Irvine Builders: Good or Bad?

After seeing discussion on the quality of certain builders, I have decided to form a poll to see TI members' preferences toward certain builders and why. Certain builders had mostly good (or in the case of KB, bad) neighborhoods, so I had to really pick on certain details to separate them from each other. I know that I did not include many builders, but I think 21 is enough. Thanks. 

P.S. If you have 2nd, 3rd, or etc. best builders on your mind, feel free to put them in as a response. All answers are desired. If you have a REALLY bad builder on your mind, make sure to respond.

y

Both. A builder is responsible for both of them, but they have no choice over given lot sizes and/or sometimes location.

Better to ask which builder one has bought and his/her ratings. Can't really answer cuz I never bought 20 of these builders. Kinda mediocre for IP but I think it's better than my friend's Van Daele home (not on the list).

I don't understand the poll.  Since most/all ppl will have lived in just one, maybe two of the homes built by different builders, are you just asking for reputation vs 1st hand experience. 

Best:  Based on word of mouth, personal experience and/or the intrawebz, it seems like TNHC and Toll Bros lead the pack in terms of design and construction QA. 

Worst:  KB.  Is there even an argument here?  While TIC gets a (deserving so) bad rap about recycling floor plans and dense plotting for maximum profit, I don't think I've heard too much about poor quality.

Disclaimer:  I am not familiar with every single builder in the poll.

Mendocino and many new Irvine Pacific homes in Orchard Hill are sub-contracted out to be build by The New Home Company.  In these cases and if the quality is sub par, do we consider IP is a bad builder or TNHC is a bad builder?

they are all shitty builders. if you guys really think the the new home company and toll bros are significantly better than KB, i have a bridge to sell you.  ive been to various Toll bros developments and there is shitty quality even in their models. once the perceptions are made they are hard to break. so Toll bros will always be the best builder and KB will always be the worst. 

Go ask your floor contractor which builder doesn't have floor leverage problem
You will find out they are same

Just like Samsung and vizio TV
They all use same main board

[quote author=qwerty link=topic=11920.msg235410#msg235410 date=14u

WTTCMN said:

qwerty said:

they are all shitty builders. if you guys really think the the new home company and toll bros are significantly better than KB, i have a bridge to sell you.  ive been to various Toll bros developments and there is shitty quality even in their models. once the perceptions are made they are hard to break. so Toll bros will always be the best builder and KB will always be the worst. 

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Haha. +1. That's why a quality builder to me is one who is willing to fix any shittiness.  Some are better than others in this regard.

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yeah that is actually a better way to determine the best builder.  Irvine company is a shitty builder and then give you shit about fixing stuff, that would put them at the bottom of the list.

My builder isn't on the list - they definitely didn't build a perfect house (not everything is straight / lines up perfectly). Part of the design on homes is to give the contracts some leeway (orange peel walls hide imperfections for instance). When picking a builder I'd say that customer service / attitude of the management (which trickles down to the sales staff / service staff) is very important.

qwerty said:

they are all shitty builders. if you guys really think the the new home company and toll bros are significantly better than KB, i have a bridge to sell you.  ive been to various Toll bros developments and there is shitty quality even in their models. once the perceptions are made they are hard to break. so Toll bros will always be the best builder and KB will always be the worst.

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Agreed. Customer service and follow up are key to a builder's rep. I just know, personally, I still wouldn't take my chances with KB... lol

I would probably put Tolls and New Homes at the top and with most in the middle.  I think builders are more about sales now than building. They farm out their work to subcontractors who in turn hire mostly day laborers.  Builders factor in post-construction repair and legal costs into their profit analysis...some take more risk than others.

I think whether you get a good or bad house is somewhat random. 

I've actually had a good experience with Lennar thus far.  Their guys will come by to fix the small things and they have a nice ticket system online that I can send in requests for. 

Like most have said.. these guys just subcontract out. It's all about standing behind their work afterwards. 

I totally agree. Since everything is subcontracted, can't really blame it all on the builder.

It's sad how KB got its bad rep. Our experience with them has been really good. Despite all the negative reviews, we took a chance with them. We watched every step of the construction process with eagle eyes, hired an inspector just to double check (and for GH's peace of mind) and so far they did a good job. Whatever the inspector found were all minor issues, which KB fixed either the same day or the next day (pre drywall and final walk through). I did research, talked to owners from other KB built neighborhoods, and so far did not hear any negative responses, so we took the plunge.

I compared my previous experience with John Laing vs. KB (I know, not comparable most would say), but I think it's all about the site superintendent, customer service, and builder staff. With John Laing, they had a reputation of being one of the best builders, their staff were so rigid, you can't make any requests, can't visit the site, can't really question what they do, etc. Every request I tried to make then they said they can't do it, it's not according to plan. With KB, the site superintendent we got was super nice, very accommodating, and had the patience to explain every step of the construction process. When I tried to request something, he did not say can't do it, he said he'll discuss it with his manager and see what they can do. For the most part of it, the really big requests I made, they made it work, and he took full responsibility with it. For something they can't do, he explained why they can't do it and I was ok with it. With John Laing's reputation then, you'd think they built the best quality house, but not necessarily. When they went bankrupt and I had no customer service rep to call, I had to go the handyman route, or Home Depot for replacement parts. I showed the Home Depot guy the replacement part I need and he said they don't sell crap like the one I have in my toilet. I was surprised to hear it since I thought then with John Laing's reputation they supplied best quality. A lot of stuff cracked, broke, came loose, which shouldn't have if they were truly a quality builder.

With KB, I can't say they're the best, but I can't say they're the worst either. They have bad trades and good trades, but at the end of the day, it was our experience with their staff that makes me say they're not as bad as they sound. It all depends on who you get to work with. I think they did a good job with our wood looking tile flooring, our counter tops, bathroom vanities, carpet, etc. I took a picture of all the materials they used for the house, from drywall to insulation to the waterproofing sheets, grout, tile, etc and read reviews about them individually. They were not really cheap. But, they picked the wrong cabinet maker as that job was lousy. I complained about it, they did get it fixed, but so far that's my only complaint in terms of quality. Really cheap cabinets and an even lousier install. I was told that at Vicenza, they changed cabinet makers and apparently they are way better.

It's really about who they pick as their trades, and most of all, who you have to work with and deal with afterwards.

Mass production builders anywhere are all the same....quality is poor....houses are all carton boxes no matter if you buy orchard hills or any other place.

I personally went and asked to a few of those builders to show me how they build their houses...from foundation to floor structure etc.....oh boy...everything is misaligned somehow from half a inch to one inch. Foundation are extremely shallows and the rebars are almost non-existent. Slabs are pretty thin too even when the soil looks pretty clayish. I hope they do some grading...they say yes...but they say yes to a lot of stuff.


If you want  a good house you need a custom builder, an architect and a lot of time to spend in being the general contractor hiring and supervising the various companies that will perform the job.

And it will be bloody expensive......easy >1M$ for a 2500 sq/f house excluding the land. And this with you being the general contractor.

And...it will take anywhere between 9 months to a year to build...slightly more than the 2 to 4 weeks for the carton box.

If you do not have the money....well any carton box to me looks the same...so I'll go for the cheapest one.

snake said:

Foundation are extremely shallows and the rebars are almost non-existent.

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Rebars?  Foundations have been made from post tension concrete since forever. 

It is done with post tension concrete because it is cheaper. Since forever? I am not sure about that.  They started using it extensively since 1999 and started in the 80s I guess.

The 8'' max slab that they use will crack if the clay swells.

Just to give you an idea I report something you can easily find on the inet

"The reinforcement is provided by either embedding steel rebar (reinforcement bar) or using tensioned steel cables. In theory, both methods should yield acceptable results. In practice, however, a post tension foundation is much more susceptible to human errors that can occur during the construction process.

Reinforcement with Post Tension Cables
In the case of a post tension slab, steel cables are laid out in grid fashion inside the forms. The foundation gains tensile strength when the cables are tightened after the slab has been cast. The tricky part comes when concrete is poured into the forms. Great care must be taken to ensure the cables remain perfectly straight during the pour. Unfortunately, concrete is extremely heavy, and can easily displace the cables as it shoots into the forms. If the cables are shifted from their designed position, they won?t perform the way they were supposed to. In fact, the tensioning (tightening) process can actually weaken the concrete if a cable is misaligned.
Reinforcement with Steel Rebar
The more conservative/fail proof approach is to set engineered steel rebar inside the forms. With rebar, there?s nothing to tighten. Steel rebar doesn?t move the way cables can when concrete is poured into the forms. In other words, a rebar foundation is inherently more forgiving of the typical conditions experienced at a construction site."


Basically post tension is the sloppy concrete but they make you believing it is the same as rebars. Reality is the weight of the cement will bend the cables and your "reinforcement" will be a sloppy one.

Of course rebars are much more expensive but it is the way to do if you want quality. Because making a good post-tensed concrete is very difficult(read very expensive)  in practice.

Moreover if the ducts where the cables are, are not fully filled and I bet 50$ given the speed at which they build they are not,  the rust can corrode the cable. It is a very well known problem which caused bridges to collapse in Europe.

Ynys-y-Gwas bridge in West Glamorgan, Wales being one of the examples. I will always opt for the regular rebars because it is easier to assure a better quality control and it is more insensitive to human errors.

test said:

snake said:

Foundation are extremely shallows and the rebars are almost non-existent.

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Rebars?  Foundations have been made from post tension concrete since forever.

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And by the way at least Toll brothers use the rebars for the footing  and the tendons have a much thicker plastic around them. Other builders looked to me having and using a much sloppier tendon.


And in this video you can see what happens if even a single tendon fails.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kF4dXkPfJE


and a new KB home in which post tense cable failed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKaVoU2HtVQ

So who uses rebar to build homes again?

BTW, if you read the comments in that video:

KB Home Problems 4 months ago
KB Home led us to believe we were going to get a post tension slab but did say in the contract they were waiting for approval and may change to a conventional slab and foundation design. Our neighbor also thought these were post tension slabs but there's no warning stamp in the garage and there's felt between the foundation and slab in the garage so it's a conventional slab.?