Thanks FCC!

For N00bs like me on the NN subject, since these internet rules were changed in 2015 and there didn't seem to be an issue from 1992 to 2015, how will this reversion to pre-2015 rules will be an absolute certain detriment to web use?
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
For N00bs like me on the NN subject, since these internet rules were changed in 2015 and there didn't seem to be an issue from 1992 to 2015, how will this reversion to pre-2015 rules will be an absolute certain detriment to web use?

2015 rules were in place as a result of a SC decisions...the FCC had NN rules in place prior to that.

Last time, NN was going to be taken away.

November 6, 2005

Ed Whitacre, who became CEO of AT&T after it merged with SBC, stoked the Net neutrality debate when he complained in an interview with BusinessWeek that companies like Google and Yahoo were freeloaders on his company's infrastructure.

"Now what they would like do is use my pipes for free, but I ain't going to let them do that because we have spent this capital and we have to have a return on it," Whitacre told the magazine.

and

October 19, 2007

After months of speculation, an Associated Press investigative report found that Comcast, the largest cable company in the US, had been blocking or severely delaying traffic using the BitTorrent file-sharing protocol on its network. BitTorrent is used to distribute massive data files, such as high-definition video. The way the protocol works is that rather than downloading a file from a single source server, the BitTorrent protocol allows users to join a "swarm" of hosts to upload to or download from each other simultaneously. While there are legitimate uses for BitTorrent, it has often been associated with the illegal distribution of copyrighted movies and music. In the early and mid-2000s, the use of the technology flooded some networks. As of November 2004, it was believed that BitTorrent traffic was responsible for 35 percent of all Internet traffic. After the AP story was published, consumer advocates accused Comcast of violating the FCC's Open Internet principles. Comcast claimed it was merely trying to protect its network from being crippled by one type of traffic. The FCC launched an investigation.
https://www.cnet.com/news/net-neutrality-from-there-to-here/

Also why would you think that Comcast would not prioritize its own streaming service over Netflix? 

I mean if there was only one mortgage broker in your area and that broker was also a mortgage provider...I wonder who will get processing priority?
 
Thanks IC for the insight.

I see the argument, but I don't see the impact. There are 4 wireless companies (Verizon, ATT, Sprint, and T-Mobile) The services and products I've gotten from one of these companies since 1985 (my 1st cell phone) hasn't really impacted my ability to obtain services and products through them or elsewhere. Quite a bit has changed from 1985 forward during both times of heavy to near zero regulation. This in no way means the future won't be different now that these changes are on their way. It seems like a great deal of conjecture frankly on both sides of the NN issue. We will see.

My .02c
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
Thanks IC for the insight.

I see the argument, but I don't see the impact. There are 4 wireless companies (Verizon, ATT, Sprint, and T-Mobile) The services and products I've gotten from one of these companies since 1985 (my 1st cell phone) hasn't really impacted my ability to obtain services and products through them or elsewhere. Quite a bit has changed from 1985 forward during both times of heavy to near zero regulation. This in no way means the future won't be different now that these changes are on their way. It seems like a great deal of conjecture frankly on both sides of the NN issue. We will see.

My .02c

The fact that you have not felt much impact is a testament that net neutrality rules/regulations work and have worked very well.  I think our recent roller coaster ride with the mortgage and banking industry can provide good context and history.

There is a reason why the large ISP providers are the only ones fighting against NN.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
I think our recent roller coaster ride with the mortgage and banking industry can provide good context and history.

This isn't a good example.  There were 7 Federal agencies and 51 state agencies, including D.C., regulating mortgages prior to the crash.
 
Amen. That's a terrible analogy.

All I was saying is that over 32 years of heavy regulation and no regulation of telecoms, I've not experience any reduction in services or products. What then assures a skeptical public that this NN fight is only much ado about nothing?

I know some love to say "oh...it's the BIG EVIL Corporations fighting for repeal" yet leave out the BIG EVIL Corporations fighting to retain the rules. Which BIG EVIL corporation then has the little guys better interests at heart? I'd argue the case for "none of the above" today.

My .02c
 
I think we've seen a pretty good foreshadowing of how non-net neutrality will look with the experience we've all had with TV providers and the public pissing matches between studios and providers over channels and costs.

You see regularly with the pissing matches between, Apple, Google and Amazon.  Really, you need to sideload a youtube app of use the silk browser on the website on the new Amazon Fire to get Youtube.

I currently have a choice between AT&T and TWC.  Previously, it was just TWC for anything beyond DSL.  That is if you consider that a choice.

Hmmm, I wonder if AT&T is going try and demand payment from Amazon to provide traffic prioritization to their video and music offerings?
 
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter said:
I think our recent roller coaster ride with the mortgage and banking industry can provide good context and history.

This isn't a good example.  There were 7 Federal agencies and 51 state agencies, including D.C., regulating mortgages prior to the crash.

Enforcing what regulations and rules?  Most of the protections were striped away and they were largely using rules and regulations from the 1930s.
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
Amen. That's a terrible analogy.

All I was saying is that over 32 years of heavy regulation and no regulation of telecoms, I've not experience any reduction in services or products. What then assures a skeptical public that this NN fight is only much ado about nothing?

I know some love to say "oh...it's the BIG EVIL Corporations fighting for repeal" yet leave out the BIG EVIL Corporations fighting to retain the rules. Which BIG EVIL corporation then has the little guys better interests at heart? I'd argue the case for "none of the above" today.

My .02c

Certain times interests align...content providers and consumers are on the same side on this.
 
One perspective: Certain times interests align...content providers and consumers are on the same side on this.

Another perspective: Certain times interests align...(Big Evil Corporations) content providers and ( for the most part highly uninformed ) consumers are on the same side on this. I count myself among the highly uniformed BTW, thus the conversation.

Nice info NSR.

Isn't the "anti-NN" simply device and hotspot swapping? Example. We can't get Amazon Prime via Cox cable or internet to view through our Apple TV, but we can stream Amazon Prime shows on an iPhone using Verizon Wi-Fi by either mirroring on the Apple TV or via the Samsung TV's various access points.

Yes, it takes a great number of devices and ISP/Cable/Phone companies to do this, but when hasn't it? Is this arrangement then at the mercy of or the solution to NN?

My .02c
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
Nice info NSR.

Isn't the "anti-NN" simply device and hotspot swapping? Example. We can't get Amazon Prime via Cox cable or internet to view through our Apple TV, but we can stream Amazon Prime shows on an iPhone using Verizon Wi-Fi by either mirroring on the Apple TV or via the Samsung TV's various access points.

Yes, it takes a great number of devices and ISP/Cable/Phone companies to do this, but when hasn't it? Is this arrangement then at the mercy of or the solution to NN?

My .02c

It's just has to do with ISPs...they control the lanes and thus controls the speed.  Aside from the anti-competitive nature, NN also allows corporations to censor messages.  For example:
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/internet-censorship-is-advancing-under-trump/

And:
https://www.techinasia.com/china-telecom-throttling-access-international-websites-bad-news-startups

Edit:

Content is what consumers want...content providers want to provide it to consumers as fast as possible.  Their interests align in this case, corporations or not.   

Like I said, if the sole mortgage broker is also a mortgage provider, do you think it benefits the consumer?

Also..it's not as straightforward as blocking a site.  It's more about throttling.  For example, you go to YT and it downloads at 1 mps but if you go to Comcast's video streaming site...it downloads at 100 mps. 

Google and Netflix are probably not going to be affected as much cause they are so well known and have resources but a startup trying to compete would have to pay for the fast lane so that they can stay competitive.  Not to mention nonprofits and schools:
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/12/5702...utrality-could-affect-schools-internet-access

This is not a sufficient answer:

MCEVERS: Have broadband companies responded to your criticism, to what you're saying?

CULATTA: You know, generally, the response is, don't worry, don't worry; we're, you know - we're not going to do anything. But the catch at the end of the day is, who are those companies answering to, right? They're not answering to my kids' teacher in their school. They're answering to shareholders.

Remember how ISPs said no data caps???!!!  They all have data caps now.
 
Both. 

You want to cast from your iPhone to your chromecast on the TV, LOL.  Best load some third party tool.  What to screeshare from your youtube to your firestick, LOL, nope.

Those three, Apple, Google and Amazon are prime examples of the kind of proprietary and closed platforms they're building.  They've been leaving side doors and back doors, but they're making more painful and intentionally not playing together at the expense of the consumer. 

Your ISP, can now play the same game.  Except your ISP, is quite literally, your most used freeway.  Your ISP can now restrict one of the lanes to GM vehicles only if they strike a deal with GM, or restrict GM vehicles to a right lane only.  Or sorry Tesla (Netflix) isn't even allowed on the street.  Or maybe, you just have to by the special Tesla street pass.

Or Tesla gets the carpool sticker....  but Chevy Bolts don't. or Nissans....


And that's all it's really about.  The ISP can now mess with all the major content providers and say pay us or your traffic gets restricted to the right lane only.

And then turn around and say the same thing to the consumer, you can sit regular 405 rush hour traffic or you can pay for the toll lane.  Except the ISP, is CalTrans and shutdowns lanes  essentially force your choice.
 
The repeal of NN will be a huge job engine as now the Service Providers will have financial incentive to invest in their networks, and the downstream impact to the hardware and software companies that supply the platforms that power their networks will experience a new era of growth. Why would Broadcom invest R&D to implement advance features in new silicon if there is no market for those features due to onerous federal regulation?

Don' t drink the Kool-Aid - existing NN regulatory environment has been a drag on the economy.
 
OCtoSV said:
The repeal of NN will be a huge job engine as now the Service Providers will have financial incentive to invest in their networks, and the downstream impact to the hardware and software companies that supply the platforms that power their networks will experience a new era of growth. Why would Broadcom invest R&D to implement advance features in new silicon if there is no market for those features due to onerous federal regulation?

Don' t drink the Kool-Aid - existing NN regulatory environment has been a drag on the economy.

Because ISP will have no incentives to invest in their networks after NN.  They have a virtual monopoly and providing network does not make money...providing and selling content do.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...t-neutrality-will-harm-innovation-in-america/

If the rules are rolled back, more of these arrangements are likely to appear. ISPs will also start offering paid prioritization. Some of these ?fast lane? deals might not lead to higher prices for consumers. But entrepreneurs are rightly concerned that large companies will spend heavily to dominate fast-lane access, making it harder for some startups, such as bandwidth-hungry mobile video companies, to challenge them. ?Milliseconds of difference can leave you at a disadvantage when potential customers are evaluating your product,? explains Tom Lee, the head of policy at Mapbox, a location data platform for mobile and Web applications.

Even the very biggest startups could suffer. In an IPO filing published earlier this year, Snap warned that weakening or ending net neutrality would hurt its business if ISPs limited access to it or favored its rivals (see ?Why Snap Is Worried About Net Neutrality?). Young companies that pay up for higher speeds would have to pass those costs on to consumers, making it harder to compete with bigger players.

Big ISPs say they?re committed to keeping a level playing field, but history and economic realism suggest they won?t. AT&T, for instance, blocked Skype and other Internet calling services on iPhones on its network until 2009. In many markets in America, there are still only one or two high-speed broadband providers. The lack of competition means there?s little to deter them from discriminating against services that pose a threat to their own offerings.
 
OCtoSV said:
The repeal of NN will be a huge job engine as now the Service Providers will have financial incentive to invest in their networks, and the downstream impact to the hardware and software companies that supply the platforms that power their networks will experience a new era of growth. Why would Broadcom invest R&D to implement advance features in new silicon if there is no market for those features due to onerous federal regulation?

Don' t drink the Kool-Aid - existing NN regulatory environment has been a drag on the economy.

Because all those advanced features still are needed  even with net neutrality.  QoS allows the management of the network to insure all services have adequate bandwidth.  QoS to throttle individual content sites is not a job engine and frankly is 1990s technology.

The problem with investment isn't the backbone network, it's the last mile network.

Hence, I have two providers.  And really, that's only recently.  Before that it was one.
 
Honestly this is more trickle down economics at play...if you let the corporations and rich people do whatever they want...they will help the little people. 

They haven't historically and they won't now.  I am not sure why I would trust Cox to work in my best interest when it is effectively my only ISP.

Corporations are contractually and legally bound to look out for their own interests.  Absolutely no reason for Cox to expand their network at the expense of losing their local monopolies.
 
There are two issues at hand: data prioritization and privacy.

Without NetNeutrality, your ISP can now prioritize some data over others. This may not be a bad thing if you (and/or a content provider) is willing to pay for it. For example, the ISP can argue that since Netflix burdens its network they need to pay X amount per GB of traffic or get throttled. If they pay, the cost gets passed to the user but ultimately you'd get the bandwidth you want. Others (mostly smaller ventures) may not have the resources to pay for the premium lane. I would expect some of the free streaming services (KODI, CrunchyRoll, etc) to be throttled and eventually be out of business.

As far as privacy goes, now ISPs are allowed to sell, share or otherwise use your browsing history and app usage. We sort of already do some of that when we use Google products, but this would be for basically EVERYTHING. You can overcome some of this by going through a VPN but you just shift your trust and hope the VPN provider doesn't abuse your browsing/streaming info.

Prior to the FCC vote, all data had to be treated equally (not throttling of Netflix, for example) and none of your browsing patterns could be sold/shared/exploited unless you explicitly allowed the ISP to do so.

This will not break the internet but it would be similar to using AOL back in the day (for those who remember) instead of going through the open internet.
 
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