Chinese LIMAO, K?QI & Iranian Ta'arof

R

roundcorners

New member
I wanted to name this thread:

This is why most Asian I know are F***** up, Part II... but seeing as how I've been out of Irvine for more than a year now; I'm in a better place now, hopefully.

This by any means is not intended to be derogatory by any means.  I'm simply trying to be a cultural coach here; and as always, I'm asking for feedback on how valid my observations are.  If you deal with Asian of any kind, I feel it's important to at least be aware of cultural differences from Western Culture.

These differences are so divergent that we don't even have words to describe it.  They simply have never been translated.  But they exist, they are real, they govern a lot of what you "feel" when a bunch of Asian gather together.

A quick google search brings up these hits for LiMao & KeQi
http://secondchina.com/Learning_Modules/AWARE/content/AWR_polite_limao_keqi.html

Very similarly, Iranians have something call Ta-arofhttp://www.deepdyve.com/lp/de-gruyt...of-in-persian-and-limao-in-chinese-EGt6yktsWY

If you have just 10 minutes, just listen to this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdyMkFMY_Xk[/youtube]

I don't have time to go into the specific details; and I can go into more detail about personal experiences later.  But it is the MAIN reason why Asians drive me so crazy!!!
 
I listened to it. So, which part drives you crazy - being the on the offering end or the receiving end? I thought you liked the "Mi Casa Es Su Casa" concept because that's what you're constantly talking about being in search of. I remember you mentioned wanting to feel like you could walk into your neighbor's home and go into their ice box for a snack and same with yours or something to that effect. If they're being generous & considerate of the other person, I don't get what the problem is.
 
SoCal78 said:
I listened to it. So, which part drives you crazy - being the on the offering end or the receiving end? I thought you liked the "Mi Cases Es Su Casa" concept because that's what you're constantly talking about being in search of. I remember you mentioned wanting to feel like you could walk into your neighbor's home and go into their ice box for a snack and same with yours or something to that effect. If they're being generous & considerate of the other person, I don't get what the problem is.
Click to expand...

You are adorable for using the term "ice box." :)
 
I just want people to be real and authentic.  The closets translation to LiMao is manners or being polite and the closest word to KeQi is being embarrassed, more or less or being shammed to the extent of being extreme just in case you offend someone.

But LiMao & KeQi goes way, way beyond just being polite or having manners.  It?s a set of social rules that gives the pretense of being polite, it?s almost doing something out of spite; it?s doing something out of inconvenience just so you can have a reason to be passive aggressive, two-faced or just hate the person in private.

People are already difficult to be with in general; and we don?t need another layer on top of that to make things worse.

In the brief article here is what KeQi says:

On the other hand, k?qi is a formal politeness that involves keeping a certain amount of distance. The term can also imply that a person being polite may be hiding how s/he truly feels. Once k?qi is transcended, real and honest relationships can be forged.

Where an American may perceive a person being brusque in China, s/he may just not want to appear excessively k?qi. Chinese friends often become less and less k?qi as the friendship develops to the extent that it?s acceptable for them to make blunt critical remarks towards each other. This signifies trust between the two people as you cannot do this with acquaintances.
Click to expand...

KeQi is VERY difficult to overcome; it takes literally YEARS for a relationship to be considered authentic or real.  Chances are you will never have an authentic relationship with a causal Asian neighbor.  In western culture, at least you will know immediately if someone is willing to have the possibility to go deeper.  Most Westerners tell you upfront, hey, you are alright, you are welcome anytime; or go F-off and never come back.  Asians will always HINT what they feel, it is a constant moving target, and you will NEVER know what or how someone feels about you.

This is one topic that has a lot to unpack, it is a huge emotional burden that I?m still healing from and adjusting to?  It just takes soo much energy for me to deal with... so this is gonna take some time? bare with me?
 
Nice video seeing beautiful Tehran make me nostalgic. 

Roundcorners- maybe the Asian version of ta'arof is doing something out of spite, but it is not the case for Persian ta'arof. 

I am of Iranian descent and yes I have to deal with ta'arof- it can be tiring.  It happens more so in my parent's generation here in the US.  We don't go to the extent of ta'arof like the great aunt in Iran.  There might be one back and forth "Here have some tea"- then you say- "no thank you" then the offerer says "please, have some" - then you take the tea.  My friends (in our 40s) either do no ta'arof whatsoever, or if someone still does it- you just say "No ta'arof".  But again- it is never spiteful, or passive-aggressive or hating the person in private, as you say.
 
You know, RC, western families & people are not perfect. Trust me, if you grew up in a white family, you'd still be left with complaints as an adult. They have faults, too. People are people. The only perfect friendships and families you'll find are on T.V.

The timing of this thread is very interesting given you currently have a back-up offer in on an Irvine home in an environment that is probably much more likely to resemble what you hope to avoid.

RC, I implore you to discuss your thoughts here with Mrs. RC. I know that I, as a wife, would not want my husband to make such a big investment in something that makes him miserable. He is more than just "Johnny Paycheck" to me. I would live in a cardboard box under the freeway to be by his side. We have already turned down several opportunities that I was initially excited about which brought more money and a better standard of living because he was not feeling it. I don't always agree but got to respect his feelings on it. If you put your spouse first, it all works out for the best. I am sure Mrs. RC loves you and wants you to be content with the situation. Please let her know the type of things expressed here, if you haven't already.
 
RC - do you have any friends in the south?  I have many there and spent tons of time in north carolina and georgia.  First thing you will notice is the southern hospitality.  Everyone seems very polite, nice and friendly.  But if you talk to folks who live there, they will quickly tell you its all a facade and people are people behind closed doors.  It doesnt mean they arent really nice but that all cultures have some sort of social norms that are just facades and help us be civil to each other. 

Sure some cultures take it to the extreme but if you are trying to be friends with that person, why not just say lets drop the old protocol.  If they dont respond favorably, move on.  Seems like you keep running into the worst asians...
 
"Most Westerners tell you upfront, hey, you are alright, you are welcome anytime; or go F-off and never come back.  Asians will always HINT what they feel, it is a constant moving target, and you will NEVER know what or how someone feels about you."

Perhaps it is merely an occupational benefit, but I have met many people from all races, creeds, and subcultures that have no problem telling me to go F-off.  :D

By the same token, I've found the overwhelming majority of people to be fair, open, and compassionate when afforded the same courtesy.

RC, I am sorry to hear about your struggles to overcome some of your past personal experiences and do wish you success in coming to terms with those issues. But presenting your arguments by casting such broad-brush aspersions makes it hard to support you, and diminishes the remainder of the otherwise worthwhile comments that you contribute, IMHO.

Just my .02c
-IR2
 
Great input, thank you everyone.  IR2 I appreciate your comments, I admit I am being a bit dramatic (in my usual fashion) whether intended or not to draw views; but you might or might not have experience how twisted, sadistic or perverse certain Asian cultures can get.

Thank you for your kind words, but let?s just say I have been deeply betrayed in my past; I have been manipulated by but false flattery, false pretences to a point where I?ve committed some serious crimes because of it.  I'm not also saying that I don't have any responsibilities in this...

Yes, I?ve had my bad runs with some pretty bad Asians in general but more than that just some bad people in general.  Let?s just say, the culture really is great at hiding the insidiousness of the problem.

I am at a point where I am severely allergic to any form of LiMao or KeQi, however ever little or subtle.

I?m not saying that ALL or most people in Irvine or anywhere is subjective to this condition; or that most Asians suffer from this, but in earnestness there so many dark facets of Asiandom that most Causasions aren?t even aware of.
 
Poor R.C. Feel free to say whatever is on your mind. It will not diminish your value in my eyes and I will not label you as some kind of judgmental freak. You've obviously been very hurt by people and just trying find some compassion, if not from your own family, friends or neighbors, at the very least from us strangers online. I would definitely rather see you vent here than do something dangerous like hurt yourself. (Please reassure us you are not having those thoughts.) You're a grown man...an Asian one at that. As such, I'm sure you have enough life experience over the years where you've been in situations that myself and others here haven't been in. Who knows how any one of us would react if we were in your shoes! Don't forget you have lots of friends here. {{Squeeze}}

(Posted prior to reading your last entry.)
 
RC just opened a can of worms here. This is an interesting topic indeed. Take this to a whole different level in a relationship of Limao. If the wife or husband is horny then unlike the westerners  "lets do it with passionate sex on the spot right NOW" the passive agressive approach for the Chinese became quite apparent that neither party initiates and thus leading to frustration and resentment.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
RC just opened a can of worms here. This is an interesting topic indeed. Take this to a whole different level in a relationship of Limao. If the wife or husband is horny then unlike the westerners  "lets do it with passionate sex on the spot right NOW" the passive agressive approach for the Chinese became quite apparent that neither party initiates and thus leading to frustration and resentment.
Click to expand...

WHAT?!?!  :eek: Such a strange planet Asia is. If there is no problem morally, (i.e. they are married), what could be the reason for this?
 
pretty quiet from the Asian community about this topic...  maybe we'll have better luck tomorrow...


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf9q7twWZlc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aMX2J5iwWE[/youtube]
 
I have no idea what RC is talking about in this thread but I am interested in this:
roundcorners said:
I have been manipulated by but false flattery, false pretences to a point where I?ve committed some serious crimes because of it.
Click to expand...
Someone call the po-po on this guy already... he can stay at Musick so he'll still be in Irvine. :)
 
i am indian RC but i think you mean east asian community...and people might not be chiming in here because you really really sound sad and dead set on believing that its a horrible culture so its either just fuel on a fire or preaching to deaf ears.

and ihs, do you know the number one thing johns ask a prostitute?  BJs.  why? because they are *embarrassed* to ask their wives for one.  sexual frustration cuts across all cultures. 
 
RKP you are so right Prostution behind closed door no wonder is #1 in Irvine for those Limao conscientious ethnic population to seek relief.
rkp said:
i am indian RC but i think you mean east asian community...and people might not be chiming in here because you really really sound sad and dead set on believing that its a horrible culture so its either just fuel on a fire or preaching to deaf ears.

and ihs, do you know the number one thing johns ask a prostitute?  BJs.  why? because they are *embarrassed* to ask their wives for one.  sexual frustration cuts across all cultures. 
Click to expand...
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
RKP you are so right Prostution behind closed door no wonder is #1 in Irvine for those Limao conscientious ethnic population to seek relief.
rkp said:
i am indian RC but i think you mean east asian community...and people might not be chiming in here because you really really sound sad and dead set on believing that its a horrible culture so its either just fuel on a fire or preaching to deaf ears.

and ihs, do you know the number one thing johns ask a prostitute?  BJs.  why? because they are *embarrassed* to ask their wives for one.  sexual frustration cuts across all cultures. 
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

this thread needs to be locked  :)
 
Well, one of my prostitute friends told me something very sad. She said often times men would pay her the going rate and everything but when they would get back to the room, the guys would just want companionship to talk because their wives just didn't understand them or really even like them much. They would discuss their career, their kids, their loveless marriage, and not do anything physical. So sad when they feel they have to resort to buying love.  :(
 
The ones that only wants to talk are the worst customers. They maximized the time allotted. Hookers love Johns who paid for an hour but finish in 2 minutes flat.
 
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