Author Topic: Obamacare on Life Support article  (Read 54962 times)

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Offline eyephone

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Obamacare on Life Support article
« on: December 10, 2015, 07:43:23 AM »
Article written by Edward Morrissey, The Fiscal Times

"Democrats gained the political muscle to push the Affordable Care Act (ACA) through Congress on three basic arguments.

First, they argued that the United States had too many uninsured people, with estimates ranging from 30 million to 45 million.

Second, the rise in costs for health care outstripped inflation, and the market required an intervention that would bend the cost curve downward.

Third, Democrats claimed that insurance companies made too much profit and shorted most consumers on care, while those with generous health plans – so-called “Cadillac plans” – drove up utilization rates and costs for everyone else.

So let’s recap. Obamacare has depressed job growth, costs are escalating at a higher rate, barely a dent has been made in the numbers of uninsured, and insurers are either exiting the markets or failing altogether. Under any other circumstances, a program that failed on its promises so badly would have all sides moving quickly to repeal it and work on a replacement. Don’t bet on that outcome from this White House and its dwindling number of Democratic supporters on Capitol Hill. They will surely try to sell us the illusion of competence and success.

source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-condition-gone-critical-life-113000762.html

My opinion: In my opinion Obamacare is a joke.

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 08:59:00 AM »
The one thing I hear is that insurers are struggling because they are not seeing a significant increase in subscribers but a huge increase in usage rate.

That's something I said might happen on one of these Obamacare threads.

I'm waiting for Irvinecommuter to say Obamacare is awesome.
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 09:01:16 AM »
It's not awesome...it's just better than what we had before which was nothing. 

People have been calling for the end of Obamacare for awhile...all the dire predictions were pretty much wrong.

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 09:07:40 AM »
It's not awesome...it's just better than what we had before which was nothing. 
Nothing is a fallacy. If you had no insurance and you needed treatment you could get it.

And now even under Obamacare, people who can't afford it won't get it so what is better?
Quote
...all the dire predictions were pretty much wrong.
You probably didn't read the article because you responded so quickly. It points out how some predictions were right.

Not sure if your work provides medical for you but almost everyone I've talked to has had an increase in their insurance premiums (including our own). That alone is a fail.
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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 09:16:07 AM »
Quote
Nothing is a fallacy. If you had no insurance and you needed treatment you could get it.

And now even under Obamacare, people who can't afford it won't get it so what is better?

Except you don't get preventative care and let conditions fester until they get really bad.  Then you go to the emergency room...get bill an enormous amount and either stay in debt forever or declare BK.  Meanwhile, the hospital puts that bill on those who have insurance.  So if you have insurance under the old system, you're paying for the uninsured.

Of course, it's not perfect but there are significantly more people who have insurance than before, which is a good thing.  Personally, I would want a single payer plan but hey that's communism.

Quote
You probably didn't read the article because you responded so quickly. It points out how some predictions were right.

Not sure if your work provides medical for you but almost everyone I've talked to has had an increase in their insurance premiums (including our own). That alone is a fail.

I actually read the article and others like it.  I can send you tons of articles refuting the claims.

You would be correct except for 1) insurance premium has been going up for the last 15 years...dramatically higher before Obamacare and 2) what you pay in your group in based entirely upon your group...that's why bigger companies get better rates...better spread of risk.  If your premium went up, it is likely because your coworkers got sick or had a baby.

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 09:22:32 AM »
You would be correct except for 1) insurance premium has been going up for the last 15 years...dramatically higher before Obamacare and 2) what you pay in your group in based entirely upon your group...that's why bigger companies get better rates...better spread of risk.  If your premium went up, it is likely because your coworkers got sick or had a baby.
We see what we want to see.

The increases are higher leading up to and after Obamacare more than before it.

You always use that coworker got sick or had a baby argument to explain rate increases but that can't be true everywhere.

Show me data that increases have been "dramatically higher" than before Obamacare.
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Offline nosuchreality

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 09:24:49 AM »
Obamacare is like a poorly thought out low fat diet where you snack regularly on reduced fat Oreos

Right premise, poor execution.

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 09:35:43 AM »
You would be correct except for 1) insurance premium has been going up for the last 15 years...dramatically higher before Obamacare and 2) what you pay in your group in based entirely upon your group...that's why bigger companies get better rates...better spread of risk.  If your premium went up, it is likely because your coworkers got sick or had a baby.
We see what we want to see.

The increases are higher leading up to and after Obamacare more than before it.

You always use that coworker got sick or had a baby argument to explain rate increases but that can't be true everywhere.

Show me data that increases have been "dramatically higher" than before Obamacare.


We see what we want to see?  Facts are not subjective.

You can wade through this yourself but the chart is informative

http://www.cheatsheet.com/politics/5-obamacare-myths-debunked.html/?a=viewall

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/244816-poll-81-percent-satisfied-with-obamacare-plans

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/blog/2014/dec/zero-inflation-nationwide-for-marketplace-premiums

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/04/health-plans-had-big-premium-hikes-before-obamacare.html

Obamacare also implement a number of thing such as:

1) no denial based upon pre-existing conditions, which allowed insurance company to weed out the "sick" or deny coverage later claiming a lack of disclosure.

2) allowing kids to staying parents healthcare plans until 26.

3) eliminating lifetime expense caps.

It also implemented healthcare reform that has lowering healthcare costs and readmission rates.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/03/23/5-numbers-to-know-for-obamacares-5-year-anniversary
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 09:43:06 AM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 09:38:36 AM »
Quote
Nothing is a fallacy. If you had no insurance and you needed treatment you could get it.

And now even under Obamacare, people who can't afford it won't get it so what is better?

Except you don't get preventative care and let conditions fester until they get really bad.  Then you go to the emergency room...get bill an enormous amount and either stay in debt forever or declare BK.  Meanwhile, the hospital puts that bill on those who have insurance.  So if you have insurance under the old system, you're paying for the uninsured.
There are two sides to this. The high usage rates speaks to the fact that people who don't need to see the doctor now will (like for flus or colds that they can take care of themselves) thus taxing the system.

And this high usage rate is paid for by who? Same difference to me.
Quote
Of course, it's not perfect but there are significantly more people who have insurance than before, which is a good thing.
From the article:
Quote
The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid (CMS) published a study on Obamacare’s impact on costs and on reducing the numbers of uninsured--and it fails on both counts. The CBO estimated after the passage of Obamacare that the number of uninsured would drop 19 million by 2014 from a 2010 benchmark. Instead, it has only dropped 12.6 million. As Avik Roy points out at Forbes , the 2010 level of uninsured was artificially high due to the impact of the Great Recession. Using 2008 as a benchmark, the number of uninsured has dropped by only 6.7 million.

“In other words,” Roy writes, “all of the disruption, spending, taxation, and premium hikes in Obamacare has only reduced the percentage of U.S. residents without health insurance by 2.7 percent, from 13.9 percent to 11.1 percent: a remarkably small reduction, and far lower than what the law was supposed to achieve.”
I guess you have numbers that refute this?
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Offline morekaos

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 09:45:41 AM »
I've said this for years. This was a planned disaster, designed to fail so implementation of single payer becomes the only option....check mate

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Offline peppy

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 09:47:07 AM »
Article written by Edward Morrissey, The Fiscal Times

"Democrats gained the political muscle to push the Affordable Care Act (ACA) through Congress on three basic arguments.

First, they argued that the United States had too many uninsured people, with estimates ranging from 30 million to 45 million.

Second, the rise in costs for health care outstripped inflation, and the market required an intervention that would bend the cost curve downward.

Third, Democrats claimed that insurance companies made too much profit and shorted most consumers on care, while those with generous health plans – so-called “Cadillac plans” – drove up utilization rates and costs for everyone else.

So let’s recap. Obamacare has depressed job growth, costs are escalating at a higher rate, barely a dent has been made in the numbers of uninsured, and insurers are either exiting the markets or failing altogether. Under any other circumstances, a program that failed on its promises so badly would have all sides moving quickly to repeal it and work on a replacement. Don’t bet on that outcome from this White House and its dwindling number of Democratic supporters on Capitol Hill. They will surely try to sell us the illusion of competence and success.

source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-condition-gone-critical-life-113000762.html

My opinion: In my opinion Obamacare is a joke.

Conservative blogger writes about how Obamacare sucks. What else is new? How about 1 million new enrollments this year?

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 09:50:24 AM »
IHO:

Why is the benchmark 2008?  A lot of people lost jobs after 2008...a lot of employers also cut or reduce healthcare coverage during the Great Recession.  Those people actually don't have healthcare and there is nothing to indicate that they would get it back even if they are employed.

Quote
For the first time in more than 50 years of surveys, the CDC on Wednesday reported that more than 90% of Americans — 90.8% of us, to be specific — have health insurance.

Until now, no major survey had ever found that the uninsured rate in America has hit single digits.

The data comes from the National Health Interview Survey, which the CDC and the Census Bureau have been conducting for more than 50 years. The questions have sometimes changed, but until this year, the answers haven’t: More than 10% of respondents, and sometimes as many as 18% of Americans, have reported that they’ve been uninsured.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/08/12/for-first-time-americas-uninsured-rate-is-below-10/

A great deal of uninsured also has to do with the fact that Republican states won't take Medicaid Expansion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uninsured-rate-states-obamacare_55c7e3f9e4b0f1cbf1e561f7

Quote
The consequences of those choices are clear in the Gallup findings: States that set up exchanges or collaborated with the federal government and also expanded Medicaid saw a much bigger drop in the share of residents without health insurance.

In the 22 states that had done both things by Dec. 31, the uninsured rate declined by 44 percent, and now is 8.9 percent. In states that did neither, the drop was 28 percent, and the uninsured rate is currently 13.4 percent. Collectively, the 28 states that are resisting the Affordable Care Act already had higher uninsured rates prior to the law's enactment than the 22 that have accepted it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uninsured-rate-states-obamacare_55c7e3f9e4b0f1cbf1e561f7

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 09:51:31 AM »
I've said this for years. This was a planned disaster, designed to fail so implementation of single payer becomes the only option....check mate

Obamacare was the GOP alternative to Single Payer...it's what Romney implemented in Mass. 

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 09:52:33 AM »
We see what we want to see?  Facts are not subjective.

You can wade through this yourself but the chart is informative

http://www.cheatsheet.com/politics/5-obamacare-myths-debunked.html/?a=viewall

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/244816-poll-81-percent-satisfied-with-obamacare-plans

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/blog/2014/dec/zero-inflation-nationwide-for-marketplace-premiums

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/04/health-plans-had-big-premium-hikes-before-obamacare.html

Obamacare also implement a number of thing such as:

1) no denial based upon pre-existing conditions, which allowed insurance company to weed out the "sick" or deny coverage later claiming a lack of disclosure.

2) allowing kids to staying parents healthcare plans until 26.

3) eliminating lifetime expense caps.

It also implemented healthcare reform that has lowering healthcare costs and readmission rates.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/03/23/5-numbers-to-know-for-obamacares-5-year-anniversary
Some of your articles actually make your case weaker.

1 and 2 are based on polls, surveys and opinions (#1 is behind a subscription wall so I can't verify sources, other than seeing the chart based on only 1 healthcare provider, Kaiser). #2 uses data from #3 (Common Wealth Fund) and #3 claims there have been no increases which is contrary to most other data I have seen (and you should try to use different sources if you want to prove a point). #4 confirms what I said, that rates increased leading up to Obamacare because insurances were preparing for what was coming.

I've worked in the healthcare insurance industry, I know the games they play. Do you really think ACA is going to cost less for us? Forget just the premiums cost, there are also the additional taxes. All for what? A 2.7% reduction in uninsured?
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: Obamacare on Life Support article
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 09:53:37 AM »
Quote
Nothing is a fallacy. If you had no insurance and you needed treatment you could get it.

And now even under Obamacare, people who can't afford it won't get it so what is better?

Except you don't get preventative care and let conditions fester until they get really bad.  Then you go to the emergency room...get bill an enormous amount and either stay in debt forever or declare BK.  Meanwhile, the hospital puts that bill on those who have insurance.  So if you have insurance under the old system, you're paying for the uninsured.
There are two sides to this. The high usage rates speaks to the fact that people who don't need to see the doctor now will (like for flus or colds that they can take care of themselves) thus taxing the system.

And this high usage rate is paid for by who? Same difference to me.


Except you have a healthier population as a whole who gets preventative care rather than emergency care...it's much cheaper on the system and creates a healthier/happier population.

 

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