Save the Memorial Park! Vote No on Measure B ballot June 5th

i1 said:
someguy said:
If the "Yes" votes out there had any idea how much developer money is behind this ballot measure I wonder if they would second guess their "yes" vote.  I couldn't be the only one who received literally dozens of "Yes on B" mailers and repeated "Yes on B" Facebook ads...  Have you noticed the multiple "Yes on B" banners with professionally shot pictures around the great park?  You all think that stuff is free?  But what's the point... people have made up their mind and seem to only point to data that supports their conclusions.
I can see some solid benefits to having the cemetery at the original location by Portola HS. However, are you assuming that anything that is good for a developer must absolutely be bad for the city and residents? It seems like that, which imo is a poor way to make a voting judgement.

Not that I think we have a good city council (or else we wouldn?t have bastardized sfrs in half the city), but their job is to find win-win deals with developers

We have some good city council members.  Their job is to serve the interests of their constituents, not find win-win deals with developers.  The majority of Irvine citizens were very happy to hear the ARDA space was going to be used for a Veteran Cemetery.  The city was going (technically had requested appropriations that were likely to be granted) to receive $30 million dollars from the fed & state government to go towards the cemetery.  But after years of planning the city council voted non-unanimously (look it up to find out which council members are in the developer's pockets) at the last minute to swap the cemetery location, thus nullifying the appropriation request.  Ask why.  Why would they suddenly do that?  Because of all of the citizens protesting over the ARDA location?  Because citizens wanted 812,000 sqft of commercial space at the ARDA location?  Yah, I remember all those protests too... /s  I'll help you out.  It's because the developers were afraid their easy FCB money would dry up if a cemetery was so close to their great park developments, so they lobbied the hell out of the city for the land swap.  Then people did get pissed, they actually did protest at city hall.  The city council couldn't overturn their decision, but the best they could do was put it on the ballot.  Thus, measure B was born. 

Speaking of shady politics, have you looked at measure D?  A yes vote guarantees that citizens can't interfere with a revenue stream.  What?  How did that measure get on there?  Who does that benefit?  It's sickening how bent over some of the city councilmen are for the developers.
 
Measure D was Mayor Wagner?s big FU to those who supported Irvine for Responsible Growth. He wants to crush any future voter initiatives to curb Irvine development.
 
Regardless of my affiliation to the developer. I would voice my opinion for what is the right thing to do.

The number of homes to be built at the Greatpark has already been entitled and approved. Not a single more unit would be allowed regardless of the cemetery locations. The only difference here is the cemetery will drive away Chinese buyers thus lowering surrounding property value.

This means the other developer has everything to gain when Chinese buyers must buy homes outside of the Greatpark. Either way the outcome would benefit one of the two developers. The original cemetery site is not zoned to housing and has no tremendous revenue potential. 820,000 sf of Business park will be similar to what we have already seen along Bake pkwy.

A rule of thumb for good commercial land is signage and traffic exposure and that should debunk the theory that the original cemetery site is so valuable that 5P will be exploiting it and build something on it that will exceed the potential of the El Toro Y site.

A No vote does not mean less homes will be built. It will only affects property value of the homes but the physical environment will still be the same. There will be a large Commercial Center by the Y with excellent exposure. The developer will make more money there to offset the loss of home revenue.

A yes vote means the same number of homes will be built and the property value will be the same as the rest of Irvine. The High school and near by homes will not hear gun salute on a regular basis. There will not be long procession of funeral caravans through the residential neighborhoods. I am not thrilled about a business park in between the high school and homes. However I am thrilled to see a veteran cemetery at the location that reminds the millions of drivers who commute everyday or out of towners driving to San Diego that the braves who fought for this country.

When I drive by the 405 I have always loved the scenery of the Westwood Veteran Cemetery although I don't know of anyone buried there but I respect the majesty of it. I was very disappointed when Cal Tran added the extra lanes that a retaining wall was necessary. I longer could see the cemetery from the freeway. Veteran cemetery is not just for the relatives but for all to see. I would not go out of my way to get to it just like many others. However for that moment when driving by I acknowledged the sacrifices and bravery of the veterans. When I drove from DC to Alexandria the Arlington cemetery being adjacent to the highway granted the setback is greater there but its adjacency signified that I was driving by an area that signified a great deal of respect.

When a cemetery is hidden in a residential neighborhood a majority of the public will never see it or hear about it. I do support a public monument must be at a high profile location.

We see freeway adjacent as negative but I hope to illustrate to you a large acreage 3x the size of Spectrum the design possibility is endless. This is a veteran cemetery that edged on 2 highways. Please look at the beauty of it when properly landscaped with trees.https://www.cavehillcemetery.com/


The assumption is the developer is greedy and that original cemetery land is a gold mine. 820,000 sf of business park is no gold mine. The potential of a transit oriented mixed use development at the El Toro Y is a money maker when leased out to national tenants. The issue is tranquility vs freeway adjacency. I feel it should be acknowledged by the world while relatives want a secluded serene setting.

I believe the high profile location could be made peaceful by good design. Look at Woodbridge South Lake. It backs up to the 405 but its a peaceful once inside. The proposed swap site has a depth from a range similar the depth from 405 to Barranca and 405 to Alton. When you walk or drive on Barranca or Alton by Woodbridge Lake do you not find them peaceful?

My vote is Yes on B
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
Regardless of my affiliation to the developer. I would voice my opinion for what is the right thing to do.

The number of homes to be built at the Greatpark has already been entitled and approved. Not a single more unit would be allowed regardless of the cemetery locations. The only difference here is the cemetery will drive away Chinese buyers thus lowering surrounding property value.

This means the other developer has everything to gain when Chinese buyers must buy homes outside of the Greatpark. Either way the outcome would benefit one of the two developers. The original cemetery site is not zoned to housing and has no tremendous revenue potential. 820,000 sf of Business park will be similar to what we have already seen along Bake pkwy.

A rule of thumb for good commercial land is signage and traffic exposure and that should debunk the theory that the original cemetery site is so valuable that 5P will be exploiting it and build something on it that will exceed the potential of the El Toro Y site.

A No vote does not mean less homes will be built. It will only affects property value of the homes but the physical environment will still be the same. There will be a large Commercial Center by the Y with excellent exposure. The developer will make more money there to offset the loss of home revenue.

A yes vote means the same number of homes will be built and the property value will be the same as the rest of Irvine. The High school and near by homes will not hear gun salute on a regular basis. There will not be long procession of funeral caravans through the residential neighborhoods. I am not thrilled about a business park in between the high school and homes. However I am thrilled to see a veteran cemetery at the location that reminds the millions of drivers who commute everyday or out of towners driving to San Diego that the braves who fought for this country.

When I drive by the 405 I have always loved the scenery of the Westwood Veteran Cemetery although I don't know of anyone buried there but I respect the majesty of it. I was very disappointed when Cal Tran added the extra lanes that a retaining wall was necessary. I longer could see the cemetery from the freeway. Veteran cemetery is not just for the relatives but for all to see. I would not go out of my way to get to it just like many others. However for that moment when driving by I acknowledged the sacrifices and bravery of the veterans. When I drove from DC to Alexandria the Arlington cemetery being adjacent to the highway granted the setback is greater there but its adjacency signified that I was driving by an area that signified a great deal of respect.

When a cemetery is hidden in a residential neighborhood a majority of the public will never see it or hear about it. I do support a public monument must be at a high profile location.

We see freeway adjacent as negative but I hope to illustrate to you a large acreage 3x the size of Spectrum the design possibility is endless. This is a veteran cemetery that edged on 2 highways. Please look at the beauty of it when properly landscaped with trees.https://www.cavehillcemetery.com/

My vote is Yes on B
Mailed my ballot that marks Yes on B this morning.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
Regardless of my affiliation to the developer. I would voice my opinion for what is the right thing to do.

The number of homes to be built at the Greatpark has already been entitled and approved. Not a single more unit would be allowed regardless of the cemetery locations. The only difference here is the cemetery will drive away Chinese buyers thus lowering surrounding property value.

This means the other developer has everything to gain when Chinese buyers must buy homes outside of the Greatpark. Either way the outcome would benefit one of the two developers. The original cemetery site is not zoned to housing and has no tremendous revenue potential. 820,000 sf of Business park will be similar to what we have already seen along Bake pkwy.

A rule of thumb for good commercial land is signage and traffic exposure and that should debunk the theory that the original cemetery site is so valuable that 5P will be exploiting it and build something on it that will exceed the potential of the El Toro Y site.

A No vote does not mean less homes will be built. It will only affects property value of the homes but the physical environment will still be the same. There will be a large Commercial Center by the Y with excellent exposure. The developer will make more money there to offset the loss of home revenue.

A yes vote means the same number of homes will be built and the property value will be the same as the rest of Irvine. The High school and near by homes will not hear gun salute on a regular basis. There will not be long procession of funeral caravans through the residential neighborhoods. I am not thrilled about a business park in between the high school and homes. However I am thrilled to see a veteran cemetery at the location that reminds the millions of drivers who commute everyday or out of towners driving to San Diego that the braves who fought for this country.

When I drive by the 405 I have always loved the scenery of the Westwood Veteran Cemetery although I don't know of anyone buried there but I respect the majesty of it. I was very disappointed when Cal Tran added the extra lanes that a retaining wall was necessary. I longer could see the cemetery from the freeway. Veteran cemetery is not just for the relatives but for all to see. I would not go out of my way to get to it just like many others. However for that moment when driving by I acknowledged the sacrifices and bravery of the veterans. When I drove from DC to Alexandria the Arlington cemetery being adjacent to the highway granted the setback is greater there but its adjacency signified that I was driving by an area that signified a great deal of respect.

When a cemetery is hidden in a residential neighborhood a majority of the public will never see it or hear about it. I do support a public monument must be at a high profile location.

We see freeway adjacent as negative but I hope to illustrate to you a large acreage 3x the size of Spectrum the design possibility is endless. This is a veteran cemetery that edged on 2 highways. Please look at the beauty of it when properly landscaped with trees.https://www.cavehillcemetery.com/


The assumption is the developer is greedy and that original cemetery land is a gold mine. 820,000 sf of business park is no gold mine. The potential of a transit oriented mixed use development at the El Toro Y is a money maker when leased out to national tenants. The issue is tranquility vs freeway adjacency. I feel it should be acknowledged by the world while relatives want a secluded serene setting.

I believe the high profile location could be made peaceful by good design. Look at Woodbridge South Lake. It backs up to the 405 but its a peaceful once inside. The proposed swap site has a depth from a range similar the depth from 405 to Barranca and 405 to Alton. When you walk or drive on Barranca or Alton by Woodbridge Lake do you not find them peaceful?

My vote is Yes on B
sigh.  What's the point. 

Why bother trying yet again to explain that it's stupid to put 812,000 of office space next to the school instead of next to the 5/405 interchange where it's extremely accessible. 

Why bother trying to explain that those employees' commutes will continue into the GP instead of ending at the 5/405. 

Why bother trying to explain the corrupt process by which measure B was born. 

Why bother trying to explain that money is being used to push an agenda to voters. 

Why bother pointing out that the narrative of "yes" is using Veterans and supporters as pawns for the agenda of 5P.

You want something pretty?  Go explore nature.

You want to honor the veterans?  Go volunteer for them.  Go spend time with the sick/needy veterans and those they left behind.  Don't act like you're going to well up with tears of gratitude every time you pass a cemetery on the freeway.  Don't act like that's making a single ounce of difference in any of those soldier's or their family's lives.  You want to show the Veterans something real?  Show them the country they died for cannot be bought.  Honor their sacrifice by saying No to corrupt political processes.  Give them an opportunity to be buried and remembered next to their living fellow citizens at the Great Park.
 
iacrenter said:
Measure D was Mayor Wagner?s big FU to those who supported Irvine for Responsible Growth. He wants to crush any future voter initiatives to curb Irvine development.

Dropped my family's ballots in the mail yesterday.

My votes:
Yes on B
Yes on C
No on D

An elderly family member told me he voted no on B because he doesn't think cemeteries should be near homes.  sigh..
 
Everyone cares about the property value including non-chinese. Who wants to get stuck with a property that will not resale well. Everyone is assuming the next buyer will be likely Chinese. By then Portola will knock University off the helm and buyers betting on homes surrounding the school would appreciate like Turtle Rock.

Belly for example would want to see the cemetery get built because that would make his home in Eastwood more desirable by eliminating resale competition east of the toll road.

I strongly believe by textbook planning standard that a large monumental cemetery should be near the expressway while a smaller neighborhood cemetery could be allowed in residential zone.
 
irvinehomeshopper said:
Everyone is assuming the next buyer will be likely Chinese.

Who else is willing to pay these prices?  We did the math, even $250k household income is shakey in Irvine.  Think about that.  1/4 million dollars annual income has trouble affording a 2,500 new barely single family home cracker box 5ft yard setback in Irvine.  That's weird.  This weird stuff isn't just Irvine, it's happening all over the US west coast.  I don't think this ends well for the average US worker or middle-class'er.  But I'm getting off topic. 

You're free to vote however you want.  Me too.  And our good man BTB too.  That's part of the beauty of America.  I just... you know...  kinda want to share this America with people who remember and respect that...
 
someguy said:
Who else is willing to pay these prices?  We did the math, even $250k household income is shaky in Irvine.  Think about that.  1/4 million dollars annual income has trouble affording a 2,500 new barely single family home cracker box 5ft yard setback in Irvine.  That's weird.  This weird stuff isn't just Irvine, it's happening all over the US west coast.  I don't think this ends well for the average US worker.  But I'm getting off topic. 

Agreed that we would be better off adding huge taxes to FCB purchases like Vancouver did to keep prices down. I didn't vote Yes to B to maintain property values.

Income is not the most relevant thing when it comes to purchasing homes - wealth is a lot more relevant. Other than stock options, it's a lot harder to build wealth from nothing than to achieve a high income.

But for those that have family wealth or stock options, west coast housing prices are not a problem.
 
someguy said:
irvinehomeshopper said:
Regardless of my affiliation to the developer. I would voice my opinion for what is the right thing to do.

The number of homes to be built at the Greatpark has already been entitled and approved. Not a single more unit would be allowed regardless of the cemetery locations. The only difference here is the cemetery will drive away Chinese buyers thus lowering surrounding property value.

This means the other developer has everything to gain when Chinese buyers must buy homes outside of the Greatpark. Either way the outcome would benefit one of the two developers. The original cemetery site is not zoned to housing and has no tremendous revenue potential. 820,000 sf of Business park will be similar to what we have already seen along Bake pkwy.

A rule of thumb for good commercial land is signage and traffic exposure and that should debunk the theory that the original cemetery site is so valuable that 5P will be exploiting it and build something on it that will exceed the potential of the El Toro Y site.

A No vote does not mean less homes will be built. It will only affects property value of the homes but the physical environment will still be the same. There will be a large Commercial Center by the Y with excellent exposure. The developer will make more money there to offset the loss of home revenue.

A yes vote means the same number of homes will be built and the property value will be the same as the rest of Irvine. The High school and near by homes will not hear gun salute on a regular basis. There will not be long procession of funeral caravans through the residential neighborhoods. I am not thrilled about a business park in between the high school and homes. However I am thrilled to see a veteran cemetery at the location that reminds the millions of drivers who commute everyday or out of towners driving to San Diego that the braves who fought for this country.

When I drive by the 405 I have always loved the scenery of the Westwood Veteran Cemetery although I don't know of anyone buried there but I respect the majesty of it. I was very disappointed when Cal Tran added the extra lanes that a retaining wall was necessary. I longer could see the cemetery from the freeway. Veteran cemetery is not just for the relatives but for all to see. I would not go out of my way to get to it just like many others. However for that moment when driving by I acknowledged the sacrifices and bravery of the veterans. When I drove from DC to Alexandria the Arlington cemetery being adjacent to the highway granted the setback is greater there but its adjacency signified that I was driving by an area that signified a great deal of respect.

When a cemetery is hidden in a residential neighborhood a majority of the public will never see it or hear about it. I do support a public monument must be at a high profile location.

We see freeway adjacent as negative but I hope to illustrate to you a large acreage 3x the size of Spectrum the design possibility is endless. This is a veteran cemetery that edged on 2 highways. Please look at the beauty of it when properly landscaped with trees.https://www.cavehillcemetery.com/


The assumption is the developer is greedy and that original cemetery land is a gold mine. 820,000 sf of business park is no gold mine. The potential of a transit oriented mixed use development at the El Toro Y is a money maker when leased out to national tenants. The issue is tranquility vs freeway adjacency. I feel it should be acknowledged by the world while relatives want a secluded serene setting.

I believe the high profile location could be made peaceful by good design. Look at Woodbridge South Lake. It backs up to the 405 but its a peaceful once inside. The proposed swap site has a depth from a range similar the depth from 405 to Barranca and 405 to Alton. When you walk or drive on Barranca or Alton by Woodbridge Lake do you not find them peaceful?

My vote is Yes on B
sigh.  What's the point. 

Why bother trying yet again to explain that it's stupid to put 812,000 of office space next to the school instead of next to the 5/405 interchange where it's extremely accessible. 

Why bother trying to explain that those employees' commutes will continue into the GP instead of ending at the 5/405. 

Why bother trying to explain the corrupt process by which measure B was born. 

Why bother trying to explain that money is being used to push an agenda to voters. 

Why bother pointing out that the narrative of "yes" is using Veterans and supporters as pawns for the agenda of 5P.

You want something pretty?  Go explore nature.

You want to honor the veterans?  Go volunteer for them.  Go spend time with the sick/needy veterans and those they left behind.  Don't act like you're going to well up with tears of gratitude every time you pass a cemetery on the freeway.  Don't act like that's making a single ounce of difference in any of those soldier's or their family's lives.  You want to show the Veterans something real?  Show them the country they died for cannot be bought.  Honor their sacrifice by saying No to corrupt political processes.  Give them an opportunity to be buried and remembered next to their living fellow citizens at the Great Park.

Not everyone is passionate about visiting the grave site. That does not mean people like me don't respect veterans. We have different way of showing our respect. I don't know of any veteran being buried at the cemetery and I really have no reason to visit. I am an immigrant and so are many who are living in Irvine. You have your standard and I have mine coming from a different culture. I appreciate your passion but don't discredit the many of us or others who does just the same. If you want to get your message out don't bury the cemetery where the public can't see or find it.
 
I see 5P's Measure B signs have the slogan: "Real Veterans" vote yes on B. So 5P is now in the business of deciding which veterans are "real." Nice.
 
rickr said:
5P Versus TIC

I think we should just have a fight club - Donald versus Emile

Who wins?

TIC will be in Irvine always, taking care of Irvine like they have for decades. Once 5P sells all of its El Toro land, it will disappear and never be seen again. 5P is owned by Lennar which is located in Florida. TIC is based right here.
 
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