Author Topic: Midterm Elections  (Read 64080 times)

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Offline freedomcm

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2070 on: December 07, 2018, 06:01:02 AM »
"I can't take Tuesday off" It's a holiday, you have the day off. "I forgot to put a stamp on my ballot" - hmmm perhaps voting isn't for you.

So voting is only for the middle/upper class?

How many retail/restaurant/service employees get holidays off?


Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2071 on: December 07, 2018, 06:59:38 AM »
Mail-in ballots don't work for people who can't get the day off to vote (doesn't take a whole day to vote).
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Offline Soylent Green Is People

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2072 on: December 07, 2018, 07:18:37 AM »
Eyephone. Past posts confirm I've always believed a blue wave was coming. Commenting on other races is old ground.

If it helps:

NC is wrong, as is California's ballot harvesting.

It shouldn't take hours to vote. Anywhere.

Gerrymandering by any party is wrong.

Bush still beat Gore even after every vote was counted - 3x by the State of Florida as well as by members of the media post confirmation.

Snape kills Dumbledore.

That hopefully covers everything past and present.


These folks some say might be disenfranchised by changes in the process.... they work 14 hour shifts? Is that legal now? Did I miss something?

Voting timelines can be expanded. Options for 6 AM to 9 PM live voting could be put into place. Cant fit anything within a 15 hour window? Send in an absentee ballot a week before live voting.

This is a question of priorities. Some find it a priority to wait days in Black Friday lines. Others find it a priority to wait hours in a voting line. If you want to vote, and if you want to ensure clean elections, changes have to come to the process - and quickly. The 2020 election season started the day after the midterms.

My .02c
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:30:46 AM by Soylent Green Is People »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2073 on: December 07, 2018, 09:14:50 AM »
Eyephone. Past posts confirm I've always believed a blue wave was coming. Commenting on other races is old ground.

If it helps:

NC is wrong, as is California's ballot harvesting.

It shouldn't take hours to vote. Anywhere.

Gerrymandering by any party is wrong.

Bush still beat Gore even after every vote was counted - 3x by the State of Florida as well as by members of the media post confirmation.

Snape kills Dumbledore.

That hopefully covers everything past and present.


These folks some say might be disenfranchised by changes in the process.... they work 14 hour shifts? Is that legal now? Did I miss something?

Voting timelines can be expanded. Options for 6 AM to 9 PM live voting could be put into place. Cant fit anything within a 15 hour window? Send in an absentee ballot a week before live voting.

This is a question of priorities. Some find it a priority to wait days in Black Friday lines. Others find it a priority to wait hours in a voting line. If you want to vote, and if you want to ensure clean elections, changes have to come to the process - and quickly. The 2020 election season started the day after the midterms.

My .02c

Again..not zero sum.  I am fine with the electoral process as it is.  I do not think there is widespread voter fraud...or even anything close to a problem that needs addressing.   

We are 50 years from an era where minorities were physically, politically, and socially blocked from voting.  The Justice Department had to watch state governments from enacting laws that limits/restricts/hinders/blocks minorities from voting...as soon as that monitoring went away, those states returned to their old tricks.

I will worry about voter fraud when marginally legal efforts to disenfranchise voters stop.

I don't know why you keep equating black friday to voting.   We should be appalled that there is a 4 hour line to vote and try to see why such a line exists.

Offline i1

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2074 on: December 07, 2018, 09:14:59 AM »
NC is wrong, as is California's ballot harvesting.

IMO, a perfect example of the false equivalences and both-sideisms (which fortune points out) that cause truth decay.
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2075 on: December 07, 2018, 09:19:54 AM »
Morons in Cali have been voting for politicians who have done nothing but raise their taxes...hell they re affirmed a gas tax on all uf us just this last election. Why should they be butt hurt about their taxes when they vote on a national election?

The gas tax is peanuts compared to the tax increase to Californians. Also, I find it funny how some GOP based their campaign on the gas tax and loss. They even had almost the same color scheme on their election signs. (Yellow and blue) my gosh lol

How about the idea get better candidates? Also, Trump even mention before that they will lose the house before the election.

Fundamentally, people do not mind paying for more taxes if they believe that the taxes are being well-spent on things that they believe is important. 

Anti-tax people generally believe that the government is inept and that private individuals know what to do with the money better than the government.

While government can be inefficient and wasteful, people are often self-interested, short-sighted, and sometimes just dumb.   At least with government, you can try and fix it.  With people, you can't fix stupid.

Offline Soylent Green Is People

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2076 on: December 07, 2018, 11:12:51 AM »
i1 +1 thanks for the "truth decay" line. Well written. It still doesn't take away from the fact that ballot harvesting - no matter what State it is in - still is a break in the chain of custody. That's a very dangerous thing. Let's agree there was zero fraud in the last election - the mere fact that someone can pick up a ballot and potentially NOT drop it off remains problematic. I'd rather cure this issue now than suffer for it later. It's not a "Left/Right" thing, but an opportunity for fraud.

We're in agreement that long lines are a problem. In our area most of the delay was caused by new voters, unfamiliar with how the machines work. In other areas, it's gerrymandering and intentional voting machine access restriction. That's a huge, yet very solvable problem. Is the solution a single Federal version, or 2 or 3 State suggested solutions to machine and ballot design? I don't know, but clearly something should be done to prevent what went on in Florida this year alone.

Why equate Black Friday to Voting? It's a question of priority. Some people are more than happy to wait days in BF lines, while others complain about waiting 1 hour in a voting line. I'd rather have it the other way around - waiting days to vote for the privilege that it is - and only hours for a 4k TV at a good price. Voting is an honorable thing to do. If it takes some time out of a day to do so - fine. To say it's "too hard, too inconvenient, to difficult to vote" shows how little some think of the privilege of doing so.

Online eyephone

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2077 on: December 07, 2018, 11:44:09 AM »
In response to S0yGreen. I came across an LA Times article that the Republicans accuses fraud after the election when the election register were still counting the mail in ballots.

LA Times article dated 11/15/18. Written by: Michael Finnegan Titled:Republicans Walters and Kim adopt Trump tactic of charging vote fraud with no evidence of wrongdoing

“Two Orange County Republicans facing the prospect of defeat in the Nov. 6 congressional election as final ballots are counted have adopted President Trump’s tactic of making baseless allegations of vote fraud.

Neither GOP Rep. Mimi Walters nor Republican candidate Young Kim has produced evidence to back up their charges that Democrats are trying to steal the election. County registrars of voters supervising the ballot counts said they knew of no one doing anything that would compromise the election’s integrity.

Both Republicans leveled the accusations after they steadily lost ground in the continuing tabulation of tens of thousands of ballots. Walters finished ahead on election night, but has fallen 3,797 votes behind Democrat Katie Porter. Kim is clinging to a 122-vote lead over Democrat Gil Cisneros.
Walters and Kim have joined a growing number of Republicans in Florida and elsewhere who, like Trump, challenge the legitimacy of vote counts when Democrats gain in late tallies. Nonpartisan election watchdogs are appalled.

“The tone has been set at the top,” said Stephen Spaulding, chief of strategy at Common Cause. “I think it’s reckless. It is irresponsible.”Scholars who track the rise and fall of democracies around the globe are also alarmed. Public trust in the validity of free elections is a pillar of democracy, they say, and a political party’s systematic attacks on that faith can be corrosive.
“People need to learn to lose and accept the results and move on to the next campaign,” said Daniel Ziblatt, coauthor of “How Democracies Die.” “If people don’t believe in the legitimacy of elections and start acting that way, then the whole thing can disintegrate very rapidly.”

The Walters and Kim campaigns both declined to comment or provide any evidence to support their allegations.

In California elections, it’s a firmly established pattern that the votes counted last almost always favor Democrats. The growing dominance of mail ballots has made it more pronounced. The most reliably Republican voters — a shrinking share of the state’s electorate — tend to be older white homeowners who send in their ballots before most other Californians do.

On Sunday, when she was still slightly ahead, Walters told supporters in an email that she needed donations to stop Democrats “from overturning the will of the voters.”
“I’m currently up by 1 point, but the Democrats are already preparing for a recount to try and steal this Republican seat after the fact,” Walters wrote.

In another fundraising email, Walters said she needed “to make sure vote tallies aren’t tampered with.”

Neal Kelley, Orange County’s registrar of voters, responded “emphatically no” when asked whether anyone had tried to tamper with any of the ballots.
“We take this responsibility very seriously,” he said. “I certainly do. I have seen no evidence of it.”

The 45th Congressional District that Walters represents in the Irvine and Mission Viejo area is entirely within Orange County. She lives outside the district in Laguna Beach.

Kim, running in the neighboring 39th Congressional District, which straddles Orange, San Bernardino and Los Angeles counties, released a statement alleging that the Los Angeles County registrar had rebuked an unnamed Cisneros operative for “physical ballot tampering,” which is illegal.

Jim Condos, president of the National Assn. of Secretaries of State, said he was disturbed by the rise in unfounded vote fraud allegations.
“Words do matter,” said Condos, the Democratic secretary of state in Vermont. “I think it’s unconscionable and irresponsible to be making accusations and threats without any evidence behind it.”

My comments:
I like the following quote in the article.  “People need to learn to lose and accept the results and move on to the next campaign,” said Daniel Ziblatt, coauthor of “How Democracies Die.” “If people don’t believe in the legitimacy of elections and start acting that way, then the whole thing can disintegrate very rapidly.”
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:51:02 AM by eyephone »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2078 on: December 07, 2018, 11:58:55 AM »
i1 +1 thanks for the "truth decay" line. Well written. It still doesn't take away from the fact that ballot harvesting - no matter what State it is in - still is a break in the chain of custody. That's a very dangerous thing. Let's agree there was zero fraud in the last election - the mere fact that someone can pick up a ballot and potentially NOT drop it off remains problematic. I'd rather cure this issue now than suffer for it later. It's not a "Left/Right" thing, but an opportunity for fraud.

We're in agreement that long lines are a problem. In our area most of the delay was caused by new voters, unfamiliar with how the machines work. In other areas, it's gerrymandering and intentional voting machine access restriction. That's a huge, yet very solvable problem. Is the solution a single Federal version, or 2 or 3 State suggested solutions to machine and ballot design? I don't know, but clearly something should be done to prevent what went on in Florida this year alone.

Why equate Black Friday to Voting? It's a question of priority. Some people are more than happy to wait days in BF lines, while others complain about waiting 1 hour in a voting line. I'd rather have it the other way around - waiting days to vote for the privilege that it is - and only hours for a 4k TV at a good price. Voting is an honorable thing to do. If it takes some time out of a day to do so - fine. To say it's "too hard, too inconvenient, to difficult to vote" shows how little some think of the privilege of doing so.

Except we have a vested interest in having people vote so we should find way to encourage...not just throw up our hands.   Voting is like vaccination...you don't just throw up your hands if people choose not to vaccinate.

Offline fortune11

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2079 on: December 07, 2018, 12:02:45 PM »
i1 +1 thanks for the "truth decay" line. Well written. It still doesn't take away from the fact that ballot harvesting - no matter what State it is in - still is a break in the chain of custody. That's a very dangerous thing. Let's agree there was zero fraud in the last election - the mere fact that someone can pick up a ballot and potentially NOT drop it off remains problematic. I'd rather cure this issue now than suffer for it later. It's not a "Left/Right" thing, but an opportunity for fraud.

We're in agreement that long lines are a problem. In our area most of the delay was caused by new voters, unfamiliar with how the machines work. In other areas, it's gerrymandering and intentional voting machine access restriction. That's a huge, yet very solvable problem. Is the solution a single Federal version, or 2 or 3 State suggested solutions to machine and ballot design? I don't know, but clearly something should be done to prevent what went on in Florida this year alone.

Why equate Black Friday to Voting? It's a question of priority. Some people are more than happy to wait days in BF lines, while others complain about waiting 1 hour in a voting line. I'd rather have it the other way around - waiting days to vote for the privilege that it is - and only hours for a 4k TV at a good price. Voting is an honorable thing to do. If it takes some time out of a day to do so - fine. To say it's "too hard, too inconvenient, to difficult to vote" shows how little some think of the privilege of doing so.

Except we have a vested interest in having people vote so we should find way to encourage...not just throw up our hands.   Voting is like vaccination...you don't just throw up your hands if people choose not to vaccinate.

Great quote !

Offline Soylent Green Is People

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2080 on: December 07, 2018, 12:09:31 PM »
Eyephone - that LA Times article isn't 1/2 as dammning as the takedown of the Gateway Pundit story:

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/11/bad-math-leads-to-bogus-voter-fraud-claim/

The chain of custody issue remains a portal of opportunity for partisan shenanigans. The practice needs to end.

IrvineCommuter - Actually we do throw up are hands when people don't want to vaccinate. There are parental opt-out laws as well as home schooling for those who hide from vaccination. We don't force vaccination, but if it were me, I'd make the opt out so heinous that child vaccination wouldn't be an issue. Parental vaccination is another subject. I'd have a tough time giving up my right to NOT have a flu shot. Measles/Mumps/Whooping Cough has pretty high prevention levels, but the flu shot is in the 30% range and not really something I'm wanting to risk... wow.... is this getting off topic.

We're practically on the same side, only expressing it in different measures. We both want access (national holiday for voting, retaining mail in and absentee ballots) however I'm wanting to tighten up some of the opportunities for fraud. That's hardly a big ask.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2081 on: December 07, 2018, 12:11:43 PM »
Eyephone - that LA Times article isn't 1/2 as dammning as the takedown of the Gateway Pundit story:

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/11/bad-math-leads-to-bogus-voter-fraud-claim/

The chain of custody issue remains a portal of opportunity for partisan shenanigans. The practice needs to end.

IrvineCommuter - Actually we do throw up are hands when people don't want to vaccinate. There are parental opt-out laws as well as home schooling for those who hide from vaccination. We don't force vaccination, but if it were me, I'd make the opt out so heinous that child vaccination wouldn't be an issue. Parental vaccination is another subject. I'd have a tough time giving up my right to NOT have a flu shot. Measles/Mumps/Whooping Cough has pretty high prevention levels, but the flu shot is in the 30% range and not really something I'm wanting to risk... wow.... is this getting off topic.

We're practically on the same side, only expressing it in different measures. We both want access (national holiday for voting, retaining mail in and absentee ballots) however I'm wanting to tighten up some of the opportunities for fraud. That's hardly a big ask.

I rather work on the more serious problem...you may want to feel better from the cold but let's deal with the clogged arteries first.

Offline Liar Loan

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2082 on: December 07, 2018, 01:51:09 PM »
"I can't take Tuesday off" It's a holiday, you have the day off. "I forgot to put a stamp on my ballot" - hmmm perhaps voting isn't for you.

So voting is only for the middle/upper class?

How many retail/restaurant/service employees get holidays off?

Everybody already has the legal right to leave work in order to vote.  It's just that most people choose not to.

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Online eyephone

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Re: Midterm Elections
« Reply #2083 on: December 07, 2018, 03:37:07 PM »
Instead of blaming the candidate, the party, the candidate’s record, the message or lack of message they cry fraud.

Now I will give my analysis on select house races.

 

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