Author Topic: The 2020 Presidential Election  (Read 27711 times)

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Offline Kenkoko

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #825 on: September 17, 2019, 04:08:53 PM »
If you give the middle class an $800 tax cut, as Trump did, it's criticized as irresponsible for the budget.  If you promise to pay people $1,000 per month, it's hailed as forward thinking and visionary.  It's funny how these socialist kooks love the idea of getting a $1,000 check in the mail, but revile having their take home pay increased via lower taxes.  The net effect is absolutely the same, except Yang's plan is 15x as costly as Trump's.

Yang's freedom dividend isn't all that different from Milton Friedman's negative income tax.

Socialism is government seizing means of production. This is not that. Yang's FD is capitalism where income does not start at 0. Consumers having money to spend is pro market.

This is why you see many conservatives and libertarians supporting Yang.

Lastly, I am not aware that Trump supports anything close to Milton Friedman's negative income tax. That's something I can get behind.

Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #826 on: September 17, 2019, 04:12:28 PM »
If you give the middle class an $800 tax cut, as Trump did, it's criticized as irresponsible for the budget.  If you promise to pay people $1,000 per month, it's hailed as forward thinking and visionary.  It's funny how these socialist kooks love the idea of getting a $1,000 check in the mail, but revile having their take home pay increased via lower taxes.  The net effect is absolutely the same, except Yang's plan is 15x as costly as Trump's.

not to mention actually paying for the $1k/mo free money.  oh, trump's tariffs are being passed on directly to the consumer?  who do you think is going to be paying for your $1k/mo free money?  that's right, we are!

Offline Kenkoko

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #827 on: September 17, 2019, 04:25:56 PM »
If you give the middle class an $800 tax cut, as Trump did, it's criticized as irresponsible for the budget.  If you promise to pay people $1,000 per month, it's hailed as forward thinking and visionary.  It's funny how these socialist kooks love the idea of getting a $1,000 check in the mail, but revile having their take home pay increased via lower taxes.  The net effect is absolutely the same, except Yang's plan is 15x as costly as Trump's.

not to mention actually paying for the $1k/mo free money.  oh, trump's tariffs are being passed on directly to the consumer?  who do you think is going to be paying for your $1k/mo free money?  that's right, we are!

It would depend on where you land on the household income spectrum. Yang's Freedom Dividend is funded by a VAT. If you are in the top 12% of Income, you will be a net loser. Bottom 88% of the households come out net winners.

https://twitter.com/scottsantens/status/1108831665160421378

Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #828 on: September 17, 2019, 04:27:04 PM »
anyway, back to daily gaffes from your future dnc nominee!

Quote
Joe Biden says his child care tax credit would put 720 million women back into the workforce

Another day, another gaffe from Joe Biden. Now, the former vice president doesn’t mean to sound like a wonk here; he’s just saying that if the U.S. had an $8,000 tax credit for childcare, 720 million women could return to the workforce, and our GDP would go through the roof.

We have many questions about that plan, such as where does Biden think he’s going to find 720 million women?

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2019/09/17/joe-biden-says-his-child-care-tax-credit-would-put-720-million-women-back-into-the-workforce-video/

Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #829 on: September 17, 2019, 04:30:35 PM »
If you give the middle class an $800 tax cut, as Trump did, it's criticized as irresponsible for the budget.  If you promise to pay people $1,000 per month, it's hailed as forward thinking and visionary.  It's funny how these socialist kooks love the idea of getting a $1,000 check in the mail, but revile having their take home pay increased via lower taxes.  The net effect is absolutely the same, except Yang's plan is 15x as costly as Trump's.

not to mention actually paying for the $1k/mo free money.  oh, trump's tariffs are being passed on directly to the consumer?  who do you think is going to be paying for your $1k/mo free money?  that's right, we are!

It would depend on where you land on the household income spectrum. Yang's Freedom Dividend is funded by a VAT. If you are in the top 12% of Income, you will be a net loser. Bottom 88% of the households come out net winners.

https://twitter.com/scottsantens/status/1108831665160421378

what happens when amazon (and all other retailers) add a new line item for 10% vat to all purchase orders?

Offline Kenkoko

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #830 on: September 17, 2019, 04:30:57 PM »
anyway, back to daily gaffes from your future dnc nominee!

I wouldn't be so sure of Biden. Yang just surpassed Kamala Harris in California polls today.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/andrew-yang-kamala-harris-california-2020-14447245.php

Offline Kenkoko

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #831 on: September 17, 2019, 04:36:46 PM »
what happens when amazon (and all other retailers) add a new line item for 10% vat to all purchase orders?

Sure companies will definitely try to pass that on to the consumers. VAT is a consumption tax. For references, the VAT pass through rate is about 50% in Europe.

If you use the same pass through rate as Europe, You will need to spend approximately 240k per year on VAT items to offset your 12k Freedom Dividend.

Even if we were to use 100% VAT pass through, you would still have to spend approximate 120k per year on VAT items in order to offset your 12k Freedom Dividend.

Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #832 on: September 17, 2019, 04:39:00 PM »
anyway, back to daily gaffes from your future dnc nominee!

I wouldn't be so sure of Biden. Yang just surpassed Kamala Harris in California polls today.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/andrew-yang-kamala-harris-california-2020-14447245.php

i think that says more about kamala's unpopularity in her own home state where she was ag and is a sitting us senator than yang.  if kamala was a true contender, she'd be leading her own state by double digits.

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Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #833 on: September 17, 2019, 04:42:15 PM »
what happens when amazon (and all other retailers) add a new line item for 10% vat to all purchase orders?

Sure companies will definitely try to pass that on to the consumers. VAT is a consumption tax. For references, the VAT pass through rate is about 50% in Europe.

If you use the same pass through rate as Europe, You will need to spend approximately 240k per year on VAT items to offset your 12k Freedom Dividend.

Even if we were to use 100% VAT pass through, you would still have to spend approximate 120k per year on VAT items in order to offset your 12k Freedom Dividend.

so let's use your 50% passthrough and 240k per year spending example since that seems more realistic.  are the top 12% of earners spending 240k per year in vat items?

Offline Kenkoko

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #834 on: September 17, 2019, 04:59:22 PM »
so let's use your 50% passthrough and 240k per year spending example since that seems more realistic.  are the top 12% of earners spending 240k per year in vat items?

Let's use 100% pass through because Yang has suggested to tailor the VAT to exempt consumer staples and ramping it up on luxury items. If that is implemented, it would be a bigger hit on wealthy households that buys more luxury goods. I think most people on TI would fall into the top 20% of US households. So let's use the higher number.

The mean consumption for bottom 20% of US household (2015) is $24,355. The mean consumption for the top 20% household (2015) is $110,424

A 10% VAT would draw $2,435 from the poorest 20% and $11,042 from the richest 20%
Combined with a $12k UBI, that's a net benefit of $800/mo for the bottom 20% and a net benefit of $80/mo for the top 20%

https://twitter.com/scottsantens/status/1108830884722032640

Offline Kings

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #835 on: September 18, 2019, 06:44:54 AM »
so let's use your 50% passthrough and 240k per year spending example since that seems more realistic.  are the top 12% of earners spending 240k per year in vat items?

Let's use 100% pass through because Yang has suggested to tailor the VAT to exempt consumer staples and ramping it up on luxury items. If that is implemented, it would be a bigger hit on wealthy households that buys more luxury goods. I think most people on TI would fall into the top 20% of US households. So let's use the higher number.

The mean consumption for bottom 20% of US household (2015) is $24,355. The mean consumption for the top 20% household (2015) is $110,424

A 10% VAT would draw $2,435 from the poorest 20% and $11,042 from the richest 20%
Combined with a $12k UBI, that's a net benefit of $800/mo for the bottom 20% and a net benefit of $80/mo for the top 20%

https://twitter.com/scottsantens/status/1108830884722032640

not sure how that data is being calculated because it's not transparent how the mean consumption is derived, but according to the linked bls survey income after taxes for the third 20% is $46,807 and their mean consumption is $45,861?  and it's even worse for the lowest 20% and second 20%.  does the mean consumption in this case include housing?  because a 10% vat on housing will definitely not fly.

Offline Soylent Green Is People

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #836 on: September 18, 2019, 07:54:29 AM »
May I propose the following for those who support Candidate Yang and the "Freedom Dividend".....

1) The average middle income is about $80k per year. The average upper income is $180k per year (see stats below)

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx

2) If your combined family income is lets say somewhere in between these figures ($130k and above) you're considered "upper middle class, to upper class". Is this you? Of course it is, dear reader... you live in The O.C.

3) Now get your 2018 year end credit card and bank statements. How much did you spend at Amazon and Costco for the year? I'm guessing that it's somewhere in the $10k to $20k range. Using the median, let's use $15k Why these two companies? Good question. Why not Apple, or Tesla, or IAC or some of the other companies that will ultimately pass through any VAT being charged to consumers - upper middle class consumers such as yourselves? Amazon and Costco are easy to chart as ongoing expenses.

4) As a Yang supporter, you feel strongly that the "Freedom Dividend (AKA: The robbing of Peter to pay Paul) is an acceptable economic model, please demonstrate your commitment to this belief. Write your own Freedom Dividend check starting today for $125 ($15k x 10% VAT / 12) to any of the following charities:


www.aplahealth.org

www.someonecareskitchen.org

www.bgca.org

www.ocfoodbank.org

and continue to do so for the next 13 months until the November election.

Not willing to do so? Why not? What is preventing a Yang supporter from doing the same thing Candidate Yang is doing - spending his own money to demonstrate how well this works. Nothing. Nothing is stopping a Yang supporter from putting their money where their mouth is, other than pure, unadulterated "Do what I say, not what I do" thinking. Break the cycle of hypocrisy dear Freedom Dividend supporters. Open your checkbooks and show the world the benefits of your personal "Freedom Dividend" offered for the betterment of your fellow citizen.

This "Freedom Dividend" talk is really, really great in theory - until asked to put it into practice on a personal level. At that time, whenever one is compelled to write earned money from a personal account to a complete stranger, all I expect to see or hear are crickets.

My .02c








« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:59:09 AM by Soylent Green Is People »

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Offline eyephone

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #837 on: September 18, 2019, 08:36:01 AM »
Hand on the Bible and spread a lot of lies.

Offline eyephone

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #838 on: September 18, 2019, 08:38:51 AM »
Give me a break. The US is on the path to a third world country or maybe 2nd tier. Thanks to who?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 08:48:04 AM by eyephone »

Offline zubs

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Re: The 2020 Presidential Election
« Reply #839 on: September 18, 2019, 08:48:47 AM »
May I propose the following for those who support Candidate Yang and the "Freedom Dividend".....

1) The average middle income is about $80k per year. The average upper income is $180k per year (see stats below)

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx

2) If your combined family income is lets say somewhere in between these figures ($130k and above) you're considered "upper middle class, to upper class". Is this you? Of course it is, dear reader... you live in The O.C.

3) Now get your 2018 year end credit card and bank statements. How much did you spend at Amazon and Costco for the year? I'm guessing that it's somewhere in the $10k to $20k range. Using the median, let's use $15k Why these two companies? Good question. Why not Apple, or Tesla, or IAC or some of the other companies that will ultimately pass through any VAT being charged to consumers - upper middle class consumers such as yourselves? Amazon and Costco are easy to chart as ongoing expenses.

4) As a Yang supporter, you feel strongly that the "Freedom Dividend (AKA: The robbing of Peter to pay Paul) is an acceptable economic model, please demonstrate your commitment to this belief. Write your own Freedom Dividend check starting today for $125 ($15k x 10% VAT / 12) to any of the following charities:


www.aplahealth.org

www.someonecareskitchen.org

www.bgca.org

www.ocfoodbank.org

and continue to do so for the next 13 months until the November election.

Not willing to do so? Why not? What is stopping a Yang supporter from doing the same thing Candidate Yang is doing - spending his own money to demonstrate how well this works. Nothing is stopping a Yang supporter from putting their money where their mouth is. Other than pure, unadulterated "Do what I say, not what I do" thinking.

Break the cycle of hypocrisy dear Yang supporters. Open your check books and show the world the benefits of your own personal "freedom dividend" offered to your fellow man.

This "Freedom Dividend" talk is really, really great in theory - until you're asked to put it into practice on a personal level. At that time, when asked to write earned money from your account to someone else, all we should ever expect to hear is crickets.

My .02c




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