Can you ever be forced to retire at any age?

socal78

socal78

Well-known member
I'm having this problem at work and thought I would vent about it here and see what might be done about it. Surely, there must be others who have experienced something similar, especially with the difficulties that seniors face today.

Problem: My manager just turned 72 years old. Her memory is slipping. She is disorganized. Her desk and files are a mess. This morning I just received yet another e-mail accusing me of messing with her calendar and lecturing me -- something that I had absolutely nothing to do with. The problem is she is just too disorganized to keep track of what's going on. She has been at the company for 28 years. She is a really sweet lady and is actually one of the first bosses that I've liked on a personal level (accusations aside but I know she means well and is just panicking because she's confused.) She always says she wants to retire but, due to her personal finances, she just isn't ready yet. After she gave me the details of her retirement plan, imho, I don't think she will EVER be able to retire. Sadly, she'll probably be one of those people who works until the day they die OR is forced to retire due to health reasons. So, the bottom line is she's functioning at work at a barely adequate level and may not go anywhere anytime soon of her own free will.

One of our customers noticed this issue on her own and told me the company could force my manager to retire -- I think she said around 65. I looked it up online. That advice does not appear to be true anymore as changes were made to the law 25 years ago regarding that. Now, it looks like there is protection against age discrimination for ages 40 plus (ADEA). I can't remember if it said the age range tops out on that or not, though. I mean, are 90 year olds still protected? I don't know.

I don't really want to tattle on my manager because she has been good to me, overall. However, I can't see anyone else setting her down to have a Come To Jesus meeting with her. The only other two people in charge are another person barely younger than her (they are BFFs so nothing will happen there) and a third manager who is almost brand new. I feel like they're just going to let my manager skate since she basically came with the furniture. Who knows -- this situation could drag out quite a while longer.

I've never worked with a person this old before. Any thoughts on how this plays out elsewhere?
 
Sounds like the reputation of the company and your self is at risk. (I don't know the entire story)

Here are your potential options:
1. You might have to tell on your boss to upper management.
2. Go straight to HR and spill the beans
3. Going forward, point out all the mistakes your boss does. Maybe she will flip out, and lose control. Then HR will have to take action.

Whatever you do, bring evidence that supports your claim.

Disclosure: I'm joking around. I wish you the best of luck.
 
eyephone said:
Sounds like the reputation of the company and your self is at risk. (I don't know the entire story)
Click to expand...

I've had similar thoughts. A few weeks ago, she and the other manager near her age made a thinly-veiled accusation against me and/or other people in my department in front of other people (again, the calendar issue). The two of them together are just a mess. They weren't sure that I was the one who did what they were thinking I did. But they strongly suggested it. I most certainly did NOT and I didn't appreciate them bringing it up in front of others like that either. When I said it wasn't me, another person began jumping in and grilling me. What's stupid is I'm honest to a fault and have even brought it to their attention when I was overcompensated -- this has happened a handful of times. They should know better by now that I'm not untrustworthy (even at my own expense) nor am I an incompetent moron who would purposely mess up their stuff. If I did ever make a mistake, I would just tell them.

However, I am where I am because my manager was the one to hand-pick me out of a pool of other candidates. That was only a matter of months ago. I couldn't help but feel like a back-stabber if I reported her to corporate. Ugh.
 
SoCal said:
eyephone said:
Sounds like the reputation of the company and your self is at risk. (I don't know the entire story)
Click to expand...

I've had similar thoughts. A few weeks ago, she and the other manager near her age made a thinly-veiled accusation against me and/or other people in my department in front of other people (again, the calendar issue). The two of them together are just a mess. They weren't sure that I was the one who did what they were thinking I did. But they strongly suggested it. I most certainly did NOT and I didn't appreciate them bringing it up in front of others like that either. When I said it wasn't me, another person began jumping in and grilling me. What's stupid is I'm honest to a fault and have even brought it to their attention when I was overcompensated -- this has happened a handful of times. They should know better by now that I'm not untrustworthy (even at my own expense) nor am I an incompetent moron who would purposely mess up their stuff. If I did ever make a mistake, I would just tell them.

However, I am where I am because my manager was the one to hand-pick me out of a pool of other candidates. That was only a matter of months ago. I couldn't help but feel like a back-stabber if I reported her to corporate. Ugh.
Click to expand...

Another suggestion: Get a new job.
 
My father in law was "forced" to retire from Mc Donald Douglas (now Boeing) years ago. They didn't just oust him, they got rid of everyone over age xx (not sure what age it was). They still needed him and hired him back as a contractor.

I think the key in trimming the work force was no discrimination because everyone over xx was terminated.

I'll bet as long as the economy is ok, your boss will stay with the company. It's really hard (emotionally for the person who has to tell her) to lay someone off who needs the money and where is a 72 year old to go?

Is there something else she can do?
 
Ready2Downsize said:
My father in law was "forced" to retire from Mc Donald Douglas (now Boeing) years ago. They didn't just oust him, they got rid of everyone over age xx (not sure what age it was). They still needed him and hired him back as a contractor.
Click to expand...
I have a friend who was forced to retire because of company age policy and immediately retained as a contractor.  He kept the same fancy corner office, same secretary, same staff, same clients, same projects, same everything, never missed a day of work in the transition from employee to contractor.  This is a way companies can age discriminate without running afoul of the law.
 
A couple more things to note:

1) Right before I started, they fired a man whose wife was 8 months pregnant. Shady. He was the assistant to one of these crazy managers (the second oldest). They accused him of doing things wrong as well. I'm sure most or all of it was in their head. His replacement started and she then quit a few months later because they treated her badly. They still talk about her like she was the one with the problem. She wasn't, though. Maybe I should see the writing on the wall.

2) My manager says she wants me to be her replacement when she retires.
 
SoCal said:
A couple more things to note:


2) My manager says she wants me to be her replacement when she retires.
Click to expand...

Don't believe everything people say at work.  They look out for themselves first and foremost.

And, she may not even remember saying that to you, since you've been "messing" with her calendar.

And, she may not ever want to retire (just like Jay Leno)...
 
Ready2Downsize said:
I'll bet as long as the economy is ok, your boss will stay with the company. It's really hard (emotionally for the person who has to tell her) to lay someone off who needs the money and where is a 72 year old to go?

Is there something else she can do?
Click to expand...

Fortunately (or unfortunately?) our field is one of the strongest in O.C. and serves what is / will be the fastest-growing demographic in the nation, particularly here. I guess that's bad if she stays indefinitely but good if I'll never be out of a job.

Yup, 72, single, living in a trailer home in Tustin. Only wants to retire if she can constantly be globetrotting. To live the lifestyle she wants to live, her financial adviser says she'll only have enough dough to last her 6 years.

What age was your FIL forced to "retire"?
 
SoCal said:
Ready2Downsize said:
I'll bet as long as the economy is ok, your boss will stay with the company. It's really hard (emotionally for the person who has to tell her) to lay someone off who needs the money and where is a 72 year old to go?

Is there something else she can do?
Click to expand...

Fortunately (or unfortunately?) our field is one of the strongest in O.C. and serves what is / will be the fastest-growing demographic in the nation, particularly here. I guess that's bad if she stays indefinitely but good if I'll never be out of a job.

Yup, 72, single, living in a trailer home in Tustin. Only wants to retire if she can constantly be globetrotting. To live the lifestyle she wants to live, her financial adviser says she'll only have enough dough to last her 6 years.

What age was your FIL forced to "retire"?
Click to expand...

65. After a few years of being a contractor he out and out retired.

 
AW said:
Don't believe everything people say at work.  They look out for themselves first and foremost.

And, she may not even remember saying that to you, since you've been "messing" with her calendar.

And, she may not ever want to retire (just like Jay Leno)...
Click to expand...

Oh, for sure. I agree. I only mentioned that she wants me to replace her because if I try to get her kicked out, I think it's going to make it look like my sole purpose is to plant my butt into her chair while it's still warm 'cause I just can't wait to "move in" and make myself at home.  :D

I often joke with Mr. SoCal, saying, "By the time she finally retires, so will I!"
 
eyephone said:
Another suggestion: Get a new job.
Click to expand...

Right now, it's so cushy that I'd have a hard time walking away. I have a ridiculous amount of freedom. I'm quite spoiled. It's perfect for now. When the time is right, maybe in a couple years, I will give my manager a *friendly* ultimatum saying it's time... up or out. However, lately, I've been wondering if I would even want it if she retired next week. I would have to be around the other (crazy) managers more often and in close quarters with them. I don't like the sound of that. Luckily, the people we serve love me and I love them. They have been telling the two old ladies that they want me there in their place (ouch). They do have A LOT of pull. They've made heads roll before. Who knows, maybe they will again.
 
I'm going to guess this is a private enterprise and not publicly traded.  it wouldn't likely change in a publicly traded firm either although they typically have a more structured HR approach.

If so, nothing will change.  The capricious dysfunction that sacked your predecessor and the assistants will eventually wrap around to whomever ends up on the wrong side of the two managers.

It's really simple, the business is growing and making money, until it doesn't nobody will step in to address the problem managers. They'll just keep rolling along.  The return on hassle isn't worth it.

Unless you have an incredible relationship with someone with enough power to make the change, you won't survive long enough to get the point across.  You bring it up, they'll brand you an unfortunate problem and talk about the Calendar issue.

Sure after about 10 people go through the same thing, they might start to notice, but I'm guessing not.

Meanwhile any hope for a lawsuit has you fighting against 70+ year olds that really believe you did what they think you did.


 
Suggestion:

Document the date, time, participants and the situation and outcome of every 'incident'.

Many years ago I had a similar situation where the older boss (who is socially very nice) would accuse people under him of taking stuff or messing things up but it was because he was very disorganized and would forget a lot.  He went through several good people on the team due to 'misconduct' or other 'issues' he blamed on them.
Eventually the blame game turned toward me.  I began keeping a 'log' of all the events which occurred where I was blamed for something that was not me.  I kept a detailed date/time/participants and detail of the issue and outcome for each time in word doc and added a new incident every time something happened.
Fast forward about six months.  He came in that day and told me that due to my 'issues' he did not see how I could continue working here.  I immediately printed out my log of incidents and went to the office of the owner of the company (it was a smaller 200 person company) and talked to him about what I was told and let him know I had a log of all the incidents against me the past six months along with incidents with some other people who were let go before.
The owner of the company told me that I am not going anywhere and he will be transferring me to another department.  He also asked me for a copy of the log I had.

Fast forward again three months.  I was working in the other department and everything was working out great and was told by my new boss I was doing an excellent job.  I saw my old boss (the one who blamed me for stuff) loading boxes into his vehicle.  I asked what was going on from the people that still worked for him and they let me know he was let go due to mistakes and issues he had running his department.

I am sure my log and complaint put a spotlight and focus on his performance or lack of causing him to be forced to move on.  I heard he found a job somewhere else and the whole cycle was starting again there with the blame game, etc.
 
Certain fields of work definitely need a "force retirement" age mainly for safety reasons. Would you want your surgeon to be 80 years old developing macular degeneration/ glaucoma and hoping to "not make a mistake" in the OR? Would you want the truck driver of that massive semi-truck sharing the road with your family to be driving at 80 plus with diminished sight and reflexes? No thanks.
I think most companies should force a retirement at minimum age 70. The problem is that most of America lives pay check to pay check, lives beyond their means, have no retirement funds (let alone any kind of plan besides social security) and figure they'll just keep working forever as long as they can. It wasn't meant to be this way when companies switched from pension plans to 401k match options. They placed the responsibility of retirement planning on the individual and we all know how that went.
I'm sure many of us have already encountered this problem in our work force. It's a good lesson to all of us to start saving for retirement early on and definitely have a plan so we could avoid this situation.
personally "working until the day you die" is a very sad situation. Many people "live to work" but life is short and I think we should all "work to live".
 
Davenlei, I love your idea. The only problem is the manager and I work opposite shifts so I never get to find out the outcomes. She will e-mail us like crazy to accuse but never with an "Ooops, my bad" follow-up (of course.) And I'm not there to see it if it does happen.

It's ridiculous how many similar e-mails I've had from her since I first created this thread. I just got another one 5 minutes ago. I will copy & paste.

Subject:
"CHRISTMAS STUFFED ANIMALS ON FRONT DESKI"

Body:
"Last weekend, apparently someone took one of our stuffed animals off the front desk (the one that is an airplane with, I believe, Snoopy ? with the propeller that lights up when you turn it on). Jesus noticed on Monday that it was missing. Any ideas who might have taken it?"

... Oh yes, of course. I took it home to sleep with it and spin the propellers while I suck my thumb to remind myself how much I love the office. I mean, come on. What does she expect me to say. That I stole a stuffed Snoopy? Why would I even do that? I'm a grown woman. I can buy my own stuffed toy if I wanted to. I don't even have small children anymore to give it to and she knows that. I take my job seriously and I think I go above & beyond to do it professionally. It's insulting that she would even think I would do this. Like I said, this is just one example of MANY I've received. It's usually more serious stuff that is related to the operations of the business, though.

The good thing is she sends these type of emails to everybody so I am not alone. I know one employee told me privately that they are so sick of it.
 
Internet camera $120.00  SD card inserted for 8 hours of crappy 480p video recording with sound.  loop record/erase.
Problem solved.
 
zubs said:
Internet camera $120.00  SD card inserted for 8 hours of crappy 480p video recording with sound.  loop record/erase.
Problem solved.
Click to expand...

And put it where, though?
 
Btw, I think Jesus must have liked that decoration, and decided to throw everyone off his trail by bringing up that it was missing. He noticed, so it must have been special to him. There was a whole bunch of them all cluttered together in a sloppy pile -- I couldn't even tell you that there was an airplane let alone which character was in it.
 
zubs said:
Internet camera $120.00  SD card inserted for 8 hours of crappy 480p video recording with sound.  loop record/erase.
Problem solved.
Click to expand...

It could be that she has some memory issues and moves these things herself. Sometimes old people move things they think others might steal, forget where they put them and then when they are eventually found, they accuse others of hiding them or stealing them and then hiding them so they wouldn't be found out.

Maybe a security camera would help if you had a long enough loop.
 
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