Don't say you weren't warned

winex

New member
I realize this isn't a politics folder, but there is none, so this will have to work for now.

Mark Steyn's latest column is a must read. Given the rules for copyright, I am only taking a snippet from the beginning of the column as is permissible under "fair use" laws. Read the entire article, it's too important to miss.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pressure-222464-track-speech.html

If you happen to live in Kabul or Jalalabad, Ghurian or Kandahar, then a U.S. presidential speech about Afghanistan is, indeed, about Afghanistan. If you live anywhere else on the planet, a U.S. presidential speech about Afghanistan is really about America ? about American will, American purpose, American energy. How quickly the bright new dawn fades to the gray morning after. In Europe, the long-awaited unveiling of this most thoughtful of presidents' deliberations got mixed reviews ? some bad, some brutal. Der Spiegel called it "half-hearted," The Guardian called it "desperate." And those are his friends.

You could watch the great orator's listless, tentative performance with the sound down and get the basic message: I don't need this in my life right now. If you read the text, it made even less sense. There's something for everyone: A surge! ... and a withdrawal. He's agreed to surge for a bit, but only in preparation for a de-surge in 18 months' time. I said on the radio that the speech reminded me of the English nursery rhyme:

"The Grand Old Duke of York
He had ten thousand men
He marched them up to the top of the hill
And he marched them down again."

The Grand Young Duke of Hope has 30,000 men. He'll march them up the Khyber Pass but he'll march them down again in July 2011. If you're some village headman who's been making nice to the Americans, the Taliban have a whole new pitch for you: In a year and a half, the Yanks are going. But we'll still be here.
 
Thanks for the warning. Thats the typical Mark Steyn stupid remark. The guy needs to go back to Canada where he belongs.

Lets look at some facts. Who put the Taliban in power ?
We did. During the Soviet Occupation from 79 to 89 we pumped billions of dollars in aid and weapons to them. We created the mess in the first place with our policy.

Did any Taliban attack us on 9/11 ?. Nope. Not a one.
We attacked them and took their country because they would not give back Osama Bin Laden quick enough. Its a custom in this part of the world to protect Muslim visitors. Now we have been their for 8 years. Not much left of Al Qaeda any more. Remember THOSE are the guys we are after. Not so much the Taliban. They happen to pay the best salary to a population that is only about 10% literate and has massive unemployment.

Now also take into consideration all the Opium we are helping produce. The Taliban eradicated it.

I think the Taliban are way too crazy in their laws against women
and freedom. But guess what. Its their country. Not ours.
Let Afghanistan be its own country.

I think Obama made a great decision. He told the Afghan Government what they needed to do if they want to keep power.
That they just cant use us to fight their war against the Taliban while we pay for everything and they do as little as possible.

It makes NO SENSE for this county to fight a prolonged war in a far away country against a foe, The Taliban, that never attacked us in the first place. They could just hide in the hills and caves for decades. And thats not a war thats going to keep public support at home either. Setting a time line was very wise if you have the perspective of clear thinking.
 
I'm no longer going to engage in politics on Talk Irvine.

Neither should anyone else.

If I moderated this forum, I would delete this sort of thread on sight - no matter who posted it.

THIS is what the smite button was for.

dislike_both_parties_bumper_sticker-p128014310798532166trl0_400.jpg
 
[quote author="novaseline"]I'm no longer going to engage in politics on Talk Irvine.

Neither should anyone else.

If I moderated this forum, I would delete this sort of thread on sight - no matter who posted it.[/quote]

But if you banned people, there would be nobody left to fight with. You'd be sooo bored! Think about it. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
 
I have to say that as of late (or maybe before), I agree with no_vas and I hate both parties. I'm sort of done talking about politics, nothing changes and nobody changes. What's the point? So sad because I love reading everyone's posts about politics, I've just become increasingly so confused about all of it that I don't really have anything to say. There just aren't many issues I'm ready to become all fired up about. I hope I change my mind at some point. Disillusioned, I guess.
 
[quote author="SoCal78"]
[quote author="novaseline"]I'm no longer going to engage in politics on Talk Irvine.

Neither should anyone else.

If I moderated this forum, I would delete this sort of thread on sight - no matter who posted it.[/quote]

But if you banned people, there would be nobody left to fight with. You'd be sooo bored! Think about it. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->[/quote]

Naw. Some moron would try to tell me that they could turn thier gated community Fullerton home into a vacation rental sooner or later. The world is full of idiots.
 
There is a line between between being controversial to stimulate argument and being an @-hole. My suggestion is to find that line, and stay on the controversial side of it.
 
[quote author="evalseraphim"]There is a line between between being controversial to stimulate argument and being an @-hole. My suggestion is to find that line, and stay on the controversial side of it. [/quote]

I think that's good advice, but I'm not taking the bait and staying away from that line as much as I can.....is avoidance okay?

Seriously, there are a bunch of polical forums. If you want argue politics, go post on the OCR comments section or something. Stay the heck out of Talk Irvine.
 
^^^ I pretty much agree.

When Nude and BK were thinking about whether to come over, I was having some second thoughts too, based on some of the folks who came out of the woodwork and whether it would be the type of forum in which I would enjoy participating. I'm trying really hard to believe in redemption and the idea that leopards might be able to change their spots, or at least fade them a bit.
 
[quote author="novaseline"]I'm no longer going to engage in politics on Talk Irvine.

Neither should anyone else.

If I moderated this forum, I would delete this sort of thread on sight - no matter who posted it.

THIS is what the smite button was for.

dislike_both_parties_bumper_sticker-p128014310798532166trl0_400.jpg
[/quote]

Doesn't that go without saying? Wanting to control other people's actions and thoughts is really par for the course for liberals these days.

I hope I am not offending your left wing tendencies when I recommend that if you don't like reading what I write, either put me on ignore, skip threads that I start, or learn to live with me. Believe it or not, I have received numerous PMs from people at the old forum who enjoy reading my perspective on things.
 
[quote author="bltserv"]Thanks for the warning. Thats the typical Mark Steyn stupid remark. The guy needs to go back to Canada where he belongs.

Lets look at some facts. Who put the Taliban in power ?
We did. During the Soviet Occupation from 79 to 89 we pumped billions of dollars in aid and weapons to them. We created the mess in the first place with our policy.

Did any Taliban attack us on 9/11 ?. Nope. Not a one.
We attacked them and took their country because they would not give back Osama Bin Laden quick enough. Its a custom in this part of the world to protect Muslim visitors. Now we have been their for 8 years. Not much left of Al Qaeda any more. Remember THOSE are the guys we are after. Not so much the Taliban. They happen to pay the best salary to a population that is only about 10% literate and has massive unemployment.

Now also take into consideration all the Opium we are helping produce. The Taliban eradicated it.

I think the Taliban are way too crazy in their laws against women
and freedom. But guess what. Its their country. Not ours.
Let Afghanistan be its own country.

I think Obama made a great decision. He told the Afghan Government what they needed to do if they want to keep power.
That they just cant use us to fight their war against the Taliban while we pay for everything and they do as little as possible.

It makes NO SENSE for this county to fight a prolonged war in a far away country against a foe, The Taliban, that never attacked us in the first place. They could just hide in the hills and caves for decades. And thats not a war thats going to keep public support at home either. Setting a time line was very wise if you have the perspective of clear thinking.


I've got a news flash for you, we are at war with the Taliban. They are allies of al Qaida and provided a base for the terrorist organization in the years leading up to September 11th. Those years included numerous unanswered attacks against our country.

Now that that line of nonsense is out of the way, back to the primary premise being stated here. You defeat an enemy by breaking their will. We have just ensured that the enemy will continue to fight.

If Obama (as Command in Chief) wants to surrender, why wait 18 months? By re-energizing the enemy he has only ensured that we will suffer pointless casualties and that al Qaida will ultimately regain the foothold that President Bush removed from them.

The only reason I can see for Obama to wait 18 months before surrendering is that he hopes the next al Qaeda led terrorist attack on US soil will come after the 2012 elections.

















[/quote]
 
[quote author="evalseraphim"]^^^ I pretty much agree.

When Nude and BK were thinking about whether to come over, I was having some second thoughts too, based on some of the folks who came out of the woodwork and whether it would be the type of forum in which I would enjoy participating. I'm trying really hard to believe in redemption and the idea that leopards might be able to change their spots, or at least fade them a bit.[/quote]

Come now Eva, we are all adults here. You don't have to beat around the bush. If you were to come out and say that my presense caused you to consider whether or not to come here, I would have a lot more respect for you than if you simply continue inferring it.
 
[quote author="winex"]Doesn't that go without saying? Wanting to control other people's actions and thoughts is really par for the course for liberals these days.

I hope I am not offending your left wing tendencies when I recommend that if you don't like reading what I write, either put me on ignore, skip threads that I start, or learn to live with me. Believe it or not, I have received numerous PMs from people at the old forum who enjoy reading my perspective on things.[/quote]

I think you have this all wrong. I don't dislike your politics one bit. What I dislike is that you spew opinion as facts, and fail to back it up wit data and cites (like over on the gold thread). My politics feels fine, but my intelligence deserves an apology.

If you like, I'll simply respond to your articles by bolding the most egregious flaws in logic and cite them. But then I'm not debating you, I'm simply going to keep you honest.
 
You defeat an enemy by breaking their will. We have just ensured that the enemy will continue to fight.

If Obama (as Command in Chief) wants to surrender, why wait 18 months? By re-energizing the enemy he has only ensured that we will suffer pointless casualties and that al Qaida will ultimately regain the foothold that President Bush removed from them.

The only reason I can see for Obama to wait 18 months before surrendering is that he hopes the next al Qaeda led terrorist attack on US soil will come after the 2012 elections.

So lets see. 8 Years is not enough time to weed out a few thousand guys hiding in some caves ? How do you fight them if they are really the civilians who just need money/jobs. Should we just keep killing every Arab thats too religious ?

Last time I recall most of these Bad-Guys. Osama and the Mullah Omar are in Pakistan. So do we need to invade Pakistan too ?
Why just limit it to Afghanistan. Lets go after all the Arab Peoples
of the world.

Your on a slippery slope here. Lets just keep sending our boys over there and fight them over there instead of here ?

Thats the line of Sh!t you have bought ? Its just a total lie.
Keep watching Glenn Beck and all the other war mongers at Fox.
 
[quote author="novaseline"]
[quote author="winex"]Doesn't that go without saying? Wanting to control other people's actions and thoughts is really par for the course for liberals these days.

I hope I am not offending your left wing tendencies when I recommend that if you don't like reading what I write, either put me on ignore, skip threads that I start, or learn to live with me. Believe it or not, I have received numerous PMs from people at the old forum who enjoy reading my perspective on things.[/quote]

I think you have this all wrong. I don't dislike your politics one bit. What I dislike is that you spew opinion as facts, and fail to back it up wit data and cites (like over on the gold thread). My politics feels fine, but my intelligence deserves an apology.

If you like, I'll simply respond to your articles by bolding the most egregious flaws in logic and cite them. But then I'm not debating you, I'm simply going to keep you honest.



[/quote]

Your hypocrisy is only exceeded by your stupidity. It's a shame that you aren't half as smart as you think you are. Otherwise you would recognize the irony in a statement about someone spewing opinion as fact. Your characterization of a simple post of an opinion on the future direction of gold prices as "spew" is obviously an opinion that you are presenting as fact.

And as long as you are going to work on keeping someone honest, why don't you turn your efforts inwards. I'm already honest. And you have a lot of opportunity to improve yourself in that area.
 
[quote author="bltserv"]
You defeat an enemy by breaking their will. We have just ensured that the enemy will continue to fight.

If Obama (as Command in Chief) wants to surrender, why wait 18 months? By re-energizing the enemy he has only ensured that we will suffer pointless casualties and that al Qaida will ultimately regain the foothold that President Bush removed from them.

The only reason I can see for Obama to wait 18 months before surrendering is that he hopes the next al Qaeda led terrorist attack on US soil will come after the 2012 elections.

So lets see. 8 Years is not enough time to weed out a few thousand guys hiding in some caves ? How do you fight them if they are really the civilians who just need money/jobs. Should we just keep killing every Arab thats too religious ?

Last time I recall most of these Bad-Guys. Osama and the Mullah Omar are in Pakistan. So do we need to invade Pakistan too ?
Why just limit it to Afghanistan. Lets go after all the Arab Peoples
of the world.

Your on a slippery slope here. Lets just keep sending our boys over there and fight them over there instead of here ?

Thats the line of Sh!t you have bought ? Its just a total lie.
Keep watching Glenn Beck and all the other war mongers at Fox.








[/quote]

It's a shame that you don't have the opportunity to work with some of the people that I do. Not only would you recognize what an ass you are being by deriding the work of some of the finest citizens this country has, but you might come to recognize how dangerous the ideas you are supporting are to all of us.
 
Hey Winex

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12/08/russia.afghan.heroin/

So what about the war on Drugs in Afghanistan. Why is it that the Karzai government allows the production of Opium at such an unprecedented rate ? Because his family is getting rich from it.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-afghanistan-cash7-2009dec07,0,6226073.story

What about all the cash coming out of Afghanistan ?

The American people are once again being lied too. This war is not about finding those that attacked us. Its about money and corruption. Its about helping a puppet government stay in power.

Thankfully our President is intelligent enough to end this waste and fraud on the American people and bring our troops home.

Without calling names Winex. Can you even discuss this without all the emotion. Just face it. Your WRONG.
 
[quote author="novaseline"]
[quote author="winex"]
Your hypocrisy is only exceeded by your stupidity.[/quote]

Why the personal attack?[/quote]

It's not a personal attack. It's an honest assessment of you as a person.

You characterize my conversations as "spew", mention in another thread that you are here to "keep me honest" (which implies that I am a dishonest person), and wonder why I would be offended.

That's pretty f***in stupid in my book.

Of course the irony of you saying that I "spew opinions as fact" is an example of you doing what you accuse me of doing.

That puts a check mark by the hypocrisy statement.

If you don't like being called out for who and what you are, then change your behavior.
 
[quote author="bltserv"]Hey Winex

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12/08/russia.afghan.heroin/

So what about the war on Drugs in Afghanistan. Why is it that the Karzai government allows the production of Opium at such an unprecedented rate ? Because his family is getting rich from it.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-afghanistan-cash7-2009dec07,0,6226073.story

What about all the cash coming out of Afghanistan ?

The American people are once again being lied too. This war is not about finding those that attacked us. Its about money and corruption. Its about helping a puppet government stay in power.

Thankfully our President is intelligent enough to end this waste and fraud on the American people and bring our troops home.

Without calling names Winex. Can you even discuss this without all the emotion. Just face it. Your WRONG.



[/quote]

Sorry, but your diversion tactic failed.

If the war isn't worth fighting, why commit 30,000 troops and wait 18 months before surrendering?

If it is worth fighting, why announce a surrender now?
 
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