house. It honestly makes my skin crawl when my women friends do talk to their husbands like incompetent little children or even subordinates. The part about showing him appreciation and then attempting to fix something was meant somewhat in jest. RC's question was how do coupes avoid fighting. (Think "I Love Lucy" here. She doesn't get upset. She just finds creative ways to get the job done. ;-) ) But (unlike her?) I do try to act with pure intentions, such as if I want an honest attempt made at helping me, I will first provide at honest attempt at helping him. I definitely do think we have to model the behaviors we'd like to see in our relationships... and that pretty much goes for any of our relationships. If that is called treating them like children, so be it, but I just don't think it's quite the same thing. When I tell him I love and appreciate him, it is true regardless if he does the task or not. I do love him and I do appreciate him. They are not artificial words used to scam him. Sometimes I have tried picking up the tools and that gets him upset. You don't touch a man's tools unless he has expressed permission to do so. They can be sensitive about that just like a woman driving their car. You have to be careful to not step on toes. I think giving him an ultimatum before you call a handyman is not the best choice. I mean, you have to know your husband but I just know mine would be upset. That is threatening to him and setting him up to make him look like a failure. Once he has disappointed you, he will not want to try again. I do not give ultimatums or make threats. I haven't had to call a repair man yet. I did live with a messy garage for six years, though, because he would not clean it after six years of asking and nothing else working. I could have hired somebody to do it. Instead, I gave up. It wasn't important enough to go to battle over. I love him more than a clean garage, and he loves that I backed off.

I don't suppose anybody here enjoys Dr. Laura, eh? Well I do like her "pickle jar" theory. When the jar needs opening, let him do it and show appreciation for it. Yeah, we know maybe we can do it ourselves. But men still like to feel big and strong and that you do need them. I think they do want to come home to a place where they are wanted, loved, and appreciated. Give them something to come home to. Just my 2 cents. I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.

 

[kcmkane_IHB]

5. Once subprime; always subprime.[/b]

-IrvineRealtor

My wife got a kick out of that one. Still laughing now.

 

[roundcorners_IHB]

Costal, thank you so much for sharing…

I think I’m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don’t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.

I’m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree…

To address your first few points… I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I’m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I’m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don’t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don’t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other’s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won’t be married today, if it weren’t for our church…

That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB… Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?

I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.

I’m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn’t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?

Dude, you SO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O go to Mariners.

we do life together

It sounds like Kenton in my monitor.

We go to the 11:00 service on Sunday. You?

We will have to meet in the cafe someday.

actually no... but down the street

There is another mega church in Irvine? Down the street? Where?

irvinegrad guess it... newsongis my church