Talk Irvine

General => Water Cooler => Topic started by: Soylent Green Is People on August 05, 2019, 12:34:20 PM

Title: HK and PRC
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on August 05, 2019, 12:34:20 PM
Haven't found an ongoing thread on this here, and perhaps it's not the right place to do so, but .....

Given news reports anyone think the current HK protests will fade away, similar to the French Yellow Vests, or will this turn into some kind of invasion to stomp out the protests? Is there a difference between what one can find on line compared to what is actually going on as per family or friends in HK?

My .02c
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: MTalltheway on August 05, 2019, 04:00:33 PM
Originally from HK here, my own family has had really bad experiences (to put it lightly) with the Communist party's human rights record (see bookstore owners, activists, or anybody else daring to exercise their free speech rights being kidnapped, tortured, and harvested for their organs). This is the same party that confiscated my grandmother's family farm & their livestock in the 1950's just because they were "capitalist pigs" for owning something at all.

In many ways it's a legacy of the Communist Cultural Revolution that really destroyed the traditional Confucian values that the country had prior. My heart goes out to those in HK who live under that regime's foot as the last of the non-Communist Chinese on the actual mainland. It's only expected to get worse.

Regarding the protests... Talking with relatives there, it seems like more and more of the youth are getting dissatisfied with the continuing de facto degradation of the 1 country, 2 systems agreement and all of the other deleterious socio-economic effects that implies. I'm very lucky to have made it to the U.S., but I know I'd feel exactly the same way if I hadn't moved.

Moving on, the stories in the HK free press (as opposed to the Communist mouthpieces) are pretty accurate to what they're seeing on the ground. It must be mentioned that the government controlled publications are deliberately trying to laser focus on "bad elements" of the protests, including only the most violent protesters who are a very small minority in reality. In fact some of the students they know are saying that many of the worst instigators are actually hired & paid by the Communists to give a bad name to the rest of the group. Most recently it's been proven through both independent media investigation and police arrests of some Triad gang members that they're being organized & funded by outside forces.

Overall, the protests are getting huge in numbers as many of those youth formerly on the sidelines or who are just coming into maturity now have started actively participating in the protests, based on a fear of not only HK's future, but also their own personal futures (disenfranchisement) with the looming 2047 deadline of the joint Sino-British treaty. After that, they expect that the Communist party will do away with democratic government.



Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on August 05, 2019, 04:55:49 PM
Which English Language news orgs would you find best to follow on this - BBC, ABC (Australia), NHK World, CNA?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: MTalltheway on August 05, 2019, 05:01:41 PM
I find that HKFP is very good, they all write in English and they're a nonprofit group of independent journalists who aren't regime mouthpieces.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/

Here's a great quote during their interview of artist Ai Weiwei:

"This is why I believe the Hong Kong demonstrations are the most beautiful. They are so peaceful, rational, and those taking part are so young. It is very different from most demonstrations elsewhere. Those are usually oriented around a shared political agenda. But the people marching in the streets of Hong Kong are there for freedom. It is abstract, but at the same time it relates to everyone and it definitely relates to the values I treasure most...China faces a massive problem if the youth of Hong Kong continues to protest. It is a challenge that alarms the rest of the world as to what kind of society China is. If they don’t stop the protests, the democratic voice will get louder and there will be better conditions for freedom. But how can they stop them? Hong Kong is not just another Chinese city. If that were the case, the military would have moved in and crushed it immediately. There would not be any media coverage or international attention. This already happens all the time in China. Hong Kong is different. It still has its recent history as a British colony, reflected in its adherence to the rule of law, its independent judiciary, and relatively wide range of political freedoms."
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 11:35:17 AM
china starting to feel the heat.  tiananmen 2.0 incoming?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: zubs on August 13, 2019, 11:43:06 AM
This is why I would support Trump.  He is weakening China with the Tariffs.
If we had a different president they would be too pussy shit to do it.

This is a headline on yahoo news:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cathay-falls-faces-china-wrath-031506362.html (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cathay-falls-faces-china-wrath-031506362.html)


Any employee of Cathay Pacific caught supporting the HK protesters will be fired.  <--This is such a vile affront to human rights.


This kind of shit needs to be addressed, and if we have to elect a racist blow hard shit head to weaken China, so be it.  In situations like these, obama and kumbaya policies ain't gonna cut it.


Perhaps the problem with the democratic party is too much empathy....
Don't care what other people think do things that will help yourself first.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 12:14:33 PM
Perhaps the problem with the democratic party is too much empathy....
Don't care what other people think do things that will help yourself first.

woah, careful now...you're starting to sound like a white nationalist
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: zubs on August 13, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
Perhaps the problem with the democratic party is too much empathy....
Don't care what other people think do things that will help yourself first.

woah, careful now...you're starting to sound like a white nationalist

I'm racist so it's ok.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 13, 2019, 12:20:26 PM
Perhaps the problem with the democratic party is too much empathy....
Don't care what other people think do things that will help yourself first.

woah, careful now...you're starting to sound like a white nationalist

I'm racist so it's ok.

Under the new definition...who isn't? We are all Cakeists now.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 13, 2019, 12:34:27 PM
This is why I would support Trump.  He is weakening China with the Tariffs.

Is it really weakening China? Even at 25% more, people still tell me it's cheaper than trying to manufacture domestically.

Quote
This kind of shit needs to be addressed, and if we have to elect a racist blow hard shit head to weaken China, so be it.  In situations like these, obama and kumbaya policies ain't gonna cut it.

Is there any other policy that would work? I agree that there are some things that I like Trump doing, but what else? Not sure if tariffs or anything else for that matter will change hundreds of years of political/cultural history.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 13, 2019, 12:41:01 PM
No one has really tried it this way...let's see if it works.

China Strikes Back—Sort Of
Beijing is feeling the pain of American tariffs but doesn’t want to lose face.

China has upped the ante in its trade dispute with the United States. By allowing the yuan to fall on foreign exchange markets, Beijing has shown how far it will go in response to existing U.S. tariffs on Chinese goods, as well as additional ones now threatened by President Trump. (Today, the White House announced that these new tariffs would go forward as expected on September 1 but delayed levies on certain products, including electronics, until December.) But China’s moves, bold and headline-grabbing as they are, also signal weakness: Beijing can no longer play the tit-for-tat tariff game with which it once engaged the Trump White House. And because the devaluation has raised the risk of capital flight from China (and with it, longer-term economic difficulties), the currency move also hints at desperation to find immediate relief from the economic pain that the tariffs are inflicting.

https://www.city-journal.org/tariiffs-yuan-exchange-rate (https://www.city-journal.org/tariiffs-yuan-exchange-rate)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Happiness on August 13, 2019, 12:46:12 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 13, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
So let's get philosophical... is the rest of the world promoting communism for China? Because we all use China for the majority of manufacturing, are we enabling them to keep their status quo?

I'd like to hear if anyone here actually supports the Chinese government/way of life. It would seem that there is a large number that don't or else why would they come to the US? But at the same time, it seems there is large number that do because they are in the "privileged class" and don't want to upset the apple cart.

Like where do most Chinese FCBs who buy in Irvine fall? The Haves or the Have Nots?

Does that mean Irvine is supporting Communism? :)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 13, 2019, 12:51:58 PM
Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

I don't think that's comparable... Mexico <> China.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 01:11:43 PM
the rest of the world has been turning a blind eye to china for years and their economy of smoke and mirrors with government tentacles in anything and everything is only as powerful as long as the rest of the world desires their slave labor-made products.  on top of that, so long as corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, they will be stuck with their golden handcuffs manufacturing their goods in china.

so how do we fix this?  china isn't going to change and patty cake for the past 30 years with china hasn't worked.  trump's tariff approach appears to be the only solution by making it more expensive for goods to come out of china.  "oh but the consumers pay the tariffs!" yeah, to a certain extent.  what happens when we have 100% tariffs?
 consumers won't buy those products and we will see an inflection point where the golden handcuffs start to come off as other countries, maybe even the US, become competitive in manufacturing.  this is the end game and one that will topple the entire chinese empire if it comes to fruition.  china will fold on tariffs when trump wins in 2020.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Happiness on August 13, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
So let's get philosophical... is the rest of the world promoting communism for China? Because we all use China for the majority of manufacturing, are we enabling them to keep their status quo?

I'd like to hear if anyone here actually supports the Chinese government/way of life. It would seem that there is a large number that don't or else why would they come to the US? But at the same time, it seems there is large number that do because they are in the "privileged class" and don't want to upset the apple cart.

Like where do most Chinese FCBs who buy in Irvine fall? The Haves or the Have Nots?

Does that mean Irvine is supporting Communism? :)
There are many people in mainland China who believe in freedom of expression, government by the consent of the people, the rule of law, and human rights. The concentration camps in China are full of these people. 

Where do FCB's in Irvine fall? In socialist counties, distribution of wealth is controlled by the state, so if you have enough wealth to buy an Irvine home, then you are by definition a supporter of communism.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 01:15:32 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 01:36:50 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 13, 2019, 01:56:24 PM
And why do you always try (and fail) to drag QWERTY into your accusations?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 01:59:06 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?

Mexico has nothing to do with the Chinese tarriffs. (It’s the classic tactic bringing Mexico in the conversation which is a stretch)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 02:00:09 PM
When the grass is cut, the snakes will show.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 02:03:12 PM
And why do you always try (and fail) to drag QWERTY into your accusations?

I’ll say what I’ll say. Do you think it’s okay to pick on Mexicans? Maybe I should pick on Philippines like where your family is from.

So let’s talk about Coffee Bean. Guess who just bought Cofeee Bean.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 13, 2019, 02:11:02 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?

Mexico has nothing to do with the Chinese tarriffs. (It’s the classic tactic bringing Mexico in the conversation which is a stretch)

To be fair, Happiness was addressing the concept of the effectiveness of *tariffs*.

While I find it difficult to compare Mexico to China in this regard, I am also unsure how this demonstrates any "hate" by Happiness.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?

Mexico has nothing to do with the Chinese tarriffs. (It’s the classic tactic bringing Mexico in the conversation which is a stretch)

except they do have to do with chinese tariffs.  have you forgotten all the winning?

Quote
Trump Says Mexico Tariffs Worked, Emboldening Trade Fight With China

WASHINGTON — President Trump has concluded his tariff threat worked and forced Mexico to stop the flow of migrants. On Monday, he pivoted back to his trade fight with China and vowed to hit Beijing with more tariffs if it did not accede to America’s trade demands.

“The China deal’s going to work out,” Mr. Trump said in an interview on CNBC. “You know why? Because of tariffs. Because right now China is getting absolutely decimated by companies that are leaving China, going to other countries, including our own, because they don’t want to pay the tariffs.”

The president has long favored tariffs as an immediate and unilateral policy tool. But his increasing confidence that the levies have helped accomplish his goals without harming the United States sets up an even more tumultuous period ahead for businesses, consumers and foreign countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/politics/trump-mexico-tariffs-china.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/politics/trump-mexico-tariffs-china.html)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 02:14:38 PM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?

Mexico has nothing to do with the Chinese tarriffs. (It’s the classic tactic bringing Mexico in the conversation which is a stretch)

To be fair, Happiness was addressing the concept of the effectiveness of *tariffs*.

While I find it difficult to compare Mexico to China in this regard, I am also unsure how this demonstrates any "hate" by Happiness.

It’s a combination of his posts. But do you see what he’s doing. It’s like a dual post. Talks about China and then out of no where talk about Mexico. Saying this and that about Mexico. How does he know they haven’t enforced their border?

Regarding tarriffs who’s paying for it? Trump says China
But in actuality it’s the American consumers
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 13, 2019, 02:15:26 PM
And why do you always try (and fail) to drag QWERTY into your accusations?

I’ll say what I’ll say. Do you think it’s okay to pick on Mexicans? Maybe I should pick on Philippines like where your family is from.

So let’s talk about Coffee Bean. Guess who just bought Cofeee Bean.

Yes,  but I do know the guys at Jolli bee who did, and yes I do love a good Pilipino  joke...if you know one.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: nosuchreality on August 13, 2019, 02:21:32 PM
Minor nit, the Yellow Vest Protests in Europe haven't died out.  Coverage has but the movement rages on. 

China, Europe, illegal immigration shell games in the USA its just corruption and money.

Hong Kong, those kids have a reason to be scared, Chinacgets their way, they won't even have the facade of freedom.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 02:23:54 PM
Minor nit, the Yellow Vest Protests in Europe haven't died out.  Coverage has but the movement rages on. 

China, Europe, illegal immigration shell games in the USA its just corruption and money.

Your right business like and want the cheap labor. But doesn’t say one word regarding immigration.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
conspiracy theory: the US has people on the ground, covertly leading or helping facilitate the protests in hk as a means to create unrest and forcing china's hand

who says nay?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: nosuchreality on August 13, 2019, 02:27:10 PM
Minor nit, the Yellow Vest Protests in Europe haven't died out.  Coverage has but the movement rages on. 

China, Europe, illegal immigration shell games in the USA its just corruption and money.

Your right business like and want the cheap labor. But doesn’t say one word regarding immigration.

Illegal immigration is drivsn by two factors, desperation and ready employment exploitation of that desperation.  Orange jumpsuits of C-levels resolves it quickly.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 13, 2019, 02:43:24 PM
Minor nit, the Yellow Vest Protests in Europe haven't died out.  Coverage has but the movement rages on. 

China, Europe, illegal immigration shell games in the USA its just corruption and money.

Your right business like and want the cheap labor. But doesn’t say one word regarding immigration.

Illegal immigration is drivsn by two factors, desperation and ready employment exploitation of that desperation.  Orange jumpsuits of C-levels resolves it quickly.

Correct raiding a HQ for employment HR records will send a message.

Currently they are only rounding up the workers. How about the people who employ them?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: momopi on August 13, 2019, 03:28:26 PM
conspiracy theory: the US has people on the ground, covertly leading or helping facilitate the protests in hk as a means to create unrest and forcing china's hand
who says nay?

It's not really necessary for foreign agents to instigate.  Incidents like this is the result of years of pressure, anxiety, and discontent boiling over.  Prior to Tienanmen Square protest in 1989 was decade long high inflation (1979-1989), reaching 10% in 1985 and by 1988-1989, 18%.  People in Hong Kong have long been squeezed in the unaffordable real estate market, with rent control lifted in 1988 and stories of landlord increasing rent by 30% in a year.  Young adults working their butts off in school and job have poor prospects of ever affording their own home, with end of HK SAR self-rule in 2047 and HK's dependency on Mainland China for everything from utilities to groceries, it's not a very bright future.  Quoting from a protester, they have to ask for the sky to get a small window.

My wife's side of family is Cantonese and has relatives in HK.  I told her cousins to consider relocating to Singapore or Taiwan.  In Singapore Lee Kuan Yew made it very clear that housing was for the people, and they have a fairly successful public housing policy.  In Taiwan we have over 1 million empty homes as young people move to cities and old folks die off in small towns.  If you're able to work remotely, there are many inexpensive housing avail.  The average price of a home in HK is $1.2 million USD.  In Taiwan you can get a 3 bed condo near Su-ao in Yilan for 10% of that -- $120,000.

As for Trump, he is an Europhile and pragmatic businessman.  Trump is not a white supremacist but will appeal to his white voter base.  He is not into guns or hunting (he oppose hunting) but will appeal to Pro-2A supporters.   He wants a "win" with China today while his staff who wanted a comprehensive long-term China engagement strategy get sent out the revolving door every x months.  Xi and the CCP Leadership on the other hand has to prioritize survival, as they have no exit career options.  Monarchs today who have lost political power can still fight to remain relevant, Xi doesn't have that luxury -- everything else is a nice to have, but expendable when necessary.  Even within CCP power transitions, people who worked for the previous boss and lived it up get sent to chopping block by new leadership.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: Kings on August 13, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
conspiracy theory: the US has people on the ground, covertly leading or helping facilitate the protests in hk as a means to create unrest and forcing china's hand
who says nay?

It's not really necessary for foreign agents to instigate.  Incidents like this is the result of years of pressure, anxiety, and discontent boiling over.  Prior to Tienanmen Square protest in 1989 was decade long high inflation (1979-1989), reaching 10% in 1985 and by 1988-1989, 18%.  People in Hong Kong have long been squeezed in the unaffordable real estate market, with rent control lifted in 1988 and stories of landlord increasing rent by 30% in a year.  Young adults working their butts off in school and job have poor prospects of ever affording their own home, with end of HK SAR self-rule in 2047 and HK's dependency on Mainland China for everything from utilities to groceries, it's not a very bright future.  Quoting from a protester, they have to ask for the sky to get a small window.

My wife's side of family is Cantonese and has relatives in HK.  I told her cousins to consider relocating to Singapore or Taiwan.  In Singapore Lee Kuan Yew made it very clear that housing was for the people, and they have a fairly successful public housing policy.  In Taiwan we have over 1 million empty homes as young people move to cities and old folks die off in small towns.  If you're able to work remotely, there are many inexpensive housing avail.

As for Trump, he is an Europhile and pragmatic businessman.  Trump is not a white supremacist but will appeal to his white voter base.  He is not into guns or hunting (he oppose hunting) but will appeal to Pro-2A supporters.   He wants a "win" with China today while his staff who wanted a comprehensive long-term China engagement strategy get sent out the revolving door every x months.  Xi and the CCP Leadership on the other hand has to prioritize survival, as they have no exit career options.  Monarchs today who have lost political power can still fight to remain relevant, Xi doesn't have that luxury -- everything else is a nice to have, but expendable when necessary.

fair points. how do you see this ending?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: momopi on August 13, 2019, 03:59:32 PM
fair points. how do you see this ending?

Realistically, I don't expect a good ending.  Even if Carrie Lam resigns and Beijing backs off, Hong Kong's problems cannot easily be resolved even with local democratically elect government due to influence from the tycoons.  As Taiwan's birth rate declines to 1.2 child/women, I think immigration of  young folks from Hong Kong to Taiwan is one possible intermediate solution.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: nosuchreality on August 13, 2019, 04:57:34 PM
Minor nit, the Yellow Vest Protests in Europe haven't died out.  Coverage has but the movement rages on. 

China, Europe, illegal immigration shell games in the USA its just corruption and money.

Your right business like and want the cheap labor. But doesn’t say one word regarding immigration.

Illegal immigration is drivsn by two factors, desperation and ready employment exploitation of that desperation.  Orange jumpsuits of C-levels resolves it quickly.

Correct raiding a HQ for employment HR records will send a message.

Currently they are only rounding up the workers. How about the people who employ them?


They need to play connect the dots, tie the companies to the 3rd party providers that in turn place the ads in countries south of the border and then frankly  bust all the US Citizens involved under RICO.

Of course for real shitz and gigglez you make the fall guy one of mid-level ICE bureaucrats who allegedly help keep the employees in their place with well placed round ups of problem employees and the C-levels can take a cushy plea deal for ratting out the corrupt official.

Then the other c-levels can clean up and save face.

Wait a minute, wasn't I just bagging on China?


 
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 14, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
The Chinese Communist Party has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of engaging in unfair trading practices, getting called on it by the US, promising to change things, and then doing nothing. It will be interesting to see if Trump’s tariff will be able to hold the Chinese to their commitments.

Mexico has had a couple decades with “conventional” US presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama of promising to enforce Mexican immigration laws and then doing nothing. Since Trump’s tariff threats, Mexico is now enforcing its own laws and dramatically curtailed the number of migrants transiting their territory towards the US.

Hopefully, the tariffs will work on the Chinese the same way they did on the Mexicans.

Wow. Another Latino hater.
I guess Qwerty knows who’s his friends are on TI. (or shall I say Amigos)  ;)

how is he a "latino hater"?

Mexico has nothing to do with the Chinese tarriffs. (It’s the classic tactic bringing Mexico in the conversation which is a stretch)

To be fair, Happiness was addressing the concept of the effectiveness of *tariffs*.

While I find it difficult to compare Mexico to China in this regard, I am also unsure how this demonstrates any "hate" by Happiness.

It’s a combination of his posts. But do you see what he’s doing. It’s like a dual post. Talks about China and then out of no where talk about Mexico. Saying this and that about Mexico. How does he know they haven’t enforced their border?


Sorry, I guess because I don't have any preconceptions with the poster, so I don't really see that. We were talking about methods to deal with issues with China, one of which is unfair trade (which also allows them to exploit their workers). Happiness contends that because threats of tariffs on Mexico has made them deal with immigration issues, that tariffs will help with the China issues.

I agree with you on how does Happiness know that it did help with the immigration issues (from what I've read, there were already policies negotiated prior to the threat of tariffs). Trump saying "it worked" doesn't count for me either.

But I don't see how that is "hate" on "Latinos", and I would hope we would all be more careful here with accusations of racism. As I said before, let's just try to discuss the topic/opinions, rather than make assumptions about the poster.

Quote
Regarding tarriffs who’s paying for it? Trump says China
But in actuality it’s the American consumers

Again, I agree. However, the theory is that American consumers will not want to continue paying more for China-originated goods due to the higher cost and by purchasing more either domestically or from other countries, that will put pressure on China to change their ways.

I'm just not sure if that's enough... even at 100% tariffs, from what I understand, it could still be cheaper and higher quality than other avenues.

For example, you make a gadget in China, it cost $1 and is very high quality and you can charge $15 for it. The same gadget, if made in California would cost $5 and may not be as good. If the cost for the gadget in China doubled or tripled and went to $2 or even $3... wouldn't you still buy it from China?

And American consumers seem to be willing to accept more expensive stuff anyways... iPhones cost more than $1000 and no one is blinking.

I really think change has to come from within China... and thanks to the Internet and global connectivity, hopefully that will happen... just not sure if it will in our lifetime.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 14, 2019, 09:38:52 AM
And why do you always try (and fail) to drag QWERTY into your accusations?

I’ll say what I’ll say. Do you think it’s okay to pick on Mexicans? Maybe I should pick on Philippines like where your family is from.

So let’s talk about Coffee Bean. Guess who just bought Cofeee Bean.

Yes,  but I do know the guys at Jolli bee who did, and yes I do love a good Pilipino  joke...if you know one.

You will defiantly not see me at a Coffee bean. Not at all. Better yet Jollybea. Not my type of chicken.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 14, 2019, 09:47:30 AM
Not aiming their marketing at you.  Flips love that place.  Only major burger franchise that beats McDonalds in their own country.  How many burger joints do you know with white rice on the sides menu?  They don't need you as a customer, they have lots.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 14, 2019, 10:02:32 AM
Not aiming their marketing at you.  Flips love that place.  Only major burger franchise that beats McDonalds in their own country.  How many burger joints do you know with white rice on the sides menu?  They don't need you as a customer, they have lots.

I disagree. The reason why they came to the US. Is to get a percentage of the fast food sector. In effect they came here for other people to buy their food. Which means to market to other people than from the Philippines. Trust me they are not big time in the US like you say they are. (Thanks to you this will be the new topic for me to talk about!)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 14, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
They have been here for years.  I was at the opening of their first store in Daly City...large Filipino population, lines around the block.  To this day it outperforms most all other fast food joints there.  Carson also has seen significant success.  The purchase of Coffee Bean offered an in place franchise that they could build a better US presence on.  They still focus mainly on heavy Filipino populated areas but now have a national presence they can make some inroads with. Its a long ball strategy.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: irvinehomeowner on August 14, 2019, 10:15:12 AM
@eyephone:

To clarify, I think morekaos meant that Jollibee is marketing to Filipinos in the US because in the Phillippines, Jollibee is more popular than McDonalds.

Obviously, you want to market to everyone in the US, but you can start with people who are familiar with your brand/food. Have you ever tried Luna Grill? Why are there so many in Irvine? Or Panini Kabob Grill?
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 14, 2019, 10:20:04 AM
Not aiming their marketing at you.  Flips love that place.  Only major burger franchise that beats McDonalds in their own country.  How many burger joints do you know with white rice on the sides menu?  They don't need you as a customer, they have lots.

I disagree. The reason why they came to the US. Is to get a percentage of the fast food sector. In effect they came here for other people to buy their food. Which means to market to other people than from the Philippines. Trust me they are not big time in the US like you say they are. (Thanks to you this will be the new topic for me to talk about!)

Source:Euro monitor, FT Article: Can Jollibee take a bite out of the global fast-food market?

Global fast food companies by sales (in billion dollars)
Using 2017 sales data:
McDonalds 86.02
Yum Brands (kfc, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell) 35.33
Restaurant Brands International (Burger King) 30.88
Doctor’s Associates (subway) 18.82
Dunkin Brands Group 11.21
Jollibee Foods 2.91

Website source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/1cdfd818-a9ca-11e8-89a1-e5de165fa619

Note: numbers might change since 2017 but just using public sales info from 2017 for discussion purposes

Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: momopi on August 14, 2019, 10:38:38 AM
I'm just not sure if that's enough... even at 100% tariffs, from what I understand, it could still be cheaper and higher quality than other avenues.
For example, you make a gadget in China, it cost $1 and is very high quality and you can charge $15 for it. The same gadget, if made in California would cost $5 and may not be as good. If the cost for the gadget in China doubled or tripled and went to $2 or even $3... wouldn't you still buy it from China?

Back in the 1990s when Compaq sourced external computer speakers from China, they told their supplier that they expect the price to be cut by 3% every quarter.  If the supplier is unable meet this condition, there are many others who would be happy to take the order.  The Chinese manufacturer was left to find ways to cut costs or die.  This is partially why after 20 years we still find a lot of low priced Made in China products at Walmart.  However, with rising wages in China it's getting harder and harder to compete against lower labor cost countries like Burma and Vietnam.

Also, there is no free lunch -- cost savings have to come from somewhere, and thus a lot of products are not built to quality or durability.  Sadly this plays into the planned obsolescence business model in America where products are made to be disposable and replaced cheaply.

There are some items built to quality in China, but they're not that cheap.  Quality made in USA straight blade buck knives will cost you $50 and up, versus acceptable quality (as tested by Russian customer hammering it against a wood log on Youtube) knife of similar size and function from China will cost you $25.  The $5 or $10 Made in China knife at Harbor freight wouldn't last 10 seconds when subjected to same test by hammer wielding Russian dude.  But retailers like Harbor freight would rather sell the $5 or $10 product that will break.
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: morekaos on August 14, 2019, 10:52:58 AM
I got off the phone this morning with one of my clients in China.  She is convinced the government will try to infiltrate the protesters with their own people the try to incite the mass which will give the government the excuse to tamp down the protest.  She says its an effective way to lay off the blame enough to justify action. She also thinks the protesters are smart enough to know this and will try to resist any overt actions.  how this turns put is still very much in the air but the difference between Tien Amen and now is the internet, social media and the inability of the government to control all the information...we shall see, this concerns me quite a bit more then today's buzz words (inverted yield curve)
Title: Re: HK and PRC
Post by: eyephone on August 14, 2019, 10:58:56 AM
Not aiming their marketing at you.  Flips love that place.  Only major burger franchise that beats McDonalds in their own country.  How many burger joints do you know with white rice on the sides menu?  They don't need you as a customer, they have lots.

I disagree. The reason why they came to the US. Is to get a percentage of the fast food sector. In effect they came here for other people to buy their food. Which means to market to other people than from the Philippines. Trust me they are not big time in the US like you say they are. (Thanks to you this will be the new topic for me to talk about!)

Source:Euro monitor, FT Article: Can Jollibee take a bite out of the global fast-food market?

Global fast food companies by sales (in billion dollars)
Using 2017 sales data:
McDonalds 86.02
Yum Brands (kfc, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell) 35.33
Restaurant Brands International (Burger King) 30.88
Doctor’s Associates (subway) 18.82
Dunkin Brands Group 11.21
Jollibee Foods 2.91

Website source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/1cdfd818-a9ca-11e8-89a1-e5de165fa619

Note: numbers might change since 2017 but just using public sales info from 2017 for discussion purposes

Wait till I post the market share result in the US burger market in 2017. Hint zilch
(I know they sell chicken and burgers, but at least like get 1%)