Author Topic: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades  (Read 23195 times)

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Offline nosuchreality

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2018, 03:57:35 PM »
Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule.  https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.   Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.   However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive.   

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.
https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/uploaded/District_Office/Personnel_Services/2017_2018_Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2018, 05:22:56 PM »
More teacher pay does not equal better educated students. Having just graduated 2 HS out of the SVUSD, there are plenty of highly compensated teachers who are well past their "sell by" date. Example: One HS teacher refused to post grades on the schools computer network because he could not understand how to use the system.  I've found in him the poster child for item 1 of 4 to fix the system:

1) Eliminate tenure. Dead wood clearing is the most effective pathway to freeing up more $$$ for education. Sweet jeepers there's a huge amount of it to clear.

2) Raise Teacher Standards. IMHO raise them so high that you draw talent from private industry and deter those with flimsy "teaching degrees" colleges have churned out.

3) Pay those who exceed those standards accordingly.

4) Fire students. Yes, if Johnny can't sit still in class, he should be booted from it. If you want higher parental involvement, send their kid home for a few days for shiatty behavior. That will get parents motivated to ensure little Johnny gets with the program.

It's tough love time. Not many people like it, but for the small amount of pain today offset by the larger gains of tomorrow, it's well worth it IMHO.

My .02c
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Offline Ready2Downsize

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2018, 07:15:44 PM »
Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule.  https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.   Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.   However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive.   

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.
https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/uploaded/District_Office/Personnel_Services/2017_2018_Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

My daughter works at a charter school in AZ (because of tenture she knew she couldn't get a job here when she graduated at the peak of the bad economy knowing anyone laid off would be first to be rehired and she didn't want to face being a sub for years). AZ is one of the worst paying states (teachers were just in the news for striking). I don't know if this is true at all AZ schools but at hers (and the schools she has worked at before this one which is a total of two others) the teachers are paid based on academic performance of the kids which is based on class test scores. The kids are tested three times a year. Every year she tells me I hope to get the worst underperforming kids I can possibly get in the fall because it's the best chance for my pay to go up. At first she had no problem because the new teachers always get the worst of the worst but there were so many parents requesting her, she ended up getting the best of the best. Still she managed to always hit the goals for max pay raise (not all teachers do). In fact she usually tells me by the second test she got the the best pay raise in the bag already.

It's not really the best system because the teachers have learned to teach for the test. If it's not on the test, the kids will not be taught that subject matter until MAYBE after the third test.

Offline Kings

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2018, 06:29:06 AM »
Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule.  https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.   Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.   However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive.   

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.
https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/uploaded/District_Office/Personnel_Services/2017_2018_Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

My daughter works at a charter school in AZ (because of tenture she knew she couldn't get a job here when she graduated at the peak of the bad economy knowing anyone laid off would be first to be rehired and she didn't want to face being a sub for years). AZ is one of the worst paying states (teachers were just in the news for striking). I don't know if this is true at all AZ schools but at hers (and the schools she has worked at before this one which is a total of two others) the teachers are paid based on academic performance of the kids which is based on class test scores. The kids are tested three times a year. Every year she tells me I hope to get the worst underperforming kids I can possibly get in the fall because it's the best chance for my pay to go up. At first she had no problem because the new teachers always get the worst of the worst but there were so many parents requesting her, she ended up getting the best of the best. Still she managed to always hit the goals for max pay raise (not all teachers do). In fact she usually tells me by the second test she got the the best pay raise in the bag already.

It's not really the best system because the teachers have learned to teach for the test. If it's not on the test, the kids will not be taught that subject matter until MAYBE after the third test.

that's one of the problems with the system today.  we're teaching kids to be test takers and how to memorize things, and not teaching them to be critical thinkers.

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2018, 07:27:46 AM »
He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me. :)

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Offline Liar Loan

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2018, 09:15:01 AM »
He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me. :)

#starmanstyle

I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

Offline momopi

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 AM »
Personally, I have some issues with the lengthy classroom time and academics at expense of life skills.

I think boys are born with instinct to run, jump, touch, explore, fight/compete, etc. as natural learning.  Keeping them locked up in classrooms bound to a desk for excessive lengths of time is unhealthy.  They also need to learn how to deal with losing as most people can be gracious winners but not good losers.

I'd like to see more rural/field programs where kids are taught to swim, fish, shoot (bow/air rifle not firearms), camping/woodcraft, gardening, care for small animals (chicken/rabbit coops at school?) from younger age.  Basics of dissimilar foreign language can also be taught by age 10.  As they get older they should be taught how to patch a tire, do/fold laundry properly, cook, care for larger animals, balance checkbook, turn off water/gas mains at the house, basics of investing, basics of car care, and so on.

It's disturbing to find kids who think fish are naturally shaped like McDonalds fish sandwich patties, or can't eat fish with bones.  Kids need to be taught that animals have eyes, nose, mouth like us, McDonalds chicken nuggets aren't natural and steaks aren't raised at supermarkets.  If you can't handle the thought of raising cattle for meat then you can choose to eat less animal products or go vegetarian.

Hopefully the kids can also be taught to manage their money carefully, start saving early, purchase for longevity/durability, and take good care of their purchases so when they are no longer needed, they can be given or sold to someone else who can make better use of it.  It's preferable to disposable consumer products sent to the recycle bin.

By secondary school kids should be taught that academia is not the only path.  Trade school options, apprenticeships, job skill training can be offered.  Lastly, the kids should be taught to vote with their feet.  If they're not happy living/working in a certain environment, teach them that the world is a big place and they should go find their own niche, even if it means going to the metropolis of Paris or rural village in East Malaysia.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 04:39:17 PM by momopi »

Offline Liar Loan

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2018, 10:34:19 AM »
He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me. :)

#starmanstyle

Wait... Why did you hashtag it #starmanstyle if BTB made the joke?  Now I'm confused.

P.S. Does anybody remember the movie Starman with Jeff Bridges?  It's a great movie.  They also made a TV spinoff not starring Jeff Bridges, but I remember it being pretty good by 80's TV standards.

Offline Burn That Belly

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me. :)

#starmanstyle

Wait... Why did you hashtag it #starmanstyle if BTB made the joke?  Now I'm confused.

P.S. Does anybody remember the movie Starman with Jeff Bridges?  It's a great movie.  They also made a TV spinoff not starring Jeff Bridges, but I remember it being pretty good by 80's TV standards.

Because starman gets pissed off when nobody gives his posts "thanks", that's what he lives for on here.
Member of the 'A' Team. Team Appreciation.

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2018, 12:14:24 PM »
I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

Chippendales was the OG male stripper troupe... without them... there would be no Thunder... no Magic Mike.

How I even know that much is making qwerstripper cringe.

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Offline Burn That Belly

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2018, 12:36:11 PM »
I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

Chippendales was the OG male stripper troupe... without them... there would be no Thunder... no Magic Mike.

How I even know that much is making qwerstripper cringe.

#thanklessoldschoolreferences

It's okay to come out of the closet... once in a while.  ;D
Member of the 'A' Team. Team Appreciation.

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2018, 01:38:32 PM »
I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

Chippendales was the OG male stripper troupe... without them... there would be no Thunder... no Magic Mike.

How I even know that much is making qwerstripper cringe.

#thanklessoldschoolreferences

It's okay to come out of the closet... once in a while.  ;D

I knew you would say that... you're right there with me.

#aussiestyle
Once you go 3-car garage... your junk can never go back.
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Offline StarmanMBA

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2018, 05:16:44 PM »

Because starman gets pissed off when nobody gives his posts "thanks", that's what he lives for on here.

Let me help you yet again, sixth grade mentality boy car collector.  I didn't get "pissed off when nobody (gave) one certain post on child safety any thanks.  I made the salient observation that something THAT important should elicit additional contributions, and after 78 views, nobody had made a single contribution, OR offered thanks for child safety ideas.  What could possibly be more important? Tell the readers here, Sixth Grader.

I  don't "live for" anything you say or don't say.   I state my opinions and try to support them with facts, unlike you.   After pointing out your ignorant spelling errors, and then your ignorant errors of logic, and then your rampant dishonesty, you have only cleaned up your writing, but nothing else.

You and several of your bullying pals never put fingers to keyboards without subtracting from the sum total of human knowledge.  See if you can buck up, huh?  Try, really try.
"There are only two kinds of people, decent and indecent." - Elie Wiesel

« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2018, 01:29:58 pm »
qwerty
Hey StarmanMBA - go fuck yourself :-)

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Offline Burn That Belly

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2018, 05:46:35 PM »
x
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 04:10:09 PM by Burn That Belly »
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Offline fortune11

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Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2018, 06:22:17 PM »
I didn't get "pissed off when nobody (gave) one certain post on child safety any thanks.  I made the salient observation that something THAT important should elicit additional contributions,and after 78 views, nobody had made a single contribution, OR offered thanks for child safety ideas.  What could possibly be more important?

Liberal entitlement. I rest my case.

Sick Burn ...

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