Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes, I am Christian
15 (40.5%)
Yes, I am a non-Christian
3 (8.1%)
Yes, but I am non-religious
2 (5.4%)
No, but I believe in a higher power
6 (16.2%)
No, not at all
11 (29.7%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: God?  (Read 26835 times)

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Offline .

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Re: God?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2014, 09:27:30 AM »
i am almost Atheists and maybe a little bit of buddhism.  i dont believe in god.  however, when i go to the temple with my family, i will kneel down and pray.

on the other hand, i love religious people.  One of my friend never drink alcohol because he thinks bible forbid him.

I am curious why you do not believe in a god.

same here, i am also curious why you believe in god. 
how do you know if god exist?

btw, as i mentioned in my previous post, i love religious people and i love YOU.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2014, 09:43:11 AM »
Arguments for a "God":

  • This earth works too well to be created by chance. When we find the Egyptian pyramids, do we think they were created by chance?
  • Life (including insects) is so incredible that science has not come even close to duplicating it.

Arguments against a "God":
  • Who created him?
  • Why is there a lot of suffering in this world if he is all powerful?

Well...if you believe in God, there is no need for him to be created.  He just exists.

According to Christian viewpoint, there are a lot of suffering in this world due to God allowing humans to have free will.

Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2014, 09:44:53 AM »
i am almost Atheists and maybe a little bit of buddhism.  i dont believe in god.  however, when i go to the temple with my family, i will kneel down and pray.

on the other hand, i love religious people.  One of my friend never drink alcohol because he thinks bible forbid him.

I am curious why you do not believe in a god.

same here, i am also curious why you believe in god. 
how do you know if god exist?

btw, as i mentioned in my previous post, i love religious people and i love YOU.

Well...on a logical standpoint, it makes sense that a god exists.  The universe by definition is made up of stuff...something or someone had to create all that stuff.   Additionally, things like the existence of things like love, creativity, and the uniqueness of human beings that point to the existence of something beyond scientific explanation. There are a lot more non-logical reasons but that doesn't convince a non-believer.

Why do you need to know if God "really" exists?  It's an issue of faith.  It's the result of free will.

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2014, 09:45:19 AM »
I just want to also say that I am not judging anyone who posts in this thread.

What you believe in is what you believe in and I am not in a position to determine if there is a right or wrong answer.

We all have our opinions and I respect anyone who is willing to share theirs.

To touch on qwerchete's comment:

My belief is people fear the unknown and believing in God/religion alleviates that fear because the unknown is now attributed to gods doing. They have a leader that will show them the way and give them hope

This intrinsic desire to find a solution or an answer for what is unknown, even science's quest for knowledge, do you think that indicates a deity at work? Does that indicate to you that this curiosity is proof that a higher power exists? Or is that the chicken/egg conundrum where because man can't fully answer these questions, he attributes that to a "God"?

My question is this:

If God/god/gods/Mother Nature/[?] do exist, for anyone who doesn't believe in the *correct version*, what happens to them when they die?

Although in Christianity, the belief is only through Jesus can a man be saved, it's hard for me to fathom that anyone who leads a moral, charitable life will end up in "the hot house".
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2014, 09:51:02 AM »
I just want to also say that I am not judging anyone who posts in this thread.

What you believe in is what you believe in and I am not in a position to determine if there is a right or wrong answer.

We all have our opinions and I respect anyone who is willing to share theirs.

To touch on qwerchete's comment:

My belief is people fear the unknown and believing in God/religion alleviates that fear because the unknown is now attributed to gods doing. They have a leader that will show them the way and give them hope

This intrinsic desire to find a solution or an answer for what is unknown, even science's quest for knowledge, do you think that indicates a deity at work? Does that indicate to you that this curiosity is proof that a higher power exists? Or is that the chicken/egg conundrum where because man can't fully answer these questions, he attributes that to a "God"?

My question is this:

If God/god/gods/Mother Nature/[?] do exist, for anyone who doesn't believe in the *correct version*, what happens to them when they die?

Although in Christianity, the belief is only through Jesus can a man be saved, it's hard for me to fathom that anyone who leads a moral, charitable life will end up in "the hot house".

Because it's the "fairest" way to judge someone.  People do good and bad things all the time.  People are born into ailments and situations that are not of their choosing and often dictate how they act and who they are.  My daughter is growing up in a upper-middle class neighborhood with two loving parents and lots of care.  She has a much better chance of succeeding than someone who grew up in a poor area surrounded by drugs and violence.   This also means that my daughter as a better chance of doing "good" things.

Take for example, child molestors are often victims of molestation.  Now, some overcome that trauma but many don't.  Is it "fair" to judge them as bad if they grew up to be child molestors?  Or mass shooters suffer from mental illness...is it fair to judge them on that?

Also...I think the best explanation of Hell I have heard is that it is not a burn pot of fire...it's a place that is without God and all the things that are good in this world such as love and compassion.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 09:57:28 AM by Irvinecommuter »

Offline The California Court Company

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Re: God?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2014, 10:17:49 AM »
If you are interested in this debate, you can try renting the movie, God's Not Dead
It is produced by a Christian film company.

A lot of arguments for and against are discussed in the movie.
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Offline HomeOwner Irvine

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Re: God?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2014, 11:48:10 AM »
Arguments for a "God":

  • This earth works too well to be created by chance. When we find the Egyptian pyramids, do we think they were created by chance?
  • Life (including insects) is so incredible that science has not come even close to duplicating it.

Both these arguments can be rebuffed.

  • Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. Universe about 13.8 billion years old. Life has evolved over millions of years. Egyptians and other ancient civilizations studied the cosmos and built the pyramids through a lot of hard work and observation. This can be explained about a lot of other such buildings that were built to align with cosmological bodies.
  • Again, life forms on earth are primitive and have evolved over billions of years. The 1st known life form existed 3.6 billion years ago and the 1st human is known to have evolved about 2.5 million years ago. You might want to look at the cosmic calendar of Carl Sagan that shows how young humans are on a cosmic scale. Link to cosmic calendar http://www.cybermaze.com/astro/cosmiccal.html.

    So to counter the point, even for a simple life form to exist, it took over 2 billion years on earth, us humans have been only around for 2.5 million years which is why our science is not advanced enough to duplicate complex life forms yet. Although we can "clone" complex cells, "grow" things from scratch, but we are far far away from creating complex life. But this will come eventually as our science progresses.

Effectively as qwerty pointed out anything unknown / unexplainable to science is explained using God and religion. This is to answer questions to more complex questions (life, death, purpose, etc.) that us humans try to answer. Believing in God / religion for most people is to explain the unexplainable. No one has said this more effectively than Einstein, who did not believe in a personal God, but a pantheistic one. He has been quoted as saying the following in relation to his beliefs of a God, "an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2014, 11:57:44 AM »
Effectively as qwerty pointed out anything unknown / unexplainable to science is explained using God and religion. This is to answer questions to more complex questions (life, death, purpose, etc.) that us humans try to answer. Believing in God / religion for most people is to explain the unexplainable. No one has said this more effectively than Einstein, who did not believe in a personal God, but a pantheistic one. He has been quoted as saying the following in relation to his beliefs of a God, "an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
But even a pantheistic one is still a "God".

One more wrench:

I don't believe any of the main religions discuss life on other planets (except maybe Scientology).

However, many "intellectuals" do believe there is life out there (which is understandable considering the odds). How can they believe that because like God, they have no concrete  evidence?
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Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2014, 12:01:52 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.
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Offline HomeOwner Irvine

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Re: God?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2014, 12:13:31 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 

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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2014, 12:16:12 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 

If you make the decision that there is a god, then it is up to you decide which one is "right". 

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Re: God?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2014, 12:25:21 PM »

But even a pantheistic one is still a "God".

One more wrench:

I don't believe any of the main religions discuss life on other planets (except maybe Scientology).

However, many "intellectuals" do believe there is life out there (which is understandable considering the odds). How can they believe that because like God, they have no concrete  evidence?

Most intellectuals argue about the possibility given the probabilistic chance. If one thinks that life is special to earth and cannot exist anywhere else given the vastness of the unexplored universe or in fact our own solar system, one has to be an egoist. Some interesting links below about life in the universe -

Stephen Hawkings take - http://www.hawking.org.uk/life-in-the-universe.html
Drake Equation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
Ferni Paradox (against Drake Equation) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Interesting debate for SETI (Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence)
 A Critique of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence - http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~pine/mayr.htm
In Defense of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence - http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~pine/sagan.html

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Re: God?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 12:26:10 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 

If you make the decision that there is a god, then it is up to you decide which one is "right".

But then it would defeat the purpose if you pick the wrong one, i.e. end up in hell.

Offline irvinehomeowner

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Re: God?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 12:27:53 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 
Ahh, so that's what it's called.

And yes, I posted that question earlier... what if you chose the "wrong" deity?

Or what if you choose no deity but still live a moral and giving life?
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Offline Irvinecommuter

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Re: God?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2014, 12:30:42 PM »
I forgot who said this, but I think I saw it on a TV show or something and someone said it's better to believe in God than to not believe.

If you believe in God and there is none, oh well... but if you don't believe in God, and there is one, oh hell.

Didn't mean to thank, but quote.

You are referring to Pascal's wager. It in itself does not prove God or it's existence, but the stacks it against the probability of finding heaven or hell against a finite loss (giving up certain things for eternity in heaven of hell shall God exist). This argument is based on thinking that there is only 1 God of a certain religion and that you picked the correct God to believe in. The flaw is that the concept of heaven or hell is based on religions and not associated with the thinking of God. If merely going to heaven is a motive you have to "choose" the right God to believe in. What if you believe in the Christian God and only a Muslim God exists or one of the Norse Gods (Odin or Thor) or pick any other religion? Just because one wants to go to a supposed heaven believing in a God is not the best thing to do. In fact, scriptures for most religions forbid believing in any God but theirs and banishes the others or non-believers of their God to hell.

 

If you make the decision that there is a god, then it is up to you decide which one is "right".

But then it would defeat the purpose if you pick the wrong one, i.e. end up in hell.

Your purpose shouldn't be to hedge your bets.  If you believe there is a god and you want a relationship of some sort with him/her, you should focus on that.   My personal inclination and belief that Christianity is unique in both philosophy and experience.

 

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