Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes, I am Christian
13 (38.2%)
Yes, I am a non-Christian
3 (8.8%)
Yes, but I am non-religious
2 (5.9%)
No, but I believe in a higher power
5 (14.7%)
No, not at all
11 (32.4%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: God?  (Read 22209 times)

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2014, 12:32:55 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 
Ahh, so that's what it's called.

And yes, I posted that question earlier... what if you chose the "wrong" deity?

Or what if you choose no deity but still live a moral and giving life?

Well...each religion has its own answer to the first question.  As to the second question, morality is pretty subjective.

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Re: God?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2014, 12:47:56 PM »
This topic started to turn into heated discussion.  Please state your reason why you believe or not believe in god. 

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2014, 12:49:36 PM »
This topic started to turn into heated discussion.  Please state your reason why you believe or not believe in god.

Heated?  It's been pretty calm so far.  I already stated my reasons.

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Re: God?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2014, 02:26:17 PM »
is god same as religion? or are they separate subject?

Does all these terrorist using the name of "religion" or use the name of "god"?

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Re: God?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2014, 02:29:53 PM »
"Although in Christianity, the belief is only through Jesus can a man be saved, it's hard for me to fathom that anyone who leads a moral, charitable life will end up in "the hot house".

The question put is reasonable however in defining a "moral life" you have to ask "by who's standard?" Since man's standards are ever changing you can't rely on that measuring stick as a ticket to heaven.  I'm sure plenty of people believe they are moral, people who by any rational perspective are hardly paragons of virtue. What was acceptable by some in the 1900's is now taboo in the 21st century.

Since God is pure truth and pure love, that is the standard we are judged by. As a Christian, I know that God's standards are an impossible measure that I cannot meet, no matter how much I try. Only through the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ am I considered blameless and acceptable to a holy God. It is if as at a capital trial, God is to sentence me for my crimes, but Christ stands up and accepts my just deserved punishment in my place instead of me.

God hasn't sent anyone to the hot house. Never has, never will. After a lifetime of rejection on earth, a God of love wouldn't force someone to spend eternity living with him. Instead of bending one's life to the will of God as Christians are supposed to saying "Thy will be done", he answers the sinners request - "my will be done", in heaven as it was on earth.

There are plenty of proofs for the existence of a creator. Even at 4x billion years, there isn't enough time or the right conditions to create life out of non-life. Does that disprove evolution? Not really. Micro-evolution is evident today with dogs, cats, birds, all living things changing within their species. Macro-evolution with dinosaurs becoming birds, men evolving from lower species, nope. Was the world created in 6,000 years (Young Earth'ers) or 6 epochs (the "Gap Theory") or 6 literal days? Yes. A creator God could have spoke the universe into existance any or all of these ways. It takes far more faith than I have to believe that as a result of random happenstance over time we have complex and spontaneous life.

Don't know it TI's server space will have enough room for this thread. We'll see. It's been a while since one was locked down.

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Re: God?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2014, 02:32:18 PM »
I think most people believe in a God / religion because of teachings at a young age, done mostly to teach morality. Unfortunately more times than not, teaching morality is done through fear (going to hell, etc.). This fear and the discouragement of questioning keeps most people religious. In fact, a lot of religions tend to fight people questioning their beliefs, but don't mind questioning people who have different beliefs.

A lot of Christian denominations believe in "spreading" their God's word, through any means and bring non-believers (could be Christians of other denomination) in their fold. Such proselytizing is more prevalent in Africa and other developing nations where Christian missionaries go in and provide food, shelter, education to people after they convert to their religion and accept their God's word. Most of these people convert so that they get access to basic amenities rather than for believing in the new God or new religion.

Some of the bloodiest wars in our history have been fought due to spread word of one's God. Be it the crusades in the middle ages, or the fights between Christians (Catholics and Protestants) or in more recent times fanatics of a certain religion killing other non-believers in the name of their God. God is one concept / word that has been abused by people time and again to control the masses for power.

Once you give thought to how most religions in the past spread because of the religion of the ruler of the region (be it Catholicism in South America, and Islam in Middle East being prime examples) it becomes clear that most people were left no choice except death but to convert to that religion.

Sorry for the long post, might be a little incoherent at times, but just wanted to highlight how people abuse and misuse God and religion for their benefit.

I think yaliu rightly points out, most people mix God and religion and cannot separate one from the other, other than the "new age" believers and "spiritual" who believe in a higher power regardless of religion.

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2014, 02:40:21 PM »
I think most people believe in a God / religion because of teachings at a young age, done mostly to teach morality. Unfortunately more times than not, teaching morality is done through fear (going to hell, etc.). This fear and the discouragement of questioning keeps most people religious. In fact, a lot of religions tend to fight people questioning their beliefs, but don't mind questioning people who have different beliefs.

A lot of Christian denominations believe in "spreading" their God's word, through any means and bring non-believers (could be Christians of other denomination) in their fold. Such proselytizing is more prevalent in Africa and other developing nations where Christian missionaries go in and provide food, shelter, education to people after they convert to their religion and accept their God's word. Most of these people convert so that they get access to basic amenities rather than for believing in the new God or new religion.

Some of the bloodiest wars in our history have been fought due to spread word of one's God. Be it the crusades in the middle ages, or the fights between Christians (Catholics and Protestants) or in more recent times fanatics of a certain religion killing other non-believers in the name of their God. God is one concept / word that has been abused by people time and again to control the masses for power.

Once you give thought to how most religions in the past spread because of the religion of the ruler of the region (be it Catholicism in South America, and Islam in Middle East being prime examples) it becomes clear that most people were left no choice except death but to convert to that religion.

Sorry for the long post, might be a little incoherent at times, but just wanted to highlight how people abuse and misuse God and religion for their benefit.

I think yaliu rightly points out, most people mix God and religion and cannot separate one from the other, other than the "new age" believers and "spiritual" who believe in a higher power regardless of religion.

Religion is often used as an excuse to create war/chaos but it's the covering, not the cause.  Most of the popes in history were political in nature and used the crusades as a way to filter out enemies from allies.  But that's no different than most things.  Mass murder was committed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao for reasons unrelated to religion.  Chinese history is filled with war and death and religion played next to no role in that history.

Religion is different from God.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2014, 02:48:31 PM »
"Although in Christianity, the belief is only through Jesus can a man be saved, it's hard for me to fathom that anyone who leads a moral, charitable life will end up in "the hot house".

The question put is reasonable however in defining a "moral life" you have to ask "by who's standard?" Since man's standards are ever changing you can't rely on that measuring stick as a ticket to heaven.  I'm sure plenty of people believe they are moral, people who by any rational perspective are hardly paragons of virtue. What was acceptable by some in the 1900's is now taboo in the 21st century.

Since God is pure truth and pure love, that is the standard we are judged by. As a Christian, I know that God's standards are an impossible measure that I cannot meet, no matter how much I try. Only through the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ am I considered blameless and acceptable to a holy God. It is if as at a capital trial, God is to sentence me for my crimes, but Christ stands up and accepts my just deserved punishment in my place instead of me.

God hasn't sent anyone to the hot house. Never has, never will. After a lifetime of rejection on earth, a God of love wouldn't force someone to spend eternity living with him. Instead of bending one's life to the will of God as Christians are supposed to saying "Thy will be done", he answers the sinners request - "my will be done", in heaven as it was on earth.

There are plenty of proofs for the existence of a creator. Even at 4x billion years, there isn't enough time or the right conditions to create life out of non-life. Does that disprove evolution? Not really. Micro-evolution is evident today with dogs, cats, birds, all living things changing within their species. Macro-evolution with dinosaurs becoming birds, men evolving from lower species, nope. Was the world created in 6,000 years (Young Earth'ers) or 6 epochs (the "Gap Theory") or 6 literal days? Yes. A creator God could have spoke the universe into existance any or all of these ways. It takes far more faith than I have to believe that as a result of random happenstance over time we have complex and spontaneous life.

Don't know it TI's server space will have enough room for this thread. We'll see. It's been a while since one was locked down.

I agree with everything you said about this except for the macro-evolution part...not reason why God can't employ macro-evolution as a way to create human beings as we know it.  I do not believe Genesis 1-3 is meant to be literal in anyway.

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Re: God?
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2014, 03:16:53 PM »
From the theological argument: Macro-Evolution is not compatible with Judeo-Christianity. Man was created in the image of God and has a soul. Non-human life does not have a soul (with regrets I say this as I am an animal lover). Because of this, man cannot evolve from lesser animals who do not have souls. Man was uniquely created, set apart.

From the scientific argument - there hasn't been enough time when you lay out how long it would take to see an evolutionary leap, zero transitionary evidence, no "hopeful monsters" as some of the older theory's used to rely on. The bones we dig up show there are other versions of ape like creatures. That's a given. In 10,000 years there will be fossil evidence of the Black Rhino's, Passenger Pigeons, Dolphins and other exitinct animals, but that doesn't mean unique species lines sprung from them. To a Creationist, the "Lucy's" and other fossil records are simply additional versions of species we have around today that just didn't make it.

Out of order comes chaos, not the other way around as far as I can tell.   
 

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2014, 03:29:49 PM »
From the theological argument: Macro-Evolution is not compatible with Judeo-Christianity. Man was created in the image of God and has a soul. Non-human life does not have a soul (with regrets I say this as I am an animal lover). Because of this, man cannot evolve from lesser animals who do not have souls. Man was uniquely created, set apart.

From the scientific argument - there hasn't been enough time when you lay out how long it would take to see an evolutionary leap, zero transitionary evidence, no "hopeful monsters" as some of the older theory's used to rely on. The bones we dig up show there are other versions of ape like creatures. That's a given. In 10,000 years there will be fossil evidence of the Black Rhino's, Passenger Pigeons, Dolphins and other exitinct animals, but that doesn't mean unique species lines sprung from them. To a Creationist, the "Lucy's" and other fossil records are simply additional versions of species we have around today that just didn't make it.

Out of order comes chaos, not the other way around as far as I can tell.

Only if you read Genesis literally.  There are clear fossil records of Neanderthal and Homo erectus....yet they no longer exist today.  If you believe homo sapiens are what is meant as "man" in the Bible...what happened to those others?  Scientific evidence is also pretty clear that Neanderthals and Homo Sapien split off from a common ancestor about 500,000 years ago...you can see the transition from apes to homo sapiens physiologically...not so much mentally/psychologically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

I'm not a natural historian but if 95 percent of the scientific community is in agreement, I'm going with that until there is reason to consider the alternative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy

Again...the mechanism in which the modern day homo sapien developed can be evolutionary.  Once the development occurred, homo sapiens are very different from all other species for some unknown reason...that is the God factor.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 04:03:46 PM by Irvinecommuter »

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Re: God?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2014, 04:22:07 PM »
Again...the mechanism in which the modern day homo sapien developed can be evolutionary.  Once the development occurred, homo sapiens are very different from all other species for some unknown reason...that is the God factor.

Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?

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Re: God?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2014, 04:30:21 PM »
Again...the mechanism in which the modern day homo sapien developed can be evolutionary.  Once the development occurred, homo sapiens are very different from all other species for some unknown reason...that is the God factor.

Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?

If you believe in an all powerful God that is not bound by time, a human billion year could just a be a blink of an eye for God.  If God is not bound by time, He can compress, expand, travel, move back and forth between time etc, then creation and evolution theory can both be plausible without being contradicting one another.


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Re: God?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2014, 04:39:58 PM »
I don't think morality, at least in the US, is subjective.

Laws and rules define can define what morality is. Morality, in a sense, is encouraged in school.

Morality can be taught and learned without religion, but not sure if you can fully understand morality without a sense of a higher power.
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2014, 04:42:08 PM »
I don't think morality, at least in the US, is subjective.

Laws and rules define can define what morality is. Morality, in a sense, is encouraged in school.

Morality can be taught and learned without religion, but not sure if you can fully understand morality without a sense of a higher power.

Morality is absolutely subjective in this country.  Gay marriage for example..adultery is another. 

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Re: God?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2014, 04:44:06 PM »
Again...the mechanism in which the modern day homo sapien developed can be evolutionary.  Once the development occurred, homo sapiens are very different from all other species for some unknown reason...that is the God factor.

Are you suggesting that it took God billions of years to create homo sapiens?

Sure...why not?  I don't know why God chose to make modern humans in this fashion but he did...it's nothing to Him as he is timeless and omnipotent.  But the point is that evolution doesn't trip up God...it's our attempts to understand him that gets tripped up.

I mean, human have spends thousands of years and untold paper/ink/data to explain how human can to be.  The Bible does it in two chapters.  I mean it would make no sense to anyone living before 20th century to explain the process in any further detail.

http://www.rareuniverse.org/timeline.html
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 04:56:11 PM by Irvinecommuter »

 

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