Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes, I am Christian
21 (46.7%)
Yes, I am a non-Christian
3 (6.7%)
Yes, but I am non-religious
2 (4.4%)
No, but I believe in a higher power
7 (15.6%)
No, not at all
12 (26.7%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: God?  (Read 65905 times)

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #750 on: September 04, 2020, 04:52:22 PM »
I'd like to visit where IC goes to church some day. :)

IC and eyephone should recommend some good churches nearby. Not that I'm looking to change from mine, but so that others would know also. I myself can check them out online as well. I've asked for this several times, but no answer yet.

Everyone should find the church that they like and are comfortable with.  No church is better or worse as they are meant to be guides...the ultimate church is with God and through Jesus.  I have a home church but I listen to sermons and teaching from various sources.  While I like the teachings at my home, I like my home church more for its support system as well as the focus on helping spreading the word of God. 

Only thing I suggest is God does not require you to follow Him blindly or to shut down your brain/logic.  He gave us those gifts for a reason as well as to provide us with the Bible.  Do not let any individual, pastor, church, or group of people dictate to you what is "right" or "wrong".  There are plenty of ways to know when someone is leading you astray spiritually...just need to cognizant and aware.

Ultimately, Jesus should be your model and guide...it is pretty corny but the "What would Jesus Do?" motto is probably the best one.  That and

Quote
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Going to our original discussion...how is defying COVID-19 guidelines and suing the state because you want to go to church "loving your neighbor"? 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 05:28:47 PM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #751 on: September 04, 2020, 05:10:04 PM »

Sorry, I was reading again and I actually do agree with the priest part you said.

But wanted to add that leading and protecting the flock is really based on teaching the Bible IMHO. Do you have any other ways besides teaching the Bible to fulfill the leading the protecting role? I'm not saying that's the only way, but probably the most important one because there were all sorts of teachings then and also now that could lead many astray.

Preaching/teaching is one part of leading but not the only or most important.  Jesus taught but He also led by example in helping people in need, calling out injustices, and serving as the perfect model for others to follow with respect to love, compassion, kindness, empathy, humbleness, and generosity. 

Obviously, actions and words need to be Biblically sound and based upon God but there are plenty of sources of teaching available now.  You do not need your pastor to do that. 

Pastors are supposed to be shepherds...shepherds not only feed the flock, they looks out for their wellbeing (i.e. sick), protect them from danger, and goes to look for the ones who are lost.  Those are the roles of a pastor.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 05:25:13 PM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #752 on: September 04, 2020, 05:22:31 PM »

Just check your heart, man. Are you really expressing love through this discussion? To me, it seems like you're just after me to prove I'm wrong and some old white pastor because I mentioned of him. You also seem to be protecting many non-believers while trying to crush me. Maybe you think of me as a non-believer? Of course IHO will think you're so lovely. :)

Go check out what Jesus did when He was on Earth...He protected the non-believers from the religious authority.  As Christians, we are supposed to "sit and eat" with non-believers and defend them from the abuses of those who claim to be religious.

I definitely do not view you as a non-believer and thus I am obligated to speak to you as a brother/sister in Christ regarding your representation of God and His teachings that I believe to be inaccurate.  You are welcome to challenge my beliefs but do so based upon the Bible, not your human perceptions and POV.   Who did Jesus speak most strongly to and challenged the most?  The religious leaders/authority. 

What did Paul consistently do in his letters?  Correct (but also encourage) the various congregations regarding certain issues/wrongs Paul saw.  Paul was the one who called out some of the early church for being elitists and excluding non-Jews from becoming Christians.  He also repeatedly warned them from becoming elitist and setting up barriers and rules to limit those who want to join the church. 

One of the biggest issue I have with predetermination is that elitism that it creates and fosters.  One is a Christian because I was chosen and those who are not Christians are not chosen.  This mindset creates a  world in which most of the people are fallen and not worthy of being saved.  Who cares about those people, they're not chosen.

I ascribed to the belief that all individuals can be saved and thus every non-Christian should be treated as a son or daughter of God.  If I take actions that offends or pushes away a person from being saved, I am not doing my job as a Christian to spread the Word of God.   

Jesus did not ostracize non-believers for their beliefs, their background, or what they thought God was or wasn't.  He just accepted them as they were without pre-conditions. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 05:32:04 PM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #753 on: September 08, 2020, 03:29:54 PM »
I'd like to visit where IC goes to church some day. :)

IC and eyephone should recommend some good churches nearby. Not that I'm looking to change from mine, but so that others would know also. I myself can check them out online as well. I've asked for this several times, but no answer yet.

Everyone should find the church that they like and are comfortable with.  No church is better or worse as they are meant to be guides...the ultimate church is with God and through Jesus.  I have a home church but I listen to sermons and teaching from various sources.  While I like the teachings at my home, I like my home church more for its support system as well as the focus on helping spreading the word of God. 

Only thing I suggest is God does not require you to follow Him blindly or to shut down your brain/logic.  He gave us those gifts for a reason as well as to provide us with the Bible.  Do not let any individual, pastor, church, or group of people dictate to you what is "right" or "wrong".  There are plenty of ways to know when someone is leading you astray spiritually...just need to cognizant and aware.

Ultimately, Jesus should be your model and guide...it is pretty corny but the "What would Jesus Do?" motto is probably the best one.  That and

Quote
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Going to our original discussion...how is defying COVID-19 guidelines and suing the state because you want to go to church "loving your neighbor"?

So why not share those sermons and teachings from various sources you listen to? If you think they're good sources, I think it's good to spread to more people even in a small forum like this.

For all those law suits, the state sued Grace Church for having an indoor meeting initially. They just had to take an action (simply suing back) only to carry the indoor worship service every week legally which is prevailing as of now so far by the judge. There are some churches who sued the government and some I don't agree with them at all theologically so I'm strictly talking about the case of Grace Church here. I don't agree with some careless pastors you gave links about in previous page either. They seem like either a charismatic or a prosperity gospel style teachers which I personally don't see as genuine Christian pastors as I said a long time ago debating with you last time.

We should follow COVID guidelines. But if parts of the guidelines go against God's commandment, then we need to make a choice. So for these churches or their leaderships, they're loving their flocks in care of spiritual needs over the physical regardless of possible persecutions on themselves. You don't see any conflicts from the guideline for your Christian walk so it's easy for you to say what you say, but those who do, it's their choice to follow God's order over the state's. Are you 100% sure your view is the correct one?

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #754 on: September 08, 2020, 03:36:13 PM »

Sorry, I was reading again and I actually do agree with the priest part you said.

But wanted to add that leading and protecting the flock is really based on teaching the Bible IMHO. Do you have any other ways besides teaching the Bible to fulfill the leading the protecting role? I'm not saying that's the only way, but probably the most important one because there were all sorts of teachings then and also now that could lead many astray.

Preaching/teaching is one part of leading but not the only or most important.  Jesus taught but He also led by example in helping people in need, calling out injustices, and serving as the perfect model for others to follow with respect to love, compassion, kindness, empathy, humbleness, and generosity. 

Obviously, actions and words need to be Biblically sound and based upon God but there are plenty of sources of teaching available now.  You do not need your pastor to do that. 

Pastors are supposed to be shepherds...shepherds not only feed the flock, they looks out for their wellbeing (i.e. sick), protect them from danger, and goes to look for the ones who are lost.  Those are the roles of a pastor.

I agree mostly here except for the first sentence. I believe pastors or any Christian leaders should look out for other's spiritual well-beings. Everyone in this world is looking out for the body no matter the races or religions. Christian teachers are to be different in a way to teach about the soul first and foremost, about the spirit. That's what shepherds do. That is what Jesus was commanding Peter to do so(John 21). Shepherds are to protect their flocks from wolves who teach and try to bring about all sorts of wrong doctrines and false fears associated with physical needs.

BTW, if one feels sick or thinks he should stay home for worship, he can do that no problem. He can listen to the doctors who don't teach the Bible. No one is forcing him to come to church.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #755 on: September 08, 2020, 03:38:29 PM »

Just check your heart, man. Are you really expressing love through this discussion? To me, it seems like you're just after me to prove I'm wrong and some old white pastor because I mentioned of him. You also seem to be protecting many non-believers while trying to crush me. Maybe you think of me as a non-believer? Of course IHO will think you're so lovely. :)

Go check out what Jesus did when He was on Earth...He protected the non-believers from the religious authority.  As Christians, we are supposed to "sit and eat" with non-believers and defend them from the abuses of those who claim to be religious.

Are you sure those were non-believers? I believe they were actually real believers over the religious leaders at the time. They were real believers because they recognized their sin while religious leaders didn't. Jesus was just letting them know they were forgiven. Who the Father has given to the Son were these (John 6, 10, 17). This is also one of the pre-destination arguments I can talk about.

I definitely do not view you as a non-believer and thus I am obligated to speak to you as a brother/sister in Christ regarding your representation of God and His teachings that I believe to be inaccurate.  You are welcome to challenge my beliefs but do so based upon the Bible, not your human perceptions and POV.   Who did Jesus speak most strongly to and challenged the most?  The religious leaders/authority. 

It's funny because that's exactly what I'm doing with you here.

What did Paul consistently do in his letters?  Correct (but also encourage) the various congregations regarding certain issues/wrongs Paul saw.  Paul was the one who called out some of the early church for being elitists and excluding non-Jews from becoming Christians.  He also repeatedly warned them from becoming elitist and setting up barriers and rules to limit those who want to join the church. 

I agree with you 100%. Are you saying you're seeing me as some self elitist?

One of the biggest issue I have with predetermination is that elitism that it creates and fosters.  One is a Christian because I was chosen and those who are not Christians are not chosen.  This mindset creates a  world in which most of the people are fallen and not worthy of being saved.  Who cares about those people, they're not chosen.

I ascribed to the belief that all individuals can be saved and thus every non-Christian should be treated as a son or daughter of God.  If I take actions that offends or pushes away a person from being saved, I am not doing my job as a Christian to spread the Word of God.   

Jesus did not ostracize non-believers for their beliefs, their background, or what they thought God was or wasn't.  He just accepted them as they were without pre-conditions.

That's your personal view of how you're seeing predetermination theology. We are all fallen. No one deserves to be saved by God's standard. You're right up to there, but you're into your own interpretation when you start saying things like "Who cares about those people, they're not chosen." God does want everyone to be saved (Ezekiel 18:23), but it's the unwillingness to repent that holds them from being saved. Jesus accepts you as long as you repent. But that repenting heart is also from God. It's the Holy Spirit who does that good work. Think of it this way. It's not some kind of elitists mindset. It's that we can't do any good works, but God chooses to good works through us (Romans8). The focus is on God with His love, grace, sovereignty and all good things instead of us. The focus should not be on "who's not saved?" There also are plenty of verses to back this theology and it makes more sense with clear understanding once you have this mindset when you read the Bible.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 03:46:04 PM by Mety »

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #756 on: September 08, 2020, 04:13:20 PM »

For all those law suits, the state sued Grace Church for having an indoor meeting initially. They just had to take an action (simply suing back) only to carry the indoor worship service every week legally which is prevailing as of now so far by the judge. There are some churches who sued the government and some I don't agree with them at all theologically so I'm strictly talking about the case of Grace Church here. I don't agree with some careless pastors you gave links about in previous page either. They seem like either a charismatic or a prosperity gospel style teachers which I personally don't see as genuine Christian pastors as I said a long time ago debating with you last time.


I am so confused by this argument.  Whether you agree with the pastor theologically has nothing to do with whether the state has the right to restrict indoor service.  Nor does it have anything to do with whether the orders go against God's orders or not.

The point was that there were churches have been materially affected by COVID-19 as a result of their refusal to adhere to COVID restrictions, including the one in Maine that have resulted in 3 deaths and 144 COVID cases. 

Are we going back to the the "true churches" will be saved by God defense?

Quote
We should follow COVID guidelines. But if parts of the guidelines go against God's commandment, then we need to make a choice. So for these churches or their leaderships, they're loving their flocks in care of spiritual needs over the physical regardless of possible persecutions on themselves. You don't see any conflicts from the guideline for your Christian walk so it's easy for you to say what you say, but those who do, it's their choice to follow God's order over the state's. Are you 100% sure your view is the correct one?

I don't make up persecution where there is not.  Just because some Christians want to feel special does not make the orders against God's orders.  Equality does not mean persecution. 

Again, what about those churches that defy the orders and then exposed the attendees to COVID-19? 

You still have not articulated where the COVID order violated God's orders.  There is nothing in the Bible that requires individuals to physically gather to worship within a building...or state that meeting over Zoom is somehow less spiritual.  To me, it's actually a sign of the lack of faith that God that a congregation has to meet in person and within a building for "true worship" to occur.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #757 on: September 08, 2020, 04:17:49 PM »

I agree mostly here except for the first sentence. I believe pastors or any Christian leaders should look out for other's spiritual well-beings. Everyone in this world is looking out for the body no matter the races or religions. Christian teachers are to be different in a way to teach about the soul first and foremost, about the spirit. That's what shepherds do. That is what Jesus was commanding Peter to do so(John 21). Shepherds are to protect their flocks from wolves who teach and try to bring about all sorts of wrong doctrines and false fears associated with physical needs.

BTW, if one feels sick or thinks he should stay home for worship, he can do that no problem. He can listen to the doctors who don't teach the Bible. No one is forcing him to come to church.

Yes...Jesus told Peter to feed the flock but He also preached to them to model and to help.  Jesus himself modeled this for all to see.  Shepherds are to protect their flock both spiritually and physically. 

I do not know why adhering to medical protocols is somehow anti-Biblical....if you are good with people not coming to church based upon medical concerns...why is there a requirement that anyone goes to church physically? 

I mean, should a person with COVID go to church anyways?  I mean he and the rest of the church would be protected anyways right?

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #758 on: September 08, 2020, 04:29:58 PM »
Quote
Are you sure those were non-believers? I believe they were actually real believers over the religious leaders at the time. They were real believers because they recognized their sin while religious leaders didn't. Jesus was just letting them know they were forgiven. Who the Father has given to the Son were these (John 6, 10, 17). This is also one of the pre-destination arguments I can talk about.


He literally called them sinners and the ones who are lost and that He came to lead them to repentence. 

I have no idea how those are predestination arguments. 
 
Quote

That's your personal view of how you're seeing predetermination theology. We are all fallen. No one deserves to be saved by God's standard. You're right up to there, but you're into your own interpretation when you start saying things like "Who cares about those people, they're not chosen." God does want everyone to be saved (Ezekiel 18:23), but it's the unwillingness to repent that holds them from being saved. Jesus accepts you as long as you repent. But that repenting heart is also from God. It's the Holy Spirit who does that good work. Think of it this way. It's not some kind of elitists mindset. It's that we can't do any good works, but God chooses to good works through us (Romans8). The focus is on God with His love, grace, sovereignty and all good things instead of us. The focus should not be on "who's not saved?" There also are plenty of verses to back this theology and it makes more sense with clear understanding once you have this mindset when you read the Bible.

I am not into my own interpretation...it is literally why the Pilgrims came to this country...they believed that they were the chosen few and were commanded by God to leave the old and corrupt world.  Pilgrim then kicked out anyone who challenged the concept of predestination.

http://mayflowerhistory.com/religion#:~:text=Predestination.,grace%2C%20and%20would%20have%20faith.

https://www.ushistory.org/us/3e.asp

Quote
ut that repenting heart is also from God. It's the Holy Spirit who does that good work. Think of it this way. It's not some kind of elitists mindset.

Of course it is some sort of elitist argument...why did God choose some over others?  Those who are chosen are by definition elite.

If all fall short of the glory of God, why do some get saved and others do not? 

Quote
The focus should not be on "who's not saved?"

Why not?  It is why Jesus came.  To look for the one lost sheep...

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?  Matthew 18:2

Why else would God keep believers here if not to spread the word of God and to bring as many into the Kingdom of Heave as possible? 

Quote
There also are plenty of verses to back this theology and it makes more sense with clear understanding once you have this mindset when you read the Bible.

You keep saying this but I see the opposite.  Please elaborate.



Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #759 on: September 08, 2020, 10:28:46 PM »

For all those law suits, the state sued Grace Church for having an indoor meeting initially. They just had to take an action (simply suing back) only to carry the indoor worship service every week legally which is prevailing as of now so far by the judge. There are some churches who sued the government and some I don't agree with them at all theologically so I'm strictly talking about the case of Grace Church here. I don't agree with some careless pastors you gave links about in previous page either. They seem like either a charismatic or a prosperity gospel style teachers which I personally don't see as genuine Christian pastors as I said a long time ago debating with you last time.


I am so confused by this argument.  Whether you agree with the pastor theologically has nothing to do with whether the state has the right to restrict indoor service.  Nor does it have anything to do with whether the orders go against God's orders or not.

The point was that there were churches have been materially affected by COVID-19 as a result of their refusal to adhere to COVID restrictions, including the one in Maine that have resulted in 3 deaths and 144 COVID cases. 

Are we going back to the the "true churches" will be saved by God defense?

I was simply answering your questions, but I guess you are so determined to condemn all churches meeting up in person. Please read again if you really want to get out of your confusion. I can explain again if you still don't get it.

Also you seem to think that if one gets COVID and dies, that means God doesn't love that person. I don't think that although you might be confused to think I do.

We should follow COVID guidelines. But if parts of the guidelines go against God's commandment, then we need to make a choice. So for these churches or their leaderships, they're loving their flocks in care of spiritual needs over the physical regardless of possible persecutions on themselves. You don't see any conflicts from the guideline for your Christian walk so it's easy for you to say what you say, but those who do, it's their choice to follow God's order over the state's. Are you 100% sure your view is the correct one?

I don't make up persecution where there is not.  Just because some Christians want to feel special does not make the orders against God's orders.  Equality does not mean persecution. 

Again, what about those churches that defy the orders and then exposed the attendees to COVID-19? 

You still have not articulated where the COVID order violated God's orders.  There is nothing in the Bible that requires individuals to physically gather to worship within a building...or state that meeting over Zoom is somehow less spiritual.  To me, it's actually a sign of the lack of faith that God that a congregation has to meet in person and within a building for "true worship" to occur.

First, you didn't answer my questions. But I'll answer yours. I never said or even thought Christians must meet in a building or indoors. Meeting outdoors or even a small gathering in one's home all can be worship as well. Zoom and streaming are all creative ways we can worship as well. I felt like I said this over and over. I don't remember saying anything about less spiritual or anything by the different forms of gatherings. I really hope you get it by now.

As for meeting indoors, I told you I thought we could not meet indoors at all. But you told me otherwise and I really hope you're right. So that argument should have been finished by now. Unless the law changes or you were wrong all along, I'm glad to know we can actually go to someone's home. We've been careful and meeting outdoors only so far if you were really concerned. Understood so far?

Now to get into physical gatherings, I think that's where you're neglecting the importance. You can choose your own style if you think that's more efficient. I'm not saying what is better over the other. I'm saying this has been spoken in the Bible. First, it was commanded by God. Yes, to Israel, but the same spirit is for Christians as well. Remember, this has never been a requirement for salvation. This is something God commanded for His people to do and better it is when we obey. The main reason is to hear the Word of God. To hear it and learn to fear God. Israelite's Assembly was to do that and now Church is to do that. Also like I said before, it is a proclamation of our faith that we gather physically. God wants us to show the world that we gather in such way in response to tell the world we hear and fear the Lord our God. Here are some verses.

Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God, and be careful to do all the words of this law, and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God, as long as you live in the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. - Deuteronomy 31:12-13

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I (Jesus) among them. - Matthew 18:20

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. - Acts 2:42-47

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. - Hebrews 10:24-25

You might say we can do all those hearing and fearing God at home with Internet now. Yes, by all means use those technology and tools to worship God. We can do Zoom and video meetings no problem. God also leads us to be alone sometimes. But just in general, for the believers, we are to gather and love physically. How big or how small don't matter. Jesus said all we need is two or three. But we should be gathered in His Name. We are different parts of Christ's body. Better to be together than separate. It's a symbolic expression, but you get the idea.



Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. - Colossians 3:16

Being restricted on public gatherings and singing together are all banned now (hopefully temporarily). The government might be saying they're doing that to protect our health and maybe they really are, but let's see how long this goes and how everything turns out. Seems like you are with the state's call to sue those churches.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #760 on: September 08, 2020, 10:28:52 PM »

I agree mostly here except for the first sentence. I believe pastors or any Christian leaders should look out for other's spiritual well-beings. Everyone in this world is looking out for the body no matter the races or religions. Christian teachers are to be different in a way to teach about the soul first and foremost, about the spirit. That's what shepherds do. That is what Jesus was commanding Peter to do so(John 21). Shepherds are to protect their flocks from wolves who teach and try to bring about all sorts of wrong doctrines and false fears associated with physical needs.

BTW, if one feels sick or thinks he should stay home for worship, he can do that no problem. He can listen to the doctors who don't teach the Bible. No one is forcing him to come to church.

Yes...Jesus told Peter to feed the flock but He also preached to them to model and to help.  Jesus himself modeled this for all to see.  Shepherds are to protect their flock both spiritually and physically. 

I do not know why adhering to medical protocols is somehow anti-Biblical....if you are good with people not coming to church based upon medical concerns...why is there a requirement that anyone goes to church physically? 

I mean, should a person with COVID go to church anyways?  I mean he and the rest of the church would be protected anyways right?

Please give verses where it says about shepherds protecting flocks physically. I asked similar to IHO and he said because our bodies are God's temples. I think that's so that we would not abuse our bodies to sin, not necessarily to take care of our bodies to be healthy. Just in case you go too far again, I'm all for being healthy also. I just need you to educate me where in the Bible it talks about being healthy or pastors leading people with physical protection. So far, I only know we are actually to take spiritual training more than physical according to 1 Timothy 4 and also we are to be not too concerned about our body which is corrupting anyways but look for the new one like Christ's.

Also there is no requirement in the Bible you have to go to church physically every week. If you're sick, not just COVID sick but even a small cold, you just rest at home until you are well.  I mean even from Moses' Laws, God gave descriptions how to quarantine "not-well" people in a separate place for awhile. Obviously you think my definition of God's protection is just a physical one which is not true since I see more as the spiritual one. So much misunderstanding.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #761 on: September 08, 2020, 10:31:25 PM »
Quote
Are you sure those were non-believers? I believe they were actually real believers over the religious leaders at the time. They were real believers because they recognized their sin while religious leaders didn't. Jesus was just letting them know they were forgiven. Who the Father has given to the Son were these (John 6, 10, 17). This is also one of the pre-destination arguments I can talk about.


He literally called them sinners and the ones who are lost and that He came to lead them to repentence. 

I have no idea how those are predestination arguments. 
 
Quote

That's your personal view of how you're seeing predetermination theology. We are all fallen. No one deserves to be saved by God's standard. You're right up to there, but you're into your own interpretation when you start saying things like "Who cares about those people, they're not chosen." God does want everyone to be saved (Ezekiel 18:23), but it's the unwillingness to repent that holds them from being saved. Jesus accepts you as long as you repent. But that repenting heart is also from God. It's the Holy Spirit who does that good work. Think of it this way. It's not some kind of elitists mindset. It's that we can't do any good works, but God chooses to good works through us (Romans8). The focus is on God with His love, grace, sovereignty and all good things instead of us. The focus should not be on "who's not saved?" There also are plenty of verses to back this theology and it makes more sense with clear understanding once you have this mindset when you read the Bible.

I am not into my own interpretation...it is literally why the Pilgrims came to this country...they believed that they were the chosen few and were commanded by God to leave the old and corrupt world.  Pilgrim then kicked out anyone who challenged the concept of predestination.

http://mayflowerhistory.com/religion#:~:text=Predestination.,grace%2C%20and%20would%20have%20faith.

https://www.ushistory.org/us/3e.asp

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ut that repenting heart is also from God. It's the Holy Spirit who does that good work. Think of it this way. It's not some kind of elitists mindset.

Of course it is some sort of elitist argument...why did God choose some over others?  Those who are chosen are by definition elite.

If all fall short of the glory of God, why do some get saved and others do not? 

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The focus should not be on "who's not saved?"

Why not?  It is why Jesus came.  To look for the one lost sheep...

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?  Matthew 18:2

Why else would God keep believers here if not to spread the word of God and to bring as many into the Kingdom of Heave as possible? 

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There also are plenty of verses to back this theology and it makes more sense with clear understanding once you have this mindset when you read the Bible.

You keep saying this but I see the opposite.  Please elaborate.

Couple verses to back the theology of predestination...

(Jesus is saying) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. - John 6:37

(Again Jesus is saying) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. - John 15:16

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.. - Ephesians 1:4

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will - Ephesians 1:5

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” - Jeremiah 1:5



Now for those who are not saved...

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

Christians are to be thankful and stay humble because even though we deserve to be punished like those wicked in the day of trouble, in His judgement, we are somehow saved by His grace.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” - Romans 9:15

Why we still here then you ask? Because it's not God's time to bring His full judgement yet. You should be thankful you got to believe God and His Son before that time though. You say that's elitist mindset, but I see as God's patience and His perfect sovereignty to orchestrate everything in His order to write history even over everyone's mess ups.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #762 on: October 05, 2020, 04:14:12 PM »
Churches are starting to open as the restrictions soften. I guess there is still this 100 people max limit with masks, but I'm seeing people with joy for being at worship together. Outdoor services seem more harmful since the weather and the air quality have been not so great lately in California .

Grace Community Church, on the other hand, has been having 5000+ people indoor worship services for months and not a single COVID broke out there. The state tried to take away their parking spots and threatened for possible jail times and penalties for the pastor, but all those have been failing miserably by the court so far.

Where is IC?

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #763 on: October 05, 2020, 07:50:03 PM »
Grace Community Church, on the other hand, has been having 5000+ people indoor worship services for months and not a single COVID broke out there.

You may want to fact check this.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #764 on: October 05, 2020, 10:26:17 PM »
Grace Community Church, on the other hand, has been having 5000+ people indoor worship services for months and not a single COVID broke out there.

You may want to fact check this.

Can you?

 

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