Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes, I am Christian
18 (45%)
Yes, I am a non-Christian
3 (7.5%)
Yes, but I am non-religious
2 (5%)
No, but I believe in a higher power
6 (15%)
No, not at all
11 (27.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #435 on: October 17, 2019, 10:36:48 AM »
While we're on a topic of suicide in this thread, I find many Christians say that people who commit suicide can't go to heaven or can't be saved.

I personally don't believe that to be true.

If you believe in God who forgives all sins then isn't committing suicide also considered to be forgiven?

I can explain more, but want to hear what your opinions are first.

Thoughts?


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Re: God?
« Reply #436 on: October 17, 2019, 10:44:59 AM »
While we're on a topic of suicide in this thread, I find many Christians say that people who commit suicide can't go to heaven or can't be saved.

I personally don't believe that to be true.

If you believe in God who forgives all sins then isn't committing suicide also considered to be forgiven?

I can explain more, but want to hear what your opinions are first.

Thoughts?

I think Catholics are taught that suicide leads to damnation, but I'm with you, those who have repented of their sin would indeed be forgiven.

Offline Liar Loan

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Re: God?
« Reply #437 on: October 17, 2019, 10:54:29 AM »
Why does Christian fast food (In-n-Out, Chick-fil-a, Carl's Jr., etc.) taste better than Liberal Godless fast food (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc.)?

Eye... or taste buds... of the beholder. :)

Didn't realize Carl's was Christian... what is Taco Bell? qwertaco wants to know. :)

Carl Karcher was a devout Catholic. In the 1980-90s, liberals organized a boycott of Carl's Jr. for Karcher's financial support of anti-abortion groups. I named Carl's Jr, Chick-fil-a, and In-n-Out because all three were subject to liberal boycotts for being pro-life, pro-marriage, and pro GOP, respectively.

Carl Karcher's son is still a priest in the Orange diocese.  I recently met him as he presided over my great uncle's funeral.  My relatives that are Catholic said the Karchers have donated massive sums to the church over the years.

As for the politics of Carl Karcher I would be curious to know if he really was a Republican.  Many Catholics are pro-life Democrats.  I have heard Karcher was extremely unhappy with the direction of the company after he lost majority control, due to their sexy ad campaigns in the early 2000's.

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Re: God?
« Reply #438 on: October 17, 2019, 12:18:27 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #439 on: October 17, 2019, 01:09:31 PM »
While we're on a topic of suicide in this thread, I find many Christians say that people who commit suicide can't go to heaven or can't be saved.

I personally don't believe that to be true.

If you believe in God who forgives all sins then isn't committing suicide also considered to be forgiven?

I can explain more, but want to hear what your opinions are first.

Thoughts?

I think Catholics are taught that suicide leads to damnation, but I'm with you, those who have repented of their sin would indeed be forgiven.

Do you know what Catholics are basing their teaching on that one? I think they've done more wrong by adding those human standards instead of keeping it all God's standards for the salvation issue.

Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #440 on: October 17, 2019, 01:31:49 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.

There are 2 kinds of repentances.

1. The repentance of your sinful nature before God
2. The repentance of your daily mistakes

The list number 1 technically can be done only once in your life time. It's not to say you can't do more than once, but what matters is that you have acknowledged your sin and short coming of the perfect holiness, which is required for you to be saved, before God. That means you admit that you deserve to go hell. But by putting yourself on what Jesus had already done, which He died in place of you, you're having a faith that your life on your own no longer is measured before God but now Jesus' status is your own status. That is the ONLY way to be saved. A simple example would be a woman is married to her husband and now she has his last name. In that sense, they are "one." The same thing of our relationship to Christ, we have Jesus as our husband and we have His status, which is that "perfect holiness." This is the only thing that is required for someone to go to heaven or to be saved. This is the true repentance.

While we are saved, we still live our daily lives and fall into mistakes, sometimes even sinning against God until Christ returns and sets His Kingdom. That's where we do the list number 2. We pray and ask God for forgiveness daily. Though this is not a real requirement for someone to be "saved," a real saved person would do so since he/she acknowledges God knows and sees everything.

@IHO, what do you mean by "non-Christians can somehow get into heaven?" Can you please explain further on this?

Offline Liar Loan

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Re: God?
« Reply #441 on: October 17, 2019, 01:47:40 PM »
While we're on a topic of suicide in this thread, I find many Christians say that people who commit suicide can't go to heaven or can't be saved.

I personally don't believe that to be true.

If you believe in God who forgives all sins then isn't committing suicide also considered to be forgiven?

I can explain more, but want to hear what your opinions are first.

Thoughts?

I think Catholics are taught that suicide leads to damnation, but I'm with you, those who have repented of their sin would indeed be forgiven.

Do you know what Catholics are basing their teaching on that one? I think they've done more wrong by adding those human standards instead of keeping it all God's standards for the salvation issue.

They believe it is a mortal sin meaning it needs to be repented of before death.  Since you can't repent of suicide after the fact, it's believed your chances of getting into Heaven are reduced, if not eliminated.

They also have a lesser tier of sins called venial sins that are treated more like infractions.  Examples of these would be a white lie, stealing a piece of candy, or cursing at somebody.

Again, I'm with you... Jesus taught that sin is not just the act of doing something wrong, but is determined by what is in our hearts.

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Re: God?
« Reply #442 on: October 17, 2019, 01:54:51 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.

There are 2 kinds of repentances.

1. The repentance of your sinful nature before God
2. The repentance of your daily mistakes

The list number 1 technically can be done only once in your life time. It's not to say you can't do more than once, but what matters is that you have acknowledged your sin and short coming of the perfect holiness, which is required for you to be saved, before God. That means you admit that you deserve to go hell. But by putting yourself on what Jesus had already done, which He died in place of you, you're having a faith that your life on your own no longer is measured before God but now Jesus' status is your own status. That is the ONLY way to be saved. A simple example would be a woman is married to her husband and now she has his last name. In that sense, they are "one." The same thing of our relationship to Christ, we have Jesus as our husband and we have His status, which is that "perfect holiness." This is the only thing that is required for someone to go to heaven or to be saved. This is the true repentance.

While we are saved, we still live our daily lives and fall into mistakes, sometimes even sinning against God until Christ returns and sets His Kingdom. That's where we do the list number 2. We pray and ask God for forgiveness daily. Though this is not a real requirement for someone to be "saved," a real saved person would do so since he/she acknowledges God knows and sees everything.

So what happens to those who lose their faith... or "divorce" from Christ... are they still saved?

Quote
@IHO, what do you mean by "non-Christians can somehow get into heaven?" Can you please explain further on this?

We talked about this before with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc who don't believe Jesus is God. While the Bible teaches us there is no way to heaven but through Jesus, the ultimate judgement belongs to God and I feel in the end, heaven won't be that exclusive.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #443 on: October 17, 2019, 02:17:42 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.

There are 2 kinds of repentances.

1. The repentance of your sinful nature before God
2. The repentance of your daily mistakes

The list number 1 technically can be done only once in your life time. It's not to say you can't do more than once, but what matters is that you have acknowledged your sin and short coming of the perfect holiness, which is required for you to be saved, before God. That means you admit that you deserve to go hell. But by putting yourself on what Jesus had already done, which He died in place of you, you're having a faith that your life on your own no longer is measured before God but now Jesus' status is your own status. That is the ONLY way to be saved. A simple example would be a woman is married to her husband and now she has his last name. In that sense, they are "one." The same thing of our relationship to Christ, we have Jesus as our husband and we have His status, which is that "perfect holiness." This is the only thing that is required for someone to go to heaven or to be saved. This is the true repentance.

While we are saved, we still live our daily lives and fall into mistakes, sometimes even sinning against God until Christ returns and sets His Kingdom. That's where we do the list number 2. We pray and ask God for forgiveness daily. Though this is not a real requirement for someone to be "saved," a real saved person would do so since he/she acknowledges God knows and sees everything.

So what happens to those who lose their faith... or "divorce" from Christ... are they still saved?

Quote
@IHO, what do you mean by "non-Christians can somehow get into heaven?" Can you please explain further on this?

We talked about this before with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc who don't believe Jesus is God. While the Bible teaches us there is no way to heaven but through Jesus, the ultimate judgement belongs to God and I feel in the end, heaven won't be that exclusive.

According to the Bible, specifically 1 John 2 and Romans 8 as these are the most famous ones about this issue, once you're saved, God will never lose you. Those who fall apart and change their mind on who Jesus is were never really saved from the beginning. They might have come up to the front and signed the paper and all that out of emotion, but never were really genuine. They never did that list number 1 I mentioned above. I also encourage you to read John 6:35-40. Jesus talks about how He will never lose anyone the Father draws to Him. Once saved, always saved. Otherwise, what makes God the faithful God, right?

Is heaven exclusive? According to Jesus, it is. If you want to know what verses, I will quote for you. Remember, everyone, I mean EVERYONE deserves to go to hell. But God will save those who put their faith on His Son, Jesus. It's not really God who's being unfair here. It's the people themselves who choose to go to hell. That is the reason for the judgment.
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." - John 3:19

If you disagree, then are you saying Jesus was lying when He said He was the only way?

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #444 on: October 17, 2019, 02:23:24 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.

There are 2 kinds of repentances.

1. The repentance of your sinful nature before God
2. The repentance of your daily mistakes

The list number 1 technically can be done only once in your life time. It's not to say you can't do more than once, but what matters is that you have acknowledged your sin and short coming of the perfect holiness, which is required for you to be saved, before God. That means you admit that you deserve to go hell. But by putting yourself on what Jesus had already done, which He died in place of you, you're having a faith that your life on your own no longer is measured before God but now Jesus' status is your own status. That is the ONLY way to be saved. A simple example would be a woman is married to her husband and now she has his last name. In that sense, they are "one." The same thing of our relationship to Christ, we have Jesus as our husband and we have His status, which is that "perfect holiness." This is the only thing that is required for someone to go to heaven or to be saved. This is the true repentance.

While we are saved, we still live our daily lives and fall into mistakes, sometimes even sinning against God until Christ returns and sets His Kingdom. That's where we do the list number 2. We pray and ask God for forgiveness daily. Though this is not a real requirement for someone to be "saved," a real saved person would do so since he/she acknowledges God knows and sees everything.

So what happens to those who lose their faith... or "divorce" from Christ... are they still saved?

Quote
@IHO, what do you mean by "non-Christians can somehow get into heaven?" Can you please explain further on this?

We talked about this before with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc who don't believe Jesus is God. While the Bible teaches us there is no way to heaven but through Jesus, the ultimate judgement belongs to God and I feel in the end, heaven won't be that exclusive.

According to the Bible, specifically 1 John 2 and Romans 8 as these are the most famous ones about this issue, once you're saved, God will never lose you. Those who fall apart and change their mind on who Jesus is were never really saved from the beginning. They might have come up to the front and signed the paper and all that out of emotion, but never were really genuine. They never did that list number 1 I mentioned above. I also encourage you to read John 6:35-40. Jesus talks about how He will never lose anyone the Father draws to Him. Once saved, always saved. Otherwise, what makes God the faithful God, right?

So using that logic, one can argue that some who commit suicide were also never saved in the the first place. If they were, they would not take their own life.

Quote
Is heaven exclusive? According to Jesus, it is. If you want to know what verses, I will quote for you. Remember, everyone, I mean EVERYONE deserves to go to hell. But God will save those who put their faith on His Son, Jesus. It's not really God who's being unfair here. It's the people themselves who choose to go to hell. That is the reason for the judgment.
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." - John 3:19

If you disagree, then are you saying Jesus was lying when He said He was the only way?

It's not lying if God decides otherwise.

If I tell my kid that he/she can''t have something until they do something but my wife decides to give it to them anyways... was I lying? :)
Once you go 3-car garage... your junk can never go back.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #445 on: October 17, 2019, 02:35:46 PM »
So just like I feel that non-Christians can somehow get into heaven, so can people who commit suicide.

But here is the question, one can argue that by committing suicide you have lost your faith in God or no longer believe in Him, so what point in time can you profess "faith" and "repentance"?

How do you repent for your sins after you killed yourself? And if you say that you can in spirit after you die, then the same can be said in "faith" in Jesus for non-Christians after they die.

There are 2 kinds of repentances.

1. The repentance of your sinful nature before God
2. The repentance of your daily mistakes

The list number 1 technically can be done only once in your life time. It's not to say you can't do more than once, but what matters is that you have acknowledged your sin and short coming of the perfect holiness, which is required for you to be saved, before God. That means you admit that you deserve to go hell. But by putting yourself on what Jesus had already done, which He died in place of you, you're having a faith that your life on your own no longer is measured before God but now Jesus' status is your own status. That is the ONLY way to be saved. A simple example would be a woman is married to her husband and now she has his last name. In that sense, they are "one." The same thing of our relationship to Christ, we have Jesus as our husband and we have His status, which is that "perfect holiness." This is the only thing that is required for someone to go to heaven or to be saved. This is the true repentance.

While we are saved, we still live our daily lives and fall into mistakes, sometimes even sinning against God until Christ returns and sets His Kingdom. That's where we do the list number 2. We pray and ask God for forgiveness daily. Though this is not a real requirement for someone to be "saved," a real saved person would do so since he/she acknowledges God knows and sees everything.

So what happens to those who lose their faith... or "divorce" from Christ... are they still saved?

Quote
@IHO, what do you mean by "non-Christians can somehow get into heaven?" Can you please explain further on this?

We talked about this before with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc who don't believe Jesus is God. While the Bible teaches us there is no way to heaven but through Jesus, the ultimate judgement belongs to God and I feel in the end, heaven won't be that exclusive.

According to the Bible, specifically 1 John 2 and Romans 8 as these are the most famous ones about this issue, once you're saved, God will never lose you. Those who fall apart and change their mind on who Jesus is were never really saved from the beginning. They might have come up to the front and signed the paper and all that out of emotion, but never were really genuine. They never did that list number 1 I mentioned above. I also encourage you to read John 6:35-40. Jesus talks about how He will never lose anyone the Father draws to Him. Once saved, always saved. Otherwise, what makes God the faithful God, right?

So using that logic, one can argue that some who commit suicide were also never saved in the the first place. If they were, they would not take their own life.

Quote
Is heaven exclusive? According to Jesus, it is. If you want to know what verses, I will quote for you. Remember, everyone, I mean EVERYONE deserves to go to hell. But God will save those who put their faith on His Son, Jesus. It's not really God who's being unfair here. It's the people themselves who choose to go to hell. That is the reason for the judgment.
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." - John 3:19

If you disagree, then are you saying Jesus was lying when He said He was the only way?

It's not lying if God decides otherwise.

If I tell my kid that he/she can''t have something until they do something but my wife decides to give it to them anyways... was I lying? :)

A real saved Christian most likely would not commit suicide. But not knowing full stories of such person, we can never judge and draw the line of someone's salvation based on what "looks" right or wrong. God is the only one who knows all things and He clearly says in the Bible He can forgive all sins except blaspheming the Spirit which is denying of Jesus as Son of God. So I would say using God's standard is what we can do best instead of trying to use our own logic and make that a standard of salvation.

Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.


Offline Liar Loan

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Re: God?
« Reply #446 on: October 17, 2019, 02:44:29 PM »
A real saved Christian most likely would not commit suicide. But not knowing full stories of such person, we can never judge and draw the line of someone's salvation based on what "looks" right or wrong. God is the only one who knows all things and He clearly says in the Bible He can forgive all sins except blaspheming the Spirit which is denying of Jesus as Son of God. So I would say using God's standard is what we can do best instead of trying to use our own logic and make that a standard of salvation.

I'm going to disagree on this.  I have seen too much evidence to the contrary. 

Recently, a pastor at Harvest Church whose ministry focused on mental health took his own life.  Rick Warren's son also did (who I assume was a Christian), and I know Mrs. Warren now travels to various churches teaching on mental health as a result.  I've also had somebody in my life, a sibling of my son's friend, take his own life and by all accounts he lived a Christian life and impacted others for Christ.

I think it's hard for those of us not going through depression to reconcile these actions, but it's something that overpowers their better judgement and self control, just like a lot of other sins.  That's not even accounting for the biological, chemical component that affects many people with depression.

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Re: God?
« Reply #447 on: October 17, 2019, 02:49:14 PM »
Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You are missing my point. Not once did I say Jesus was lying or that he and God disagreed. What I did say is that it's possible that when it comes to final judgement, God may change his mind, and Jesus would agree with him.

That's neither a Christian or Jewish perspective... that's a "love all people" one.
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Offline Mety

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Re: God?
« Reply #448 on: October 17, 2019, 02:55:32 PM »
Jesus and Father are ONE. They never disagree on ANYTHING. If you're going to say what about that time Jesus' prayer of "Remove this cup from me" was denied, then you don't really get the full story there and I would be glad to explain that correctly for you if you need.

If you say Jesus said this, but God the Father said that, then you should seriously ask yourself if you're Christian. That would be more like a Jewish perspective since they believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You are missing my point. Not once did I say Jesus was lying or that he and God disagreed. What I did say is that it's possible that when it comes to final judgement, God may change his mind, and Jesus would agree with him.

That's neither a Christian or Jewish perspective... that's a "love all people" one.

God may change his mind? Wow, that's certainly not a Christian theology nor a love. Love is real when it's being kept. What Jesus said is what God said. What God said is never going to change. That is the REAL LOVE that His promise is being kept. Seriously, how did you come to such conclusion?

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Re: God?
« Reply #449 on: October 17, 2019, 02:59:18 PM »
A real saved Christian most likely would not commit suicide. But not knowing full stories of such person, we can never judge and draw the line of someone's salvation based on what "looks" right or wrong. God is the only one who knows all things and He clearly says in the Bible He can forgive all sins except blaspheming the Spirit which is denying of Jesus as Son of God. So I would say using God's standard is what we can do best instead of trying to use our own logic and make that a standard of salvation.

I'm going to disagree on this.  I have seen too much evidence to the contrary. 

Recently, a pastor at Harvest Church whose ministry focused on mental health took his own life.  Rick Warren's son also did (who I assume was a Christian), and I know Mrs. Warren now travels to various churches teaching on mental health as a result.  I've also had somebody in my life, a sibling of my son's friend, take his own life and by all accounts he lived a Christian life and impacted others for Christ.

I think it's hard for those of us not going through depression to reconcile these actions, but it's something that overpowers their better judgement and self control, just like a lot of other sins.  That's not even accounting for the biological, chemical component that affects many people with depression.

I'm not sure how what you're saying is contrary to what I'm saying here. I don't know if that pastor from Harvest or Rick Warren's son were real Christians or not, but I'm saying we never know the full story of someone who takes life so we can't judge. However, in most cases (not all), a Christian would not commit such a thing. Is it still contrary to what you're saying?

Although I would like to add that I'm not quite sure if a church pastor should really focus on teaching of mental health. I believe their job is to preach the gospel and proclaim Jesus as the Son of God. I don't know how they would want to focus on something else.

 

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