lowlyirvinerenter
New member
Irvinecommuter said:
Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?
God?
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Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?
If you believe in an all powerful God that is not bound by time, a human billion year could just a be a blink of an eye for God. If God is not bound by time, He can compress, expand, travel, move back and forth between time etc, then creation and evolution theory can both be plausible without being contradicting one another.
Morality is absolutely subjective in this country. Gay marriage for example..adultery is another.
Sure...why not? I don't know why God chose to make modern humans in this fashion but he did...it's nothing to Him as he is timeless and omnipotent. But the point is that evolution doesn't trip up God...it's our attempts to understand him that gets tripped up.
I mean, human have spends thousands of years and untold paper/ink/data to explain how human can to be. The Bible does it in two chapters. I mean it would make no sense to anyone living before 20th century to explain the process in any further detail.
http://www.rareuniverse.org/timeline.html
Does the book of Genesis mention specific timelines without giving scales?
Why is it that the concept of creation according to Abrahamic religions considered to be generally acceptable by most people, as opposed to views held by the ancient Greeks or Taoists or Egyptians or Hindus or the Maya or the Aztecs or any of the other civilizations?
Why is the concept of origin of humans as mentioned by Scientology laughed at?
I'm not sure what your first question means. Genesis gives description of what happened in steps...(days). The text of Genesis was a collection of texts and oral histories and thousands of years old. Their understanding of timeline and scale would be much different than ours.
It's generally acceptable because they're the most popular religions. Many of the explanations offered by the Greeks/Egyptians/Mayans have been debunked.
I don't know anything about scientology so I can't speak to that.
In today's age, you are correct that morality can be taught and learned without religion. But when most ancient religions were invented there was no real concept of law. Most religions at their core define values to live by, e.g. the ten commandments. Most religions have the same fundamental teachings / morals. A lot of our modern day laws take into account morals / values based in religion.
Based on your link, time scales for each day are vastly different. One day it is a few billion years, v/s another being just a few million years. This would be not hold out in any scientific publication.
Popular doesn't real equal true. How are the Greek/Egyptians/Mayan belief's debunked?
It's not a scientific treatise. The fact that the description lines up with our scientific understanding of the creation of the universe is pretty darn amazing.
The Bible spends about 2 chapters on the creation of the world and basically doesn't deal with it much thereafter. Again, why would people writing this document 3-4 thousand years ago need to "match up" years with description? We're talking about stages of development...not specific time frames. Scientists breakup the development of the universe, Earth, and life in ages that of different time frame/years.
I can't go through every part for the Greeks for example thought that the sun was carried on a chariot and and driven across the sky every day. They also thought that the world was held up by Atlas and that winter was created because Persephone had to go back to the underworld
Egyptians thought that the world was an endless expanse of water with a flat earth. The sun is basically Ra traveling through the sky and stars are the other deities that Ra spits out at night.
Mayan religion is not as well known and super complicated but basically a lot of deities turning into the sun, moon, the earth, and other things.
Anything can be written to prove after the fact by twisting timeline. This is exactly how psychics "know" everything, putting things generally and letting the person fill in the blanks.
As you very well demonstrate, if you take any scripture / text literally it falls flat on it's head. This eventually applies to any scripture for any religion. Just like you take your interpretation of the Book of Genesis and make it fit just right so that it looks more believable, one can do the same for any text and come up with a reasonable explanation.
So rather than accepting that we have a finite knowledge of things, you just toss away the explanation? Again...the text of Genesis is 4,000 to 5,000 years old...it predicts the origins of the Universe and Earth pretty darn well...that seems pretty lucky. What part of my explanation falls flat? Where do I stretch out any reason or explanation?
Actually, most "psychics" uses suggestive language and coaxing to get information out of the people. That has nothing to do with hindsight knowledge.
Please find any other religious explanation of the origins of the world that would line up with our current understanding of the universe or any scientific fact that we have uncover that contradicts or is contradicted by the Bible.
But in reality, we can talk about this matter for years and never come to a resolution because it's really whether you believe or not. If you don't, you're not going to accept any explanation. If you do, you are willing to accept those explanations. It's not a matter of "right" or "wrong" but just human nature.
Yet, those issues are a small fraction of what it means for me to be a Christian...as Soylent Green has stated, the concept of Christianity is unique in its views on salvation and grace. It does not require the accomplishment of certain tasks or standards. No one is more worthy or have a better chance at salvation than another...it's as equal as it gets.
As I said before, many Christians feel the only way into the good place is belief in Jesus, but for those who don't believe in him but do believe in God (like Jewish and Islamic religions), what happens to them?
because they chose not to be with God. God wants to have a relationship with every human but if s/he chooses not to have that relationship, God is not going to force it. They just end up in a place where God and all his goodness do not exist (i.e. love, compassion, empathy, etc.).
we really need to separate god and religious. reading this post i dont know if god does not allow non-believer or christian does not allow non-believer in the good place.
also a quick question, if hilter is a christian, will he be a in the good place right now?
Well...if you are a Christian, the Bible is the word of God and it clearly separates those would believe in Christ as their savior to those who don't. The former group is saved and will spend eternity with God. The latter does not. I also believe those who never had the opportunity to choose, i.e. mentality handicapped, children, etc, will be saved.
If Hitler truly believed Christ to be his savior, then yes he would be in the "good place". That's because salvation for Christian is not based on works, good or bad. You can't earn your way into salvation, just like you can't earn your way out of it. There is one qualification, whether you truly believe Christ to be your savior.
Of course, just because you call yourself a Christian, doesn't mean you are. The true test is in your heart and between you and God.
Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?
HomeOwner Irvine said:
If you believe in an all powerful God that is not bound by time, a human billion year could just a be a blink of an eye for God. If God is not bound by time, He can compress, expand, travel, move back and forth between time etc, then creation and evolution theory can both be plausible without being contradicting one another.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I don't think morality, at least in the US, is subjective.
Laws and rules define can define what morality is. Morality, in a sense, is encouraged in school.
Morality can be taught and learned without religion, but not sure if you can fully understand morality without a sense of a higher power.
Laws and rules define can define what morality is. Morality, in a sense, is encouraged in school.
Morality can be taught and learned without religion, but not sure if you can fully understand morality without a sense of a higher power.
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
Morality is absolutely subjective in this country. Gay marriage for example..adultery is another.
Irvinecommuter
New member
HomeOwner Irvine said:
Sure...why not? I don't know why God chose to make modern humans in this fashion but he did...it's nothing to Him as he is timeless and omnipotent. But the point is that evolution doesn't trip up God...it's our attempts to understand him that gets tripped up.
I mean, human have spends thousands of years and untold paper/ink/data to explain how human can to be. The Bible does it in two chapters. I mean it would make no sense to anyone living before 20th century to explain the process in any further detail.
http://www.rareuniverse.org/timeline.html
lowlyirvinerenter
New member
GH said:
Does the book of Genesis mention specific timelines without giving scales?
Why is it that the concept of creation according to Abrahamic religions considered to be generally acceptable by most people, as opposed to views held by the ancient Greeks or Taoists or Egyptians or Hindus or the Maya or the Aztecs or any of the other civilizations?
Why is the concept of origin of humans as mentioned by Scientology laughed at?
Irvinecommuter
New member
HomeOwner Irvine said:
I'm not sure what your first question means. Genesis gives description of what happened in steps...(days). The text of Genesis was a collection of texts and oral histories and thousands of years old. Their understanding of timeline and scale would be much different than ours.
It's generally acceptable because they're the most popular religions. Many of the explanations offered by the Greeks/Egyptians/Mayans have been debunked.
I don't know anything about scientology so I can't speak to that.
lowlyirvinerenter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
In today's age, you are correct that morality can be taught and learned without religion. But when most ancient religions were invented there was no real concept of law. Most religions at their core define values to live by, e.g. the ten commandments. Most religions have the same fundamental teachings / morals. A lot of our modern day laws take into account morals / values based in religion.
lowlyirvinerenter
New member
Irvinecommuter said:
Based on your link, time scales for each day are vastly different. One day it is a few billion years, v/s another being just a few million years. This would be not hold out in any scientific publication.
Popular doesn't real equal true. How are the Greek/Egyptians/Mayan belief's debunked?
Irvinecommuter
New member
HomeOwner Irvine said:
It's not a scientific treatise. The fact that the description lines up with our scientific understanding of the creation of the universe is pretty darn amazing.
The Bible spends about 2 chapters on the creation of the world and basically doesn't deal with it much thereafter. Again, why would people writing this document 3-4 thousand years ago need to "match up" years with description? We're talking about stages of development...not specific time frames. Scientists breakup the development of the universe, Earth, and life in ages that of different time frame/years.
I can't go through every part for the Greeks for example thought that the sun was carried on a chariot and and driven across the sky every day. They also thought that the world was held up by Atlas and that winter was created because Persephone had to go back to the underworld
Egyptians thought that the world was an endless expanse of water with a flat earth. The sun is basically Ra traveling through the sky and stars are the other deities that Ra spits out at night.
Mayan religion is not as well known and super complicated but basically a lot of deities turning into the sun, moon, the earth, and other things.
sgip
Well-known member
Every belief system has their origin story. The non-religious have theirs as do the religious. Here's one thing that struck me as a reasonable proof for creation a few months ago:
From Genesis 1:2-3 (NASB)
"The Earth was formless and void, and the darkeness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said "Let there be light" and there was light."
This used to get plenty of laughs - "How can there be water and no sun!" Then this came along in September:
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-old-water-on-earth-20140923-story.html
So all in all, for a Bronze Age shepherd to go and invent this creation story out of thin air as some think Moses did, he seems to be getting fairly accurate to what science is finally able to confirm day by day.
From Genesis 1:2-3 (NASB)
"The Earth was formless and void, and the darkeness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said "Let there be light" and there was light."
This used to get plenty of laughs - "How can there be water and no sun!" Then this came along in September:
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-old-water-on-earth-20140923-story.html
So all in all, for a Bronze Age shepherd to go and invent this creation story out of thin air as some think Moses did, he seems to be getting fairly accurate to what science is finally able to confirm day by day.
lowlyirvinerenter
New member
Irvinecommuter said:
Anything can be written to prove after the fact by twisting timeline. This is exactly how psychics "know" everything, putting things generally and letting the person fill in the blanks.
As you very well demonstrate, if you take any scripture / text literally it falls flat on it's head. This eventually applies to any scripture for any religion. Just like you take your interpretation of the Book of Genesis and make it fit just right so that it looks more believable, one can do the same for any text and come up with a reasonable explanation.
Irvinecommuter
New member
HomeOwner Irvine said:
So rather than accepting that we have a finite knowledge of things, you just toss away the explanation? Again...the text of Genesis is 4,000 to 5,000 years old...it predicts the origins of the Universe and Earth pretty darn well...that seems pretty lucky. What part of my explanation falls flat? Where do I stretch out any reason or explanation?
Actually, most "psychics" uses suggestive language and coaxing to get information out of the people. That has nothing to do with hindsight knowledge.
Please find any other religious explanation of the origins of the world that would line up with our current understanding of the universe or any scientific fact that we have uncover that contradicts or is contradicted by the Bible.
But in reality, we can talk about this matter for years and never come to a resolution because it's really whether you believe or not. If you don't, you're not going to accept any explanation. If you do, you are willing to accept those explanations. It's not a matter of "right" or "wrong" but just human nature.
Yet, those issues are a small fraction of what it means for me to be a Christian...as Soylent Green has stated, the concept of Christianity is unique in its views on salvation and grace. It does not require the accomplishment of certain tasks or standards. No one is more worthy or have a better chance at salvation than another...it's as equal as it gets.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I don't think I said God would send them there, my question was would he allow them to end up there if they chose to worship the "wrong" God?Soylent Green Is People said:
As I said before, many Christians feel the only way into the good place is belief in Jesus, but for those who don't believe in him but do believe in God (like Jewish and Islamic religions), what happens to them?
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
because they chose not to be with God. God wants to have a relationship with every human but if s/he chooses not to have that relationship, God is not going to force it. They just end up in a place where God and all his goodness do not exist (i.e. love, compassion, empathy, etc.).
Irvinecommuter said:
we really need to separate god and religious. reading this post i dont know if god does not allow non-believer or christian does not allow non-believer in the good place.
also a quick question, if hilter is a christian, will he be a in the good place right now?
Irvinecommuter
New member
yaliu07 said:
Well...if you are a Christian, the Bible is the word of God and it clearly separates those would believe in Christ as their savior to those who don't. The former group is saved and will spend eternity with God. The latter does not. I also believe those who never had the opportunity to choose, i.e. mentality handicapped, children, etc, will be saved.
If Hitler truly believed Christ to be his savior, then yes he would be in the "good place". That's because salvation for Christian is not based on works, good or bad. You can't earn your way into salvation, just like you can't earn your way out of it. There is one qualification, whether you truly believe Christ to be your savior.
Of course, just because you call yourself a Christian, doesn't mean you are. The true test is in your heart and between you and God.
My two cents:
I believe in an all-knowing God that knows our thought and heart to the last details. Thus, with regards to what is going to happen to me in the afterlife, it is between God and me. With that being said, I would not dare to judge what will happen to others (even the professed Christians) because only God knows their heart. I also believe in a just and merciful God (way beyond our own standard of mercy and justice) so I would not worry about the "others or exceptions" as I believe God will not treat them unjustly in the afterlife for God knows their true heart and intents.
So I guess the more important question (rather than the what if scenarios) is: are you truly at peace with God deep within knowing God knows everything ? You cannot hedge your bet with God nor can you try to argue your way out and hope to win against God.
I believe in an all-knowing God that knows our thought and heart to the last details. Thus, with regards to what is going to happen to me in the afterlife, it is between God and me. With that being said, I would not dare to judge what will happen to others (even the professed Christians) because only God knows their heart. I also believe in a just and merciful God (way beyond our own standard of mercy and justice) so I would not worry about the "others or exceptions" as I believe God will not treat them unjustly in the afterlife for God knows their true heart and intents.
So I guess the more important question (rather than the what if scenarios) is: are you truly at peace with God deep within knowing God knows everything ? You cannot hedge your bet with God nor can you try to argue your way out and hope to win against God.
sgip
Well-known member
All people are through human means unable to meet a perfect God's standard. For seekers, there is a guide for people wanting to understand what this life and the next is all about. It's possible to look at all religious faiths on a comparative basis, but at some point, choice and commitment have to be made.
The God I serve is described in the pages of the Bible. It's a sweeping collection of 42 unique books - some historical (Kings, Chronicles), some poetic (Psalms), prophetic (Isaiah), and personal (Pauls letters to the church), written by 40 authors over centuries of time all telling the same linear story. It's also deeply mysterious and in some situations unknowable, but that's to be expected. If I had to learn about computer programming, it would take a lifetime of reading plus hands on experience and I still wouldn't know as much as I should. I would at some point in time I'd have to trust that the computer I sit in front of, something I don't fully understand, still will operate as expected - that is the "faith" component that we have to accept no matter if it's a computer, a car, or which way to honor God.
Jesus isn't "a way" to God. That's not what he claimed to be. He said he was "the way" - John 14:6, and other passages describe the unique claims of Christ. It's a confrontational statement. Is this Christ someone who is a lunatic, a liar, or who he claims to be - the Lord? Every seeker needs to sort out if they accept this statement or not. There are great "non-biblical" resources that help answer some of the questions people rightly have about a Christian world view. One of my favorite recommendations is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel#The_Case_for_Christ
For those people who decide not to follow Christ, there is only one way at the end of our life on earth - eternal separation from God. What form that separation will take is not as clear as it may seem. Hell, lakes of fire, brimstone etc are for the most part described as punishment for Satan and his angels. It may well be for man. I confess that I don't know for certain what the fate of man will be, but what I am certain about is the next life is one eternally separated from a loving God based on decisions I freely and knowingly made in this life.
There's the "what about the eskimo's or aboriginal people who never knew the Christ you're preaching" argument. My God is a God of mercy. What understanding of God peoples have found through revelation and personal experience is a matter for God to settle with those people. The question then turns to those who have heard, who have looked, who have earnestly sought answers and decided to reject the message God has provided? A God of love provides men with a free will and won't force someone to continue on with Him.
Thanks for reading,
SGIP
The God I serve is described in the pages of the Bible. It's a sweeping collection of 42 unique books - some historical (Kings, Chronicles), some poetic (Psalms), prophetic (Isaiah), and personal (Pauls letters to the church), written by 40 authors over centuries of time all telling the same linear story. It's also deeply mysterious and in some situations unknowable, but that's to be expected. If I had to learn about computer programming, it would take a lifetime of reading plus hands on experience and I still wouldn't know as much as I should. I would at some point in time I'd have to trust that the computer I sit in front of, something I don't fully understand, still will operate as expected - that is the "faith" component that we have to accept no matter if it's a computer, a car, or which way to honor God.
Jesus isn't "a way" to God. That's not what he claimed to be. He said he was "the way" - John 14:6, and other passages describe the unique claims of Christ. It's a confrontational statement. Is this Christ someone who is a lunatic, a liar, or who he claims to be - the Lord? Every seeker needs to sort out if they accept this statement or not. There are great "non-biblical" resources that help answer some of the questions people rightly have about a Christian world view. One of my favorite recommendations is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel#The_Case_for_Christ
For those people who decide not to follow Christ, there is only one way at the end of our life on earth - eternal separation from God. What form that separation will take is not as clear as it may seem. Hell, lakes of fire, brimstone etc are for the most part described as punishment for Satan and his angels. It may well be for man. I confess that I don't know for certain what the fate of man will be, but what I am certain about is the next life is one eternally separated from a loving God based on decisions I freely and knowingly made in this life.
There's the "what about the eskimo's or aboriginal people who never knew the Christ you're preaching" argument. My God is a God of mercy. What understanding of God peoples have found through revelation and personal experience is a matter for God to settle with those people. The question then turns to those who have heard, who have looked, who have earnestly sought answers and decided to reject the message God has provided? A God of love provides men with a free will and won't force someone to continue on with Him.
Thanks for reading,
SGIP