Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes, I am Christian
18 (45%)
Yes, I am a non-Christian
3 (7.5%)
Yes, but I am non-religious
2 (5%)
No, but I believe in a higher power
6 (15%)
No, not at all
11 (27.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: God?  (Read 30776 times)

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #450 on: October 17, 2019, 03:07:32 PM »
Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You are missing my point. Not once did I say Jesus was lying or that he and God disagreed. What I did say is that it's possible that when it comes to final judgement, God may change his mind, and Jesus would agree with him.

That's neither a Christian or Jewish perspective... that's a "love all people" one.

God may change his mind? Wow, that's certainly not a Christian theology nor a love. Love is real when it's being kept. What Jesus said is what God said. What God said is never going to change. That is the REAL LOVE that His promise is being kept. Seriously, how did you come to such conclusion?


Why not? Anyone can change their mind. Or maybe we don't understand him enough to know what he will truly do when it comes down to it. Why are you so absolute? If God says something contrary to what he said previously, will you tell him he can't do that? Will your head explode?

So you believe that every person who does not believe in Jesus will not be saved. Does that include infants, mentally ill, or anyone who was never taught about Jesus?

You are very judgy.. that's not Christian-like either. :)
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #451 on: October 17, 2019, 03:14:38 PM »
Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You are missing my point. Not once did I say Jesus was lying or that he and God disagreed. What I did say is that it's possible that when it comes to final judgement, God may change his mind, and Jesus would agree with him.

That's neither a Christian or Jewish perspective... that's a "love all people" one.

God may change his mind? Wow, that's certainly not a Christian theology nor a love. Love is real when it's being kept. What Jesus said is what God said. What God said is never going to change. That is the REAL LOVE that His promise is being kept. Seriously, how did you come to such conclusion?


Why not? Anyone can change their mind. Or maybe we don't understand him enough to know what he will truly do when it comes down to it. Why are you so absolute? If God says something contrary to what he said previously, will you tell him he can't do that? Will your head explode?

So you believe that every person who does not believe in Jesus will not be saved. Does that include infants, mentally ill, or anyone who was never taught about Jesus?

You are very judgy.. that's not Christian-like either. :)

Before I get into all details, let me ask you this question which might refresh your thoughts.

If there was a Judge who pardons everyone who committed murders and lets them go free, would you think of that Judge as a forgiving and loving judge? Or would you say he/she is more like someone who can’t do the job right?

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #452 on: October 17, 2019, 03:16:58 PM »
That's not the same scenario. Try again and I'll answer if it's comparable.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #453 on: October 17, 2019, 03:25:37 PM »
That's not the same scenario. Try again and I'll answer if it's comparable.
It is.
But you don't want to admit it is.
Or you don't know it really is.
I really wish it's the latter.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #454 on: October 17, 2019, 03:44:53 PM »
Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You are missing my point. Not once did I say Jesus was lying or that he and God disagreed. What I did say is that it's possible that when it comes to final judgement, God may change his mind, and Jesus would agree with him.

That's neither a Christian or Jewish perspective... that's a "love all people" one.

God may change his mind? Wow, that's certainly not a Christian theology nor a love. Love is real when it's being kept. What Jesus said is what God said. What God said is never going to change. That is the REAL LOVE that His promise is being kept. Seriously, how did you come to such conclusion?


Why not? Anyone can change their mind. Or maybe we don't understand him enough to know what he will truly do when it comes down to it. Why are you so absolute? If God says something contrary to what he said previously, will you tell him he can't do that? Will your head explode?

So you believe that every person who does not believe in Jesus will not be saved. Does that include infants, mentally ill, or anyone who was never taught about Jesus?

You are very judgy.. that's not Christian-like either. :)

Here is one of the definitions of God:
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? - Numbers 23:19

I already have covered previously of those infants, mentally ill and people who never heard about Jesus. But assuming you don't remember, here you go.

Infants who die early are saved. It is mentioned in the Bible when David's infant died. God also defends those who are weak. Someone who never heard about Jesus but are exposed to the goodness and those who admit their sinful nature before the Creator are also most likely saved. Job is one example in the Bible.

As I've mentioned before, there are many people who do "good" things like donating large sums of money to the poor and dedicate their lives for others and etc. while they don't believe in God or Jesus at all. These people are NOT saved UNLESS they admit their goodness comes from God alone and not themselves. Those who admit so, God will surely expose Jesus to them somewhere sometime in their life. Remember, God does not forsake those who seek Him. It's always the heart issue, my friend.

As for the Judge example I was asking, it's really referencing God. God is God not only because He keeps His words but also because He is perfectly holy. Perfectly holy means He has the perfect standard to bear with anyone. Since He is the loving Judge, He does want to forgive everyone. So He gave His Son for everyone. Now if you don't believe even after seeing His Son getting everyone's due judgment by dying in place of you, God has to bring due judgment everyone deserves eventually. BUT He is still waiting and waiting and waiting all these 2019+ years. 

Offline samuroo

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Re: God?
« Reply #455 on: October 17, 2019, 04:08:13 PM »
Can God change his mind? No. We change our minds when we're provided with new information. There is no such thing as information that is new to God.
Is it possible that non-Christians can make it to heaven? Not counting children who are too young to make an informed decision, the Bible says no. For me, I have to go by that. But there's a part of me that hopes that God in his grace and mercy will somehow find others "worthy." There is no way for me to know the mind of God. But if I have compassion and love for non-Christians, then how much greater is God's?

Catholics have levels of sin. Christians aren't supposed to (but too often act like it). Even the smallest sin will keep you out of Heaven without Christ. Yet, after a true and sincere repentance, we all continue to sin. But post-redemption sinning no longer has the risk of rescinding our ticket, but I believe it will affect the rewards we receive. I believe that suicide falls into this latter category. Again, there is no way for us to even begin to surmise at what God's view is on the effects of mental illness. I doubt it's as black and white as we try to make it.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #456 on: October 17, 2019, 04:19:00 PM »
Can God change his mind? No. We change our minds when we're provided with new information. There is no such thing as information that is new to God.
Is it possible that non-Christians can make it to heaven? Not counting children who are too young to make an informed decision, the Bible says no. For me, I have to go by that. But there's a part of me that hopes that God in his grace and mercy will somehow find others "worthy." There is no way for me to know the mind of God. But if I have compassion and love for non-Christians, then how much greater is God's?

Catholics have levels of sin. Christians aren't supposed to (but too often act like it). Even the smallest sin will keep you out of Heaven without Christ. Yet, after a true and sincere repentance, we all continue to sin. But post-redemption sinning no longer has the risk of rescinding our ticket, but I believe it will affect the rewards we receive. I believe that suicide falls into this latter category. Again, there is no way for us to even begin to surmise at what God's view is on the effects of mental illness. I doubt it's as black and white as we try to make it.

Well said, brother! or sister.

Offline Happiness

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Re: God?
« Reply #457 on: October 17, 2019, 04:42:44 PM »
Why does Christian fast food (In-n-Out, Chick-fil-a, Carl's Jr., etc.) taste better than Liberal Godless fast food (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc.)?

Eye... or taste buds... of the beholder. :)

Didn't realize Carl's was Christian... what is Taco Bell? qwertaco wants to know. :)

Carl Karcher was a devout Catholic. In the 1980-90s, liberals organized a boycott of Carl's Jr. for Karcher's financial support of anti-abortion groups. I named Carl's Jr, Chick-fil-a, and In-n-Out because all three were subject to liberal boycotts for being pro-life, pro-marriage, and pro GOP, respectively.

Carl Karcher's son is still a priest in the Orange diocese.  I recently met him as he presided over my great uncle's funeral.  My relatives that are Catholic said the Karchers have donated massive sums to the church over the years.

As for the politics of Carl Karcher I would be curious to know if he really was a Republican.  Many Catholics are pro-life Democrats.  I have heard Karcher was extremely unhappy with the direction of the company after he lost majority control, due to their sexy ad campaigns in the early 2000's.
Carl kept a low profile with his philanthropy. When I was a kid, I noticed there were retarded people working at every Carl's Jr. I visited so I finally asked a manager about it. The manager said Carl goes out of his way to give jobs to retarded people even though it was a big loss financially. Carl implemented this policy totally under the radar, unlike a Liberal who would take out a billboard announcing their social consciousness for virtue signaling cred. I knew Carl's personal lawyer who told me CKE fired Carl for many reasons, including that Carl wanted to sell Mexican food which is something CKE later did anyways then they incorporated Green Burrito into Carl's Jr. stores. After CKE fired Carl, they continued to paid him $400k a year as a consultant. BTW, CKE moved to Tennessee last year citing the terrible business environment in California.

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #458 on: October 17, 2019, 05:22:50 PM »
@Mety:

If there was a Judge who pardons everyone who committed murders and lets them go free, would you think of that Judge as a forgiving and loving judge? Or would you say he/she is more like someone who can’t do the job right?

Actually I will answer this although it does not apply.

If this judge is God, who am I to say he's not doing his job right. If he chooses to pardon everyone that is his will and being my God I must accept it.

However, to apply this to what I'm saying, if at some point in time, he decides to change his mind, he can do so and again, I must accept it.

I disagree with the notion that God cannot change his mind. Just because he knows everything, does not mean he will do things differently in the future. There are many times in the Bible where God knew what man would do but he allowed it to happen anyway.

Here is my loophole scenario:

When we are all finally called to be judged before God, what is to stop him from asking a Jew or a Muslim this question:

"Now... do you believe that Jesus is my son and there is no way to heaven but through accepting him as your God?"

He will know the conviction behind their answer and bam... heaven via Jesus, or hell via wrong choice. Tada!!!

By the way, I think samuroo is saying almost exactly the same thing I am saying regarding God having the mercy and grace of finding non-Christians "worthy". How is that "well said" when you question my same hope?
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Offline Liar Loan

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Re: God?
« Reply #459 on: October 17, 2019, 05:23:36 PM »
Why does Christian fast food (In-n-Out, Chick-fil-a, Carl's Jr., etc.) taste better than Liberal Godless fast food (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc.)?

Eye... or taste buds... of the beholder. :)

Didn't realize Carl's was Christian... what is Taco Bell? qwertaco wants to know. :)

Carl Karcher was a devout Catholic. In the 1980-90s, liberals organized a boycott of Carl's Jr. for Karcher's financial support of anti-abortion groups. I named Carl's Jr, Chick-fil-a, and In-n-Out because all three were subject to liberal boycotts for being pro-life, pro-marriage, and pro GOP, respectively.

Carl Karcher's son is still a priest in the Orange diocese.  I recently met him as he presided over my great uncle's funeral.  My relatives that are Catholic said the Karchers have donated massive sums to the church over the years.

As for the politics of Carl Karcher I would be curious to know if he really was a Republican.  Many Catholics are pro-life Democrats.  I have heard Karcher was extremely unhappy with the direction of the company after he lost majority control, due to their sexy ad campaigns in the early 2000's.
Carl kept a low profile with his philanthropy. When I was a kid, I noticed there were retarded people working at every Carl's Jr. I visited so I finally asked a manager about it. The manager said Carl goes out of his way to give jobs to retarded people even though it was a big loss financially. Carl implemented this policy totally under the radar, unlike a Liberal who would take out a billboard announcing their social consciousness for virtue signaling cred. I knew Carl's personal lawyer who told me CKE fired Carl for many reasons, including that Carl wanted to sell Mexican food which is something CKE later did anyways then they incorporated Green Burrito into Carl's Jr. stores. After CKE fired Carl, they continued to paid him $400k a year as a consultant. BTW, CKE moved to Tennessee last year citing the terrible business environment in California.

I believe they fired him precisely because of the Green Burrito acquisition, which the board wasn't too happy about.  Ironically, it ended up being very successful.

Offline momopi

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Re: God?
« Reply #460 on: October 18, 2019, 09:48:14 AM »
I went to a high school with sub-par academic rating, but had a great teacher who taught culture over rote memorization.  Students who took his French class didn't really learn how to speak the language, but end up studying abroad in France, marrying a French husband, and moving to France.  I started reading Astérix le Gaulois comics and later went to culinary school to learn French cuisine.  About 10 years ago I backpacked through France.

My teacher told me that he was religious when he was young.  As he got older, he moved to a new town for college and went to a nearby Church.  During Church service the Pastor brought out 2 buckets and an ice pick like tool.  He lifted one bucket filled with water and preached about people who woke up on Sunday morning and didn't feel like going to Church, skipping one service is OK right?  He punctured the bucket and showed water flowing out, this is like your soul for skipping Church.  Skip another week?  Bam!  Another hole in the bucket.  At that point he had an epiphany moment, "he is full of crap", and walked out.

After graduation, he moved to Long Beach and got a job working as a HS teacher in 1960s.  By chance he encountered Quakers from Whittier and attended their Friend's Meeting.  Over time he reconciled with his faith through Quaker-like spirituality in direct, personal relationship over religious dogma.  He lived simply without extravagance, married a wheelchair bound wife and adopted a daughter.  When he passed away, in accordance to his wishes we had a simple Quaker style meeting/pot luck at his home and buried his ashes under a tree without elaborate ceremony.  I still fondly remember him taking a group of us to see Phantom of the Opera with the original cast (Michael Crawford & Sarah Brightman).

Though the Quaker community in Whittier has been in long decline, they are still around.  If Church doctrine, religious dogma, and shrieking televangelists doesn't speak to you, perhaps the Quakers might serve a better alternative.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 11:21:26 AM by momopi »

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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #461 on: October 21, 2019, 11:59:25 AM »
@Mety:

If there was a Judge who pardons everyone who committed murders and lets them go free, would you think of that Judge as a forgiving and loving judge? Or would you say he/she is more like someone who can’t do the job right?

Actually I will answer this although it does not apply.

If this judge is God, who am I to say he's not doing his job right. If he chooses to pardon everyone that is his will and being my God I must accept it.

However, to apply this to what I'm saying, if at some point in time, he decides to change his mind, he can do so and again, I must accept it.

I disagree with the notion that God cannot change his mind. Just because he knows everything, does not mean he will do things differently in the future. There are many times in the Bible where God knew what man would do but he allowed it to happen anyway.

Here is my loophole scenario:

When we are all finally called to be judged before God, what is to stop him from asking a Jew or a Muslim this question:

"Now... do you believe that Jesus is my son and there is no way to heaven but through accepting him as your God?"

He will know the conviction behind their answer and bam... heaven via Jesus, or hell via wrong choice. Tada!!!

By the way, I think samuroo is saying almost exactly the same thing I am saying regarding God having the mercy and grace of finding non-Christians "worthy". How is that "well said" when you question my same hope?

Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't able to login for awhile.

The difference between what you and samuroo are saying is that while samuroo is clearly stating what the Bible says (which he/she believes) with his wish that non-church-goers to be also saved, you seem like to put God in a box that you've created, which seem all nice and safe for non-believers as well, but limiting God within your own understanding or going beyond what God actually says.

That example you gave is very non-biblical which means very opposite of what Jesus says. Read the story of the rich man and the Lazarus from Luke 16. I'm sure you know the story. Jesus gave a story of the poor Lazarus ending up in Heaven while the rich man ends up in Hell. The reason for that is the rich man didn't hear nor believed in what Moses and the Prophets were saying. They were prophesying of Jesus all over the Scripture and the rich man only relied on his earthly wealth. Jesus also clearly says those who don't believe Moses and the Prophets neither will believe even if someone rises from the dead. He is pretty much saying if you don't believe in the Bible then you pretty much don't believe Jesus, who rose from the dead, is the only way to God. God gives us all those time on earth to hear and believe in His Words. Anything beyond that (after death) is a spiritual world we can't know like you said, but we only can believe what the Bible says as a Christian. This story Jesus gives is one of them.

I might be misunderstanding you of your sincere heart for non-believers to be saved. After reading these posts here I also repented of myself if I was being judgy and not having enough love for those who don't believe yet. But one thing we should make clear is that if you (not just you IHO, but everyone) call yourself a Christian then you should stick to what Christ says. What the Bible says is pretty much what Jesus Christ says is what God the Father says since He declared that in NT. While compassion for non-believers is a heart we all should have, we need to make sure that we firmly believe in the absolute standard, The Holy Bible. If we start to create beyond what the Bible says, then even though it might seem nice, it could very be against what Jesus teaches. I think this is (and has been since day one) what some (or many) churches are doing wrong and confuse the issue of salvation for those who don't know yet.

BTW, since you answered my question. I will add this also. That judge pardoning murders example is actually what God did for us. While He has a perfect standard of what holiness is, He does provide a way for everyone, even murderers or any worst sinners, to be forgiven. He did that through the Jubilee as He gave laws to Israel, and He did that through giving His Son Jesus for us. The only way not to be forgiven is by rejecting that God did that for us so. If those pardoned murderers say "No way the judge did that. I'm just going to stay in jail and die here," then they can't be forgiven. Those who rejected God saved Israel from Egypt were all punished and died in the wilderness. Those who blasphemes the Spirit by saying Jesus was from demon (if you say Jesus is not the Son of God then you're pretty much saying Jesus is demon since Jesus can only be either a Son of God or someone Satan sent for just a nice man or a prophet, as some Jews and Muslims proclaim, doesn't say he is a Son of God) were and will be punished as the Bible states clearly.

You might say you're talking about something completely different like "what about someone who never heard Jesus?" But it's all related issues in the end. It's always the issue of denying myself before God. Those who believe in Jesus is because they believe there is nothing good in themselves and admit their sin. Those who truly admit their sin and also believe any "good" things coming out of them is all from the Creator WILL be saved. God WILL make sure for them to recognize Jesus, the Son of God, the only Savior of our soul and also the body. Interesting thing is that those who really really dive deep into study the Bible to deny God usually all end up denying themselves by believing in Jesus. God will never forsake those who seek Him.

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #462 on: October 21, 2019, 02:20:20 PM »
One other thing... I don't really see God allowing non-Christians a way into heaven as changing his mind.

How do we know that's not his plan all along and he just chose not to tell us.

I think as humans, we can't fully understand what God's plans are... and so whatever he does... he does (which was my point about accepting that Judge's methods regardless).

I'm not criticizing God or questioning what he has told us... I'm just wondering if there is more that we don't have "clearance" for. :)
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #463 on: October 21, 2019, 02:31:35 PM »
I went to a high school with sub-par academic rating, but had a great teacher who taught culture over rote memorization.  Students who took his French class didn't really learn how to speak the language, but end up studying abroad in France, marrying a French husband, and moving to France.  I started reading Astérix le Gaulois comics and later went to culinary school to learn French cuisine.  About 10 years ago I backpacked through France.

My teacher told me that he was religious when he was young.  As he got older, he moved to a new town for college and went to a nearby Church.  During Church service the Pastor brought out 2 buckets and an ice pick like tool.  He lifted one bucket filled with water and preached about people who woke up on Sunday morning and didn't feel like going to Church, skipping one service is OK right?  He punctured the bucket and showed water flowing out, this is like your soul for skipping Church.  Skip another week?  Bam!  Another hole in the bucket.  At that point he had an epiphany moment, "he is full of crap", and walked out.

After graduation, he moved to Long Beach and got a job working as a HS teacher in 1960s.  By chance he encountered Quakers from Whittier and attended their Friend's Meeting.  Over time he reconciled with his faith through Quaker-like spirituality in direct, personal relationship over religious dogma.  He lived simply without extravagance, married a wheelchair bound wife and adopted a daughter.  When he passed away, in accordance to his wishes we had a simple Quaker style meeting/pot luck at his home and buried his ashes under a tree without elaborate ceremony.  I still fondly remember him taking a group of us to see Phantom of the Opera with the original cast (Michael Crawford & Sarah Brightman).

Though the Quaker community in Whittier has been in long decline, they are still around.  If Church doctrine, religious dogma, and shrieking televangelists doesn't speak to you, perhaps the Quakers might serve a better alternative.

momopi,

I'm not sure if you're Christian or not, but let me share with you what real Christianity is. Christianity is simply 2 things - Denying yourself and gaining Christ. While a religion, I mean ANY religion, is something people want to take advantage of to get their own benefits, a real Christianity based on what the Bible says is something you actually need to deny yourself. Many so-called-churches in America or any countries actually are not drawing a clear distinction here. It's not to draw a clear line for you to not being able to join, which seems like what that pastor you wrote of with 2 buckets did. It's a clear distinction from other religions that church needs to let people know so that they're not in it for their own benefits to begin with. Of course those who joined for selfish reasons also do meet God and repent of their selfish past and get transformed sometimes (myself included), but I wish church pastors were teaching earlier about denying yourself, which is what the Bible says, so that I could have known the truth earlier as well. As soon as some pastors started teaching actually what the Bible says, I found myself in true happiness, a happiness this world or money can't give. I found myself in true repentance as well as I get to know more of what the Bible actually says. That is what denying oneself is really.

Yelling at someone because someone feels like skipping a church in Sunday morning doesn't really speak of what Jesus did for the humanity. That pastor with 2 buckets in your teacher's story probably didn't really understand the Bible at all since the real Sabbath is not Sunday, it's actually Saturday if he wanted to get real technical ;).  He should have rather taught why Christians gather on Sundays. But I don't know the full story of that pastor either so I shouldn't judge. Attracting people with worldly riches/materials is also very things that Apostle Paul from the Bible calls rubbish. So many false mega churches have fallen into this mistake. Neither of those cases really seem to follow what Jesus commands. Jesus commanded to teach all nations of what He did. If we were to pick only one role of the church, that's pretty much the only primary one. Being generous or living an inspirational life is something an individual can do with the help of God and it would be nice if the church organizations do that as well, but if they do it without teaching about Jesus, then it shouldn't really be called "church." Church is where you deny yourself and gain Christ. That doesn't sound too attractive, but that is the only way to be with God even life after death according to the Bible, the only Word of God.

In that sense, it's very possible a real saved person or a real Christ believer might not even attend the church. He/she could be anywhere including Quakers ministries. Attending the church simply means that they're in it to surround themselves with other believers who deny themselves and they're in it to to serve others, not to be served. You could be at the most legit Bible teaching church and still not deny yourself, wanting to be served.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 03:31:30 PM by Mety »

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #464 on: October 21, 2019, 03:22:00 PM »
One other thing... I don't really see God allowing non-Christians a way into heaven as changing his mind.

How do we know that's not his plan all along and he just chose not to tell us.

I think as humans, we can't fully understand what God's plans are... and so whatever he does... he does (which was my point about accepting that Judge's methods regardless).

I'm not criticizing God or questioning what he has told us... I'm just wondering if there is more that we don't have "clearance" for. :)

I respect your heart for non-Christians. You said "why not" on God changing His mind. Technically you never said God changes His mind so I guess you could still believe in God who never changes. Let me know if you think otherwise.

If we call ourselves Christians, then shouldn't we have our belief based on what God says? Even those areas we don't fully understand, we should have some sort of belief based on what the Bible says, no? In that sense, the Bible clearly says there is Heaven and Hell and those who end up at either one can't cross each other. If God plans to send everyone Heaven anyways, then why did Jesus come and "die" in place of you? Why did Jesus say that story of the rich man and Lazarus in Hell and Heaven and the rich man wanting to send Lazars back to his family so that they won't end up in Hell like himself? Why did God ever mention about judgment at all? To have false fear on us? The Bible, we Christians believe, doesn't say God uses false or lies like that. I'm just trying to say what makes Christians Christians. Christians are not someone who attend church. Christians are are people who believe in what The Bible says instead of having our own imagination as our belief system, no? God clearly states the only way to salvation and that is by Jesus Christ alone. This statement could draw many enemies on us, but if that's what God says, then that is what it is. Many if not all false churches/religions are branching out from when they say this issue vaguely. Also since we're on this Heaven or Hell topic, I think we should look from the perspective of "Why would God save wretched sinners like us?" instead of "Why God would send all these people to Hell?" Many people would think from the latter therefore question God, but I think we, especially Christians, need to look from the former perspective to understand God's grace even more.

Now all these don't mean if someone claims anti-God or anti-Bible then we should strike him dead like some false religious organizations do. We simply pray and keep asking God for him to repent and turn his soul into Jesus some day. We can still show love and forgiveness to him, but that doesn't mean we change our view on what the Bible says. If you know someone super kind and generous yet not believing in Jesus, then maybe you are the one who need to speak the gospel to him/her. The rest or for someone to believe, that's really up to God. But in order to preach the gospel, I think it's very important to know this issue of salvation clearly first. Although I do believe God can also use someone who don't know too well to speak the truth as His channel of blessing if He wanted to.

 

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