O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
You imply that Congress is "smart".
$825 Billion Stimulus Plan
- Thread starter trrenter_IHB
- Start date
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
[quote author="skek" date=1233212723]And frankly, who can blame the Dems? The Republicans did the same thing during their tenure in the majority, meaning that there is no political risk to being free spenders in Congress. Both parties have proven themselves to be friends of "Big Government."</blockquote>
I think it's clear now that losing the House in 1994 was the best thing to ever happen to the modern Democratic party. Maybe IrvineRenter was <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/3545/">right</a>. Maybe this is a good time for the proponents of small government and fiscal responsibility to start a new party. I know I am looking at my vote for Obama as an exercise in hopeless futility, but I can't turn back to the Republicans and "hope" they won't be corrupted by the blue-blood establishment again. Who represents my views and hopes in a political sense? Caribou Barbi? Mitt Romney? Not really options.
I think it's clear now that losing the House in 1994 was the best thing to ever happen to the modern Democratic party. Maybe IrvineRenter was <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/3545/">right</a>. Maybe this is a good time for the proponents of small government and fiscal responsibility to start a new party. I know I am looking at my vote for Obama as an exercise in hopeless futility, but I can't turn back to the Republicans and "hope" they won't be corrupted by the blue-blood establishment again. Who represents my views and hopes in a political sense? Caribou Barbi? Mitt Romney? Not really options.
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
<blockquote>The House passed an $819 billion economic stimulus package Wednesday on a party-line vote, despite President Obama's efforts to achieve bipartisan support for the bill. The final vote was 244 to 188. No Republicans voted for the bill, while 12 Democrats voted against it, CNNMoney.com reports</blockquote>
Well, I hope those twelve voted against it because it sucks, and not because it contained evil tax cuts.
Well, I hope those twelve voted against it because it sucks, and not because it contained evil tax cuts.
trrenter_IHB
New member
Then how about this.
<img src="http://www.gemaga.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/burning-money.thumbnail.jpg" alt="" />
<img src="http://www.gemaga.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/burning-money.thumbnail.jpg" alt="" />
awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.
caycifish_IHB
New member
<blockquote> "We've looked it over, and even we can't quite believe it. There's $1 billion for Amtrak, the federal railroad that hasn't turned a profit in 40 years;</blockquote>
I'd like to know what this is for. Do we get money to help out with our transportation issues? New rail lines? However, if Amtrak dies, how many jobs will be lost? Is this a job-saving move? Or is it just intended to create jobs for those who will be paid to build the infrastructure (if that's what the money is going for)?
<blockquote>$2 billion for child-care subsidies; </blockquote>
Seems like a lot, but okay, people need child-care to go to work. I get that part at least. Jobs for the care-givers/preschool teachers are a plus.
<blockquote>$50 million for that great engine of job creation, the National Endowment for the Arts; </blockquote>
If architects and engineers and researchers and construction workers and teachers and baby-sitters get what I will call "grants" so that they can keep getting paid to do what they were trained to do, why not painters and musicians and composers and writers and ballerinas? I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the arts, so when the artists' share is 2.5% of just what the child-care folks are gettting, let alone the whole package, I think people can chill out about it. And maybe even go see some live theater while they are at it. /rant
<blockquote>$400 million for global-warming research and another $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects.</blockquote>
So jobs for all those hard science majors out there. If it said "renewable energy" or "green technology research" I would make less of a face at this one. I'm skeptical of this one and its deliverables, but at least it will create jobs.
<blockquote> There's even $650 million on top of the billions already doled out to pay for digital TV conversion coupons"</blockquote>
Seriously?
<blockquote>"Congress wants to spend $600 million more for the federal government to buy new cars. Uncle Sam already spends $3 billion a year on its fleet of 600,000 vehicles. </blockquote>
Lame.
<blockquote>Congress also wants to spend $7 billion for modernizing federal buildings and facilities. The Smithsonian is targeted to receive $150 million; we love the Smithsonian, too, but this is a job creator?"</blockquote>
Jobs for electricians and construction and the like. Sweet. I sometimes work in a government building that is literally falling apart (like parts of the ceiling have fallen down into cubicles this year, and last year the heat was broken and we had to work when it was 56 degrees inside), so I'm totally cool with this one. Not sure what the money for the Smithsonian is for.
<blockquote>"Another "stimulus" secret is that some $252 billion is for income-transfer payments -- that is, not investments that arguably help everyone, but cash or benefits to individuals for doing nothing at all. There's $81 billion for Medicaid, $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits, $20 billion for food stamps, and $83 billion for the earned income credit for people who don't pay income tax. While some of that may be justified to help poorer Americans ride out the recession, they aren't job creators."</blockquote>
Minor grumbles on this one. Help for the poor, yeah, yeah. However, money not spent on meds or food is money spent elsewhere in the economy...or so I can hope.
Just because this is likely to be the end result:
http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/celebrity-pictures-joker-bailout.jpg
I'd like to know what this is for. Do we get money to help out with our transportation issues? New rail lines? However, if Amtrak dies, how many jobs will be lost? Is this a job-saving move? Or is it just intended to create jobs for those who will be paid to build the infrastructure (if that's what the money is going for)?
<blockquote>$2 billion for child-care subsidies; </blockquote>
Seems like a lot, but okay, people need child-care to go to work. I get that part at least. Jobs for the care-givers/preschool teachers are a plus.
<blockquote>$50 million for that great engine of job creation, the National Endowment for the Arts; </blockquote>
If architects and engineers and researchers and construction workers and teachers and baby-sitters get what I will call "grants" so that they can keep getting paid to do what they were trained to do, why not painters and musicians and composers and writers and ballerinas? I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the arts, so when the artists' share is 2.5% of just what the child-care folks are gettting, let alone the whole package, I think people can chill out about it. And maybe even go see some live theater while they are at it. /rant
<blockquote>$400 million for global-warming research and another $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects.</blockquote>
So jobs for all those hard science majors out there. If it said "renewable energy" or "green technology research" I would make less of a face at this one. I'm skeptical of this one and its deliverables, but at least it will create jobs.
<blockquote> There's even $650 million on top of the billions already doled out to pay for digital TV conversion coupons"</blockquote>
Seriously?
<blockquote>"Congress wants to spend $600 million more for the federal government to buy new cars. Uncle Sam already spends $3 billion a year on its fleet of 600,000 vehicles. </blockquote>
Lame.
<blockquote>Congress also wants to spend $7 billion for modernizing federal buildings and facilities. The Smithsonian is targeted to receive $150 million; we love the Smithsonian, too, but this is a job creator?"</blockquote>
Jobs for electricians and construction and the like. Sweet. I sometimes work in a government building that is literally falling apart (like parts of the ceiling have fallen down into cubicles this year, and last year the heat was broken and we had to work when it was 56 degrees inside), so I'm totally cool with this one. Not sure what the money for the Smithsonian is for.
<blockquote>"Another "stimulus" secret is that some $252 billion is for income-transfer payments -- that is, not investments that arguably help everyone, but cash or benefits to individuals for doing nothing at all. There's $81 billion for Medicaid, $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits, $20 billion for food stamps, and $83 billion for the earned income credit for people who don't pay income tax. While some of that may be justified to help poorer Americans ride out the recession, they aren't job creators."</blockquote>
Minor grumbles on this one. Help for the poor, yeah, yeah. However, money not spent on meds or food is money spent elsewhere in the economy...or so I can hope.
Just because this is likely to be the end result:
http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/celebrity-pictures-joker-bailout.jpg
green_cactus_IHB
New member
[quote author="awgee" date=1233217248][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1233217656][quote author="awgee" date=1233217248][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.
green_cactus_IHB
New member
[quote author="skek" date=1233219454]Speaking of which, interest on the spending plan is going to cost $347 billion over the next 10 years. The real cost of the bill is over $1.1 trillion.
The bill purports to create 3 to 4 million jobs, which translates into a cost of about a quarter of a million dollars per job. In contrast, the average American worker makes $27,000 a year and pays $2,400 per year in federal income taxes.</blockquote>
Isn't the amount supposed to balloon further once it hits the Senate? You may be optimistic on that estimate.
The bill purports to create 3 to 4 million jobs, which translates into a cost of about a quarter of a million dollars per job. In contrast, the average American worker makes $27,000 a year and pays $2,400 per year in federal income taxes.</blockquote>
Isn't the amount supposed to balloon further once it hits the Senate? You may be optimistic on that estimate.
bltserv_IHB
New member
[quote author="Oscar" date=1233219090][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233217656][quote author="awgee" date=1233217248][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.</blockquote>
Better to spend it here than more Infrastructure in Iraq ?
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.</blockquote>
Better to spend it here than more Infrastructure in Iraq ?
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.
awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1233217656][quote author="awgee" date=1233217248][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
I did not listen to it, so I have no idea if it was funny or not.
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
I did not listen to it, so I have no idea if it was funny or not.
awgee_IHB
New member
[quote author="bltserv" date=1233219980][quote author="Oscar" date=1233219090][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233217656][quote author="awgee" date=1233217248][quote author="green_cactus" date=1233024257]
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.</blockquote>
Better to spend it here than more Infrastructure in Iraq ?
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.</blockquote>
Isn't that the two wrongs make a right argument?
You need to listen to <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99871329">this</a> to understand how this stimulus plan will work.</blockquote>
Mr. Cactus - It would seem to me that a part of "<em>understanding how this stimulus plan will work</em>", should include understanding where the money to pay for it will come from. I may have missed something, which happens quite often in my case, so I am hoping you can help me out and help me to understand where the $825 billion dollars will come from.</blockquote>
You need to chillax ... this was just a funny piece I heard on NPR that I felt like sharing. It ties in nicely the more dubious aspects of the stimulus plan and how they will help our GDP.
<em>Where</em> will this money come from? We might as well look at the end of a rainbow for that one ...</blockquote>
Try your bank account, wallet, under your mattress, etc. What awgee is implying is that we are making this $825 Billion up out of thin air and expecting future tax payers to pay it back in the form of the yield and principle of Treasuries. Borrow now, spend now, pay later. Sound fiscal planning brought to you by a Democrat-controlled government.</blockquote>
Better to spend it here than more Infrastructure in Iraq ?
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.</blockquote>
Isn't that the two wrongs make a right argument?
irvine123_IHB
New member
Blt, GW screwed up in Iraq, spilled milk. The election is over, so let's don't talk about what GW did or didn't do.
How about help me to understand this: If Obama is suppose to be about change, where is the "change" in this bill with 'fully loaded crap"?
How about help me to understand this: If Obama is suppose to be about change, where is the "change" in this bill with 'fully loaded crap"?
O
Oscar_IHB
Guest
[quote author="bltserv" date=1233219980]Better to spend it here than more Infrastructure in Iraq ?
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.</blockquote>
Hey, time to grow up. Bush is gone. The Democrats control everything and tossing up the mistakes of Bush doesn't excuse the additional mistakes being made RIGHT NOW! Your typical retort of "so, look what he did" as some kind of justification for further stupidity is getting tiresome. Either defend the Obama plan on it's merits or get on board the new hate train.
We spent that much on our little spreading of Democracy experiment.
Thanks GW.</blockquote>
Hey, time to grow up. Bush is gone. The Democrats control everything and tossing up the mistakes of Bush doesn't excuse the additional mistakes being made RIGHT NOW! Your typical retort of "so, look what he did" as some kind of justification for further stupidity is getting tiresome. Either defend the Obama plan on it's merits or get on board the new hate train.
awgee,
All of the money to be used in the stimulus will have to be borrowed, via the issuance of Treasury notes. Some will be issued through normal auctions. However, the government wants to keep interest rates down, borrowing the entire sum via these auctions may cause the interest rates to rise. As a result, the FOMC voted today to allow the Fed to "monetize" purchases of Treasury notes. Where will the Fed get this kind of money? That's where the term "monetize" comes in - they wil print it (or more accurately, just create it electronically).
This is the part that really bears scrutiny. Most analysts are now becoming highly sceptical of the efficacy of <em><strong>this</strong></em> stimulous plan, based on what the spending is for, and when it will be spent (for example, whatever you may think about reimbursements for childcare, thay are not stimulative). Later this year, and next year as well, there are likely to be more stimulous plans. There is a very real likelyhood that the Fed will "monetize" 2 to 3 trillion dollars over the next three years. That would mean in influx of additional currency equal to about 15 to 20 percent of GDP. That is a big number, and once we bottom, the fed will have to take it back out (otherwise we are on the road to Zimbabwe).
It is the getting it out that will be painful. Also, we will have to start paying for this debt, which will probably result in a hefty tax increase, that comes about the same time that the Fed starts jacking interest rates.
All of the money to be used in the stimulus will have to be borrowed, via the issuance of Treasury notes. Some will be issued through normal auctions. However, the government wants to keep interest rates down, borrowing the entire sum via these auctions may cause the interest rates to rise. As a result, the FOMC voted today to allow the Fed to "monetize" purchases of Treasury notes. Where will the Fed get this kind of money? That's where the term "monetize" comes in - they wil print it (or more accurately, just create it electronically).
This is the part that really bears scrutiny. Most analysts are now becoming highly sceptical of the efficacy of <em><strong>this</strong></em> stimulous plan, based on what the spending is for, and when it will be spent (for example, whatever you may think about reimbursements for childcare, thay are not stimulative). Later this year, and next year as well, there are likely to be more stimulous plans. There is a very real likelyhood that the Fed will "monetize" 2 to 3 trillion dollars over the next three years. That would mean in influx of additional currency equal to about 15 to 20 percent of GDP. That is a big number, and once we bottom, the fed will have to take it back out (otherwise we are on the road to Zimbabwe).
It is the getting it out that will be painful. Also, we will have to start paying for this debt, which will probably result in a hefty tax increase, that comes about the same time that the Fed starts jacking interest rates.