Author Topic: Artificial Intelligence  (Read 4539 times)

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2019, 12:44:00 PM »
I think you both are missing my point.

Teaching a computer to play a game, where no lives are at risk is easily acceptable.

Teaching a computer to drive a car or pilot a plane, there are many other factors that need to be taken into account due to interaction with numerous external elements that does not occur in a game of chess or Go.

And that's why I mentioned 100% saturation or change in road infrastructure, as long as non-AI elements are involved (ie humans) there will be an issue of safety that will be difficult to get over.

I also wonder about liability. In these cases where autonomous cars are involved in accidents, who got the blame? The human occupant? The AI? The car company?

Teaching a computer how to drive is probably a lot easier than go or chess...think about about how many people can drive versus how many people can master chess. 

AI will be better and faster at processing data and converting into action...it never takes its "eyes" off the road and is never distracted.  It can also link up with other smart cars on the road to get a much better picture than a human can. 

Offline inv0ke-epipen

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #76 on: April 15, 2019, 01:40:02 PM »
Also, I don't think AI is not capable of what everyone is hoping.

What I am (and others) are cautious about is how to adopt AI into society safely.

And no one has addressed the issue of hacking and using AI for more nefarious purposes... HAL-9000 isn't just rainbows and unicorns.

There exists an entire industry dedicated to address the risk of hacking.

KeenLab does some great stuff targeting autopilot: https://keenlab.tencent.com/en/2019/03/29/Tencent-Keen-Security-Lab-Experimental-Security-Research-of-Tesla-Autopilot/

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2019, 02:03:00 PM »
I think you both are missing my point.

Teaching a computer to play a game, where no lives are at risk is easily acceptable.

Teaching a computer to drive a car or pilot a plane, there are many other factors that need to be taken into account due to interaction with numerous external elements that does not occur in a game of chess or Go.

And that's why I mentioned 100% saturation or change in road infrastructure, as long as non-AI elements are involved (ie humans) there will be an issue of safety that will be difficult to get over.

I also wonder about liability. In these cases where autonomous cars are involved in accidents, who got the blame? The human occupant? The AI? The car company?

Teaching a computer how to drive is probably a lot easier than go or chess...think about about how many people can drive versus how many people can master chess. 

I disagree. The reason why people can't master chess is because they don't have the memory or capacity to understand the rules and think many scenarios ahead and to be able to catalog and combine on all those scenarios into a winning outcome. Chess is like a closed box with counters to all moves because each chess piece has a limited move set and each player has to take a turn. That's what computers are very good at... just like math.

Driving however is not something you can predict because there are numerous more variables that can affect driving. Other drivers, road conditions, weather, lights, etc... it's a whole different animal.

Quote
AI will be better and faster at processing data and converting into action...it never takes its "eyes" off the road and is never distracted.  It can also link up with other smart cars on the road to get a much better picture than a human can. 

Sure, I understand that. But that speaks again to saturation and infrastructure. Cars can't link up properly if not all cars are smart or if the drivers choose not to share their information (personally, I wouldn't want another vehicle to have access to my data). It's just like those Tile tracking devices that can find your item but it relies on other people to share their Tile location services (which goes back to my whole premise of data sharing and privacy).
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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2019, 02:04:55 PM »
Also, I don't think AI is not capable of what everyone is hoping.

What I am (and others) are cautious about is how to adopt AI into society safely.

And no one has addressed the issue of hacking and using AI for more nefarious purposes... HAL-9000 isn't just rainbows and unicorns.

There exists an entire industry dedicated to address the risk of hacking.

KeenLab does some great stuff targeting autopilot: https://keenlab.tencent.com/en/2019/03/29/Tencent-Keen-Security-Lab-Experimental-Security-Research-of-Tesla-Autopilot/

Exactly.

I didn't meant no one in the industry has addressed this, I mean the members here have not acknowledge that danger as credible when I brought it up here.

That article makes me trust autonomous driving less. :)
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2019, 02:22:14 PM »
I disagree. The reason why people can't master chess is because they don't have the memory or capacity to understand the rules and think many scenarios ahead and to be able to catalog and combine on all those scenarios into a winning outcome. Chess is like a closed box with counters to all moves because each chess piece has a limited move set and each player has to take a turn. That's what computers are very good at... just like math.

Driving however is not something you can predict because there are numerous more variables that can affect driving. Other drivers, road conditions, weather, lights, etc... it's a whole different animal.


Your brain operates very similar to a computer when it takes on a task like driving.  You take your past experience and combine it with your senses and combine it with reaction times.  It's why people who have never driven in the snow...don't know how to do it.  Or people who think rain is acid in Southern California. 

Computers will be much more attentive, unaffected by side issues/factors, have much better sensors, have a far bigger (and ever increasing) experience than any human, and far better reaction time than human beings.   

Chess and go are also not just about rote memory...it's about anticipation and setting up your opponent.  People thought that AI would not grasp Go because it requires a big picture view about what is happening.  AI looks silly in the beginning but it can learn nonstop and build off of real life/human experiences.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190125094230.htm

Quote
Sure, I understand that. But that speaks again to saturation and infrastructure. Cars can't link up properly if not all cars are smart or if the drivers choose not to share their information (personally, I wouldn't want another vehicle to have access to my data). It's just like those Tile tracking devices that can find your item but it relies on other people to share their Tile location services (which goes back to my whole premise of data sharing and privacy).

As for the smart car grid, of course having a few in the early phases will not have that much of an effect but right now, we are working on zero connectiion between the cars.   Having 10 to 15% of the cars connect to each other will be an immense increase in safety and efficiency. 

It's the wave of the future...trucks already have built in GPS and black boxes to track all sorts of things.  Look at a Tesla, the app will tell you where the car is at all times and if driving, what speeds and where.  Tesla already has that information.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 03:29:05 PM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2019, 02:23:37 PM »
Also, I don't think AI is not capable of what everyone is hoping.

What I am (and others) are cautious about is how to adopt AI into society safely.

And no one has addressed the issue of hacking and using AI for more nefarious purposes... HAL-9000 isn't just rainbows and unicorns.

There exists an entire industry dedicated to address the risk of hacking.

KeenLab does some great stuff targeting autopilot: https://keenlab.tencent.com/en/2019/03/29/Tencent-Keen-Security-Lab-Experimental-Security-Research-of-Tesla-Autopilot/

Exactly.

I didn't meant no one in the industry has addressed this, I mean the members here have not acknowledge that danger as credible when I brought it up here.

That article makes me trust autonomous driving less. :)

Honestly...the fear is not much different than people who think that they are safer driving a car than flying.  In an airplane, you have no control and rely on professional pilots and computers to get you from point A to point B....flying is significantly safer than driving.

People like having control...even if that control skews the benefits of that activity.

Offline Kenkoko

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2019, 03:09:21 PM »
It's hard to stop autonomous driving. There are just too many powerful arguments for it
- Huge economic incentives
- Already safer than human driving
- Driving is boring. 63% American prefer not to drive if possible
- Better fuel economy and better for the environment

The public perception is quickly changing too. 52% of U.S. adults think automated vehicles are more dangerous than traditional vehicles operated by people. But that number was 86% in 2016.

California regulators has just proposed regulations that would allow vehicle manufacturers to deploy small self-driving delivery trucks on public roads.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-proposes-steps-allow-small-184444591.html

Autonomous driving is here whether you like it or not.

Offline nosuchreality

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2019, 07:01:31 AM »

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2019, 08:00:52 AM »
It's hard to stop autonomous driving. There are just too many powerful arguments for it
- Huge economic incentives
- Already safer than human driving
- Driving is boring. 63% American prefer not to drive if possible
- Better fuel economy and better for the environment

The public perception is quickly changing too. 52% of U.S. adults think automated vehicles are more dangerous than traditional vehicles operated by people. But that number was 86% in 2016.

California regulators has just proposed regulations that would allow vehicle manufacturers to deploy small self-driving delivery trucks on public roads.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-proposes-steps-allow-small-184444591.html

Autonomous driving is here whether you like it or not.

I do think you guys are simplifying things here a bit.

While I do believe autonomous cars will happen I also think that there will be so many logistical issues that we won't see widespread usage for a while... possibly 10-20 years if not more.

For all those benefits you list, the hurdles are:

- Cost
- Safety (perceived or not)
- Resistance from labor organizations (as NSR posted)
- Scale (along with cost, you will have to replace or retrofit fleets of vehicles)
- Road infrastructure
- Connectivity/broadband infrastructure

But this is kind of going off of why I started this thread. There also has to be an implementation analysis of what is a better use of AI.

For me, rather than try to replace labor groups, I'd rather have AI focus on things we haven't solved... hunger (crop analysis, food production, etc), medical (Siri needs to get on that cancer issue), poverty (create opportunities for everyone to be able to earn money... UBI?), and conflict (bridge the gaps between cultures/countries).

I see Microsoft commercials that show how AI is used to map ruins, make beer, etc... but what about stuff to improve society (and yes, I realize autonomous cars do help but that's not high on my list of what we need).
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2019, 08:49:31 AM »
It's hard to stop autonomous driving. There are just too many powerful arguments for it
- Huge economic incentives
- Already safer than human driving
- Driving is boring. 63% American prefer not to drive if possible
- Better fuel economy and better for the environment

The public perception is quickly changing too. 52% of U.S. adults think automated vehicles are more dangerous than traditional vehicles operated by people. But that number was 86% in 2016.

California regulators has just proposed regulations that would allow vehicle manufacturers to deploy small self-driving delivery trucks on public roads.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-proposes-steps-allow-small-184444591.html

Autonomous driving is here whether you like it or not.

I do think you guys are simplifying things here a bit.

While I do believe autonomous cars will happen I also think that there will be so many logistical issues that we won't see widespread usage for a while... possibly 10-20 years if not more.

For all those benefits you list, the hurdles are:

- Cost
- Safety (perceived or not)
- Resistance from labor organizations (as NSR posted)
- Scale (along with cost, you will have to replace or retrofit fleets of vehicles)
- Road infrastructure
- Connectivity/broadband infrastructure

But this is kind of going off of why I started this thread. There also has to be an implementation analysis of what is a better use of AI.

For me, rather than try to replace labor groups, I'd rather have AI focus on things we haven't solved... hunger (crop analysis, food production, etc), medical (Siri needs to get on that cancer issue), poverty (create opportunities for everyone to be able to earn money... UBI?), and conflict (bridge the gaps between cultures/countries).

I see Microsoft commercials that show how AI is used to map ruins, make beer, etc... but what about stuff to improve society (and yes, I realize autonomous cars do help but that's not high on my list of what we need).

Those don't make money...no financial incentives to do those things.

Offline nosuchreality

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2019, 11:33:53 AM »
Doesn't the Boeing Max8 crashes really answer all those concerns about AI and what exactly companies will do?

Yesterday was tax day. 

Automation has been impacting the back office of companies for a long time.  Look around your office though how many of your coworkers in your location have a large portion of their daily job routines that really isn't more complex than completing taxes? 

I did my taxes in basically an hour.  Import, import, import... review.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2019, 03:46:54 PM »
Oh...it's coming

Quote
The Chinese government has drawn wide international condemnation for its harsh crackdown on ethnic Muslims in its western region, including holding as many as a million of them in detention camps.

Now, documents and interviews show that the authorities are also using a vast, secret system of advanced facial recognition technology to track and control the Uighurs, a largely Muslim minority. It is the first known example of a government intentionally using artificial intelligence for racial profiling, experts said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/technology/china-surveillance-artificial-intelligence-racial-profiling.html

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Offline marmott

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2019, 03:47:35 PM »
I don't think AI has anything to do with the MCAS on the 737 MAX. The MCAS "helps pilots bring the nose down in the event the jet's angle of attack drifted too high when flying manually, putting the aircraft at risk of stalling".

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/


Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2019, 08:10:27 AM »
Not sure if this is really an issue but there are concerns in AI about diversity bias:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/17/artificial-intelligence-diversity-disaster/

Quote
The lack of diversity within artificial intelligence is pushing the field to a dangerous "tipping point," according to new research from the AI Now Institute. It says that due to an overwhelming proportion of white males in the field, the technology is at risk of perpetuating historical biases and power imbalances.

The consequences of this issue are well documented, from hate speech-spewing chatbots to racial bias in facial recognition. The report says that these failings -- attributed to a lack of diversity within the AI sector -- have created a "moment of reckoning." Report author Kate Crawford said that the industry needs to acknowledge the gravity of the situation, and that the use of AI systems for classification, detection and predication of race and gender "is in urgent need of re-evaluation."

Indeed, the report found that more than 80 percent of AI professors are men -- a figure that reflects a wider problem across the computer science landscape. In 2015 women comprised only 24 percent of the computer and information sciences workforce. Meanwhile, only 2.5 percent of Google's employees are black, with Facebook and Microsoft each reporting an only marginally higher four percent. Data on trans employees and other gender minorities is almost non-existent.

So this may be "snowflaking" but given the state of US politics today, this is something to worry about.
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Artificial Intelligence
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2019, 08:32:05 AM »
Not sure if this is really an issue but there are concerns in AI about diversity bias:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/17/artificial-intelligence-diversity-disaster/

Quote
The lack of diversity within artificial intelligence is pushing the field to a dangerous "tipping point," according to new research from the AI Now Institute. It says that due to an overwhelming proportion of white males in the field, the technology is at risk of perpetuating historical biases and power imbalances.

The consequences of this issue are well documented, from hate speech-spewing chatbots to racial bias in facial recognition. The report says that these failings -- attributed to a lack of diversity within the AI sector -- have created a "moment of reckoning." Report author Kate Crawford said that the industry needs to acknowledge the gravity of the situation, and that the use of AI systems for classification, detection and predication of race and gender "is in urgent need of re-evaluation."

Indeed, the report found that more than 80 percent of AI professors are men -- a figure that reflects a wider problem across the computer science landscape. In 2015 women comprised only 24 percent of the computer and information sciences workforce. Meanwhile, only 2.5 percent of Google's employees are black, with Facebook and Microsoft each reporting an only marginally higher four percent. Data on trans employees and other gender minorities is almost non-existent.

So this may be "snowflaking" but given the state of US politics today, this is something to worry about.

For sure...remember that article a few months back where TIC was selling license plate information to ICE?   It's coming.

 

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