Author Topic: Countdown for in-person schooling  (Read 6921 times)

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Online eyephone

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2020, 03:30:19 PM »
Qwerty: I respect and get what you are saying. But it is just not college students that are getting covid. Approximately 1,193 students and teachers were quarantined in the Cherokee County School District. (Canton, GA) Approximately 10 or 11 schools had letters sent to parents to communicate that a student has covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/georgia-school-coronavirus.amp.html

This is just one example. There are many stories similar to this.

Offline zovall

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2020, 07:41:37 PM »
Here's the status on the private school waivers:
https://occovid19.ochealthinfo.com/school-waiver-status

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Offline freedomcm

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2020, 07:14:37 AM »
Counterpoint:  Many students appeared mask-less in the photos of the crowded hallways of Georgia schools.

Can't fix stupid.

Qwerty: I respect and get what you are saying. But it is just not college students that are getting covid. Approximately 1,193 students and teachers were quarantined in the Cherokee County School District. (Canton, GA) Approximately 10 or 11 schools had letters sent to parents to communicate that a student has covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/georgia-school-coronavirus.amp.html

This is just one example. There are many stories similar to this.

Online nosuchreality

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2020, 08:32:36 AM »
My kid's hybrid classmates have siblings in three different middle schools and two different high schools plus an additional private school, that I know of from past interactions. That doesn't include the large number of younger siblings or the 18 kids in the other shift and cleaning protocols between AM/PM kids.

I guess it is a 'small' cohort.


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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2020, 01:03:42 PM »
School administrators in a local district have already said they don’t have the resources to clean every classroom daily. This should be addressed prior to any reopening.

Offline Bullsback

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 08:38:45 AM »
@qwerty: You can't compare a classroom to a grocery store.

Why not? Grocery stores have more people come in than a classroom would have. Adults that are more infectious than elementary aged kids who do not transmit covid at the same levels.

Elementary schools are probably different than middle and high schools in that respect as the older kids seem to transit covid at the same rate as adults. With the older kids though it’s easier for them to wear masks (if mandated). The nba games being announced in the bubble have plexiglass between the announcers. Pretty interesting setup actually.

For elementary schools they could have just cut out all of the bullshit and do two sessions of three hours each. Each kid sits at their desk that has plexiglass around the desks, have the teacher stand behind the plexiglass. Teach three hours and send the kids home. No recess, no lunch. Have the kids eat at home.

You could do a similar set up for middle and high schools. In theory the middle and high schools can be more regimented as the kids are older.
The one fundamental question at hand is, is it better to get exposed to a lot of people for very short amounts of time or the same set of people for extended amounts of time.  I don't know the answer to that - but I think the reason why infections are high in places like restaurants is you are indoor and for more extended period of times and thus it is more likely if someone comes in contact with the virus, they are in contact with it for a bit more extended of a time and therefor more likely to cause infection. 

So it is kind of one of those, in a grocery store you see way more people but have a likely lower probability of infection rate.  In a school - way less people (assuming schools keep classes small and keep contact within the classes) - but if one person is infected, infection rate much higher. 

The reality is - they should have those rapid testing (even if they aren't highly effective) within schools, etc, as a way to tightly monitor everything so that when you have outbreaks - you keep them small and well contained.  I.e., lock them down at the source. 

Offline Bullsback

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2020, 08:41:54 AM »
There are many colleges closings and outbreaks throughout the US. (with the safety precautions) Also, students are getting covid in elementary schools.

I think it is a shame for people (elected officials, school boards, admins) giving the false narrative that it is safe. Sometimes you have to let them learn from their mistakes to learn.
For the elementary school students - it is likely extremely safe. For the teachers, obviously a bit more risk. But you also can't ignore the impact LT at home school with more limited peer interactions, etc, has on children.  But everyone obviously has different degrees of risk tolerance, etc. 

I still don't get why California hasn't went to my idea which kind of aligns with Qwerty's, except for I'd be doing the teaching outdoors (outdoor with spacing and masks - very minimal risk for teachers & students). Call it a win win and for the 1st time ever, California students will get equivalent of snowdays when it is either way too hot or raining (which we all know is pretty rare anyway) and on those days they'll just pivot to the existing virtual platform. 

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Online eyephone

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 08:53:21 AM »
There are many colleges closings and outbreaks throughout the US. (with the safety precautions) Also, students are getting covid in elementary schools.

I think it is a shame for people (elected officials, school boards, admins) giving the false narrative that it is safe. Sometimes you have to let them learn from their mistakes to learn.
For the elementary school students - it is likely extremely safe. For the teachers, obviously a bit more risk. But you also can't ignore the impact LT at home school with more limited peer interactions, etc, has on children.  But everyone obviously has different degrees of risk tolerance, etc. 

I still don't get why California hasn't went to my idea which kind of aligns with Qwerty's, except for I'd be doing the teaching outdoors (outdoor with spacing and masks - very minimal risk for teachers & students). Call it a win win and for the 1st time ever, California students will get equivalent of snowdays when it is either way too hot or raining (which we all know is pretty rare anyway) and on those days they'll just pivot to the existing virtual platform.

Extremely safe?

Offline Bullsback

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 09:12:53 AM »
There are many colleges closings and outbreaks throughout the US. (with the safety precautions) Also, students are getting covid in elementary schools.

I think it is a shame for people (elected officials, school boards, admins) giving the false narrative that it is safe. Sometimes you have to let them learn from their mistakes to learn.
For the elementary school students - it is likely extremely safe. For the teachers, obviously a bit more risk. But you also can't ignore the impact LT at home school with more limited peer interactions, etc, has on children.  But everyone obviously has different degrees of risk tolerance, etc. 

I still don't get why California hasn't went to my idea which kind of aligns with Qwerty's, except for I'd be doing the teaching outdoors (outdoor with spacing and masks - very minimal risk for teachers & students). Call it a win win and for the 1st time ever, California students will get equivalent of snowdays when it is either way too hot or raining (which we all know is pretty rare anyway) and on those days they'll just pivot to the existing virtual platform.

Extremely safe?
Yes - I do believe the data would back up the fact that it is extremely safe for elementary school aged children.  Note, I am ignoring the teachers who are impacted and other secondary impacts (i.e., child infecting their parents, grandparents and others).  But for the elementary age children who get infected, stats seem to back up that they will get better without lasting side effects.  Doesn't mean there won't be issues, but demographically they seem to be the least impacted (and I am purely pointing out Elementary age students). 

Online morekaos

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 09:30:21 AM »
...a FACT that should be celebrated, not buried.

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 09:39:13 AM »
@bullsh7: The data? Looks like the schools that did open early had many problems. The evidence speaks for its self.

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 09:47:41 AM »
@bullsback: What studies show that elementary age kids that get Covid will have no long-term effects? That's impossible to tell right now because we are not time travelers.

Edit: I tried googling for "no long term effects of covid on children" and found these instead:

https://www.winknews.com/2020/07/17/health-officials-worry-about-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-on-kids/

https://khn.org/news/why-doctors-keep-monitoring-kids-who-recover-from-mysterious-covid-linked-illness/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/health/children-long-covid-symptoms-intl-gbr/index.html

https://cbs12.com/news/local/doctors-concerned-that-covid-19-may-be-harming-lungs-of-children
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 09:53:02 AM by irvinehomeowner »
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Offline qwerty

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 10:09:38 AM »
@qwerty: You can't compare a classroom to a grocery store.

Why not? Grocery stores have more people come in than a classroom would have. Adults that are more infectious than elementary aged kids who do not transmit covid at the same levels.

Elementary schools are probably different than middle and high schools in that respect as the older kids seem to transit covid at the same rate as adults. With the older kids though it’s easier for them to wear masks (if mandated). The nba games being announced in the bubble have plexiglass between the announcers. Pretty interesting setup actually.

For elementary schools they could have just cut out all of the bullshit and do two sessions of three hours each. Each kid sits at their desk that has plexiglass around the desks, have the teacher stand behind the plexiglass. Teach three hours and send the kids home. No recess, no lunch. Have the kids eat at home.

You could do a similar set up for middle and high schools. In theory the middle and high schools can be more regimented as the kids are older.
The one fundamental question at hand is, is it better to get exposed to a lot of people for very short amounts of time or the same set of people for extended amounts of time.  I don't know the answer to that - but I think the reason why infections are high in places like restaurants is you are indoor and for more extended period of times and thus it is more likely if someone comes in contact with the virus, they are in contact with it for a bit more extended of a time and therefor more likely to cause infection. 

So it is kind of one of those, in a grocery store you see way more people but have a likely lower probability of infection rate.  In a school - way less people (assuming schools keep classes small and keep contact within the classes) - but if one person is infected, infection rate much higher. 

The reality is - they should have those rapid testing (even if they aren't highly effective) within schools, etc, as a way to tightly monitor everything so that when you have outbreaks - you keep them small and well contained.  I.e., lock them down at the source. 

I don’t think being in doors is necessary the main problem. Using a grocery store as an example that gets a lot of people volume, if the air was contaminated and dispersed throughout the existing workers would probably get sick and there haven’t been any clusters of employees at grocery stores getting sick. Which is why I don’t think it’s airborne. I also agree that contaminated surfaces are not big transmission points because the grocery store clerked would be getting sick in droves.

So everything seems to point to infections happening from close, face to face encounters. Which is what happens at restaurants. You sit in close proximity and generally face to face with people in your party. And a lot of times there is an outside (non-household member) so it could be that person spreading to to the core household group. Also, while contaminated surfaces don’t seem to cause many cases I think restaurants and bars a little different.

Waiters are taking back dishes and touching fresh/wet saliva and they may or not follow strict protocols where they switch gloves after picking up a set of dishes. A server may come pick up your plate and silverware and take it back and then not switch gloves and give another customer their meal, etc.

With bars it’s probably even worse. The bartenders are picking up drinks and serving new ones. I haven’t been to bar since the pandemic started but I’m guessing in a lot of those bars they don’t have a system (perhaps they do) where there is a designated person to pick up drinks that are done and the bartender just serves/touches clean glasses/bottles.

In an elementary school environment. I think you can set it up in two three hour blocks with as mentioned earlier and minimize the interactions amongst the kids themselves as well as between the teachers and elementary students.

So I would agree with bullsback that elementary in person teaching can be done very safely. I would even say you can just do one three hour session with all 20-30 kids present and just knock out one three hour session and that would give the school personnel and teachers more time within their 8 hour work window to prepare for the next day, grade homework and disinfect the rooms. Especially if the desks have been set up with plexiglass barriers, so each student is in their own little plexiglass pod/desk. This could have been but as usual government is too stupid. They just spent $3 trillion dollars so money should not have been an issue.

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 10:42:28 AM »
I think the problem is that bull does not read the news about the school reopening or thinks the cases are fake.

@bullsback: What studies show that elementary age kids that get Covid will have no long-term effects? That's impossible to tell right now because we are not time travelers.

Edit: I tried googling for "no long term effects of covid on children" and found these instead:

https://www.winknews.com/2020/07/17/health-officials-worry-about-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-on-kids/

https://khn.org/news/why-doctors-keep-monitoring-kids-who-recover-from-mysterious-covid-linked-illness/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/health/children-long-covid-symptoms-intl-gbr/index.html

https://cbs12.com/news/local/doctors-concerned-that-covid-19-may-be-harming-lungs-of-children

Offline Bullsback

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Re: Countdown for in-person schooling
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 11:10:52 AM »
@bullsh7: The data? Looks like the schools that did open early had many problems. The evidence speaks for its self.
You are talking about some people being infected. I am talking about health. If everyone in our population responded to the virus like an elementary aged children, we would not have shut down the country and we would not be talking about COVID (at least not to this extent).

You need to re-read very clearly what I stated.  I am speaking solely to the bubble that is the elementary age child. I'm not speaking towards impact of that child getting other people sick or creating new outbreaks for others, what I am stating is, yes, elementary aged children will get infected (some will very much so) but they will also get better (at a rate far more similar to a cold / flu). 

For sake of this analysis - I am completely ignoring them infecting teachers, parents, grandparents and the broader community.  I will also caveat all data on children is more limited and in particular data through community spread at schools is also very limited.  We should know more in the next couple weeks (good and / or bad) but of course everything we know about the virus is really just short-term data.

I also will wait and see how data emerges amongst schools.  I'm a huge believer in having schools open, but schools need to put a ton of protections in place, many of which will be completely unable to do so.  Sending people back to school as if it were pre-covid...doesn't make sense...but doing it in a smart way...well oaky, that is potentially doable. 

 

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