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General => Education => Topic started by: WTTCHMN on June 15, 2018, 03:43:09 PM

Title: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on June 15, 2018, 03:43:09 PM
Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans

In court papers, Arlington, Virginia-based Students for Fair Admissions said an Asian-American male applicant with a 25 percent chance of admission would have a 35 percent chance if he was white, 75 percent if he were Hispanic and a 95 percent chance if he were black.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-harvard-discrimination/harvard-records-show-discrimination-against-asian-americans-group-idUSKBN1JB1UF
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on June 15, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits

Asian-Americans scored higher than applicants of any other racial or ethnic group on admissions measures like test scores, grades and extracurricular activities, according to the analysis commissioned by a group that opposes all race-based admissions criteria. But the students’ personal ratings significantly dragged down their chances of being admitted, the analysis found.

The court documents, filed in federal court in Boston, also showed that Harvard conducted an internal investigation into its admissions policies in 2013 and found a bias against Asian-American applicants. But Harvard never made the findings public or acted on them.

Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Prof. Arcidiacono.

University officials did concede that its 2013 internal review found that if Harvard considered only academic achievement, the Asian-American share of the class would rise to 43 percent from the actual 19 percent.

What brought the Asian-American number down to roughly 18 percent, or about the actual share, was accounting for a category called “demographic,” the study found. This pushed up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans. The plaintiffs said this meant there was a penalty for being Asian-American.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: StarmanMBA on June 15, 2018, 04:11:32 PM
Public education is owned by liberals, and they have ruined it.

That is why the Clintons, and the Gores, and the Obamas all paid lip service to teachers' unions and inner city public schools, while all sent their children to private Sidwell Friends School. 

Edu-Hypocrisy big time.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Kings on June 15, 2018, 04:18:46 PM

What brought the Asian-American number down to roughly 18 percent, or about the actual share, was accounting for a category called “demographic,” the study found.

i think they misspelled "discrimination"
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on June 15, 2018, 04:30:00 PM
Public education is owned by liberals, and they have ruined it.

That is why the Clintons, and the Gores, and the Obamas all paid lip service to teachers' unions and inner city public schools, while all sent their children to private Sidwell Friends School. 

Edu-Hypocrisy big time.

What are you talking about? I am doubting you every time you make a post.
 
Trump went to a good university. (University of Pennsylvania-Wharton School of Business)

George W. Bush went Yale for his undergrad and MBA from Harvard.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Irvinecommuter on June 15, 2018, 05:14:17 PM
That's not discrimination...that just bad EQ.   We had this discussion before.  Cookie-cutter candidates...looks good on paper but poor skill sets outside of academics.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: fortune11 on June 15, 2018, 06:25:49 PM
Here is some affirmative action for you ...


“Scott Pruitt himself wanted to help his daughter get into UVA's elite law school. He placed a call to the former GOP speaker of the Virginia House, a UVA law school graduate, and ask him to weigh in with the UVA dean. His daughter got in. “

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/politics/scott-pruitt-epa-aides.html#click=https://t.co/kIglWv1tDQ
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on June 15, 2018, 09:49:00 PM
From the comments section of the NYT article:

"In the past, Asians were purportedly rejected because of too few extracurricular activities. Now that Asian students have well-rounded applications with leadership positions, sports, and multiple extracurricular activities, the new mode of discrimination is "poor personality"."

Title: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: WTTCHMN on June 25, 2018, 09:32:04 AM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html
Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: Kings on June 25, 2018, 10:17:33 AM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting? 
Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: Irvinecommuter on June 25, 2018, 01:10:48 PM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting?

Hmmm...job interviews?
Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: Kings on June 25, 2018, 01:43:12 PM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting?

Hmmm...job interviews?

job interviews are typically 3-4 stage interview process.  i don't think college interviews are the same considering the thousands of applicants versus a handful competing for a job?
Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: Irvinecommuter on June 25, 2018, 02:40:13 PM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting?

Hmmm...job interviews?

job interviews are typically 3-4 stage interview process.  i don't think college interviews are the same considering the thousands of applicants versus a handful competing for a job?

Most job interviews are an one-shot deal.  I am not sure why college admission are viewed differently than looking for jobs.
Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: misme on June 25, 2018, 02:45:13 PM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting?

Of course, "personality" is the most subjective rating of all, and highly dependent on how the interviewer clicks with the interviewee. The interviewer can not avoid bringing their own biases to the table.


Very similar to what Harvard and other Ivies did to Jews early in the 20th century to limit "unacceptably" high numbers of a minority group.





Title: Re: Harvard Says Asians Have Terrible Personalities
Post by: Irvinecommuter on June 25, 2018, 03:00:09 PM
Harvard says Asians Have Terrible Personalities

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

Quote
The report by the plaintiff’s expert witness, the Duke University economist Peter Arcidiacono, revealed that Harvard evaluated applicants on the extent to which they possessed the following traits: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Asian-Americans, who had the highest scores in both the academic and extracurricular ratings, lagged far behind all other racial groups in the degree to which they received high ratings on the personality score.

how do you evaluate someone on these "qualifications" in what i assume is a one time meeting?

Of course, "personality" is the most subjective rating of all, and highly dependent on how the interviewer clicks with the interviewee. The interviewer can not avoid bringing their own biases to the table.


Very similar to what Harvard and other Ivies did to Jews early in the 20th century to limit "unacceptably" high numbers of a minority group.

True but all standards for college admissions have problems of their own.   That's why you are supposed to view them in totality.   Again...there are multiple types of intelligence...focusing on academic intelligence is a poor way to admit students.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on July 29, 2018, 10:23:52 AM
‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions Secrets

He had perfect scores — on his SAT, on three SAT subject tests and on nine Advanced Placement exams — and was ranked first in his high school class of 592. An admissions officer who reviewed his application to Harvard called him “the proverbial picket fence,” the embodiment of the American dream, saying, “Someone we’ll fight over w/ Princeton, I’d guess.”

But in the end, the Asian student was wait-listed and did not get in.

Harvard’s much-feared admissions officers have a whole other set of boxes that few ambitious high school students and their parents know about — or could check even if they did. The officers speak a secret language — of “dockets,” “the lop list,” “tips,” “DE,” the “Z-list” and the “dean’s interest list” — and maintain a culling system in which factors like where applicants are from, whether their parents went to Harvard, how much money they have and how they fit the school’s goals for diversity may be just as important as scoring a perfect 1600 on the SAT.

The sorting begins right away. The country is divided into about 20 geographic “dockets,” each of which is assigned to a subcommittee of admissions officers with intimate knowledge of that region and its high schools.

Harvard says it also considers “tips,” or admissions advantages, for some applicants. The plaintiffs say the college gives tips to five groups: racial and ethnic minorities; legacies, or the children of Harvard or Radcliffe alumni; relatives of a Harvard donor; the children of staff or faculty members; and recruited athletes.

Whether Harvard gives a penalty — in effect, the opposite of a tip — to Asian-Americans goes to the heart of the current litigation. A 1990 report by the Education Department found that Harvard was not giving tips for being Asian-American. A 2013 internal report by Harvard found that being Asian-American was negatively correlated with admission, as did an expert analysis for the plaintiffs. But using a different statistical approach, Harvard’s expert found a modest bump for two subgroups of Asian-Americans — women and applicants from California — belying, Harvard said, the overall claim of discrimination.

There are other ways to bolster one’s chances of admission, according to the court papers. Savvy alumni hope to gain an advantage for their children by volunteering for Harvard, perhaps by being an admissions interviewer.

It also helps to secure a spot on the “dean’s interest list” or the “director’s interest list.” These are not the familiar lists from academic deans recognizing students with good grades. These lists are named for the dean and director of admissions, and include the names of candidates who are of interest to donors or have connections to Harvard, according to the court papers.

How about, the plaintiffs’ lawyer asked, “if a candidate is of interest to a donor to Harvard, is that something that might land them on the interest list?” Over another objection, Mr. Fitzsimmons replied, “It is possible.”

After an exchange running three fully blacked-out pages, Mr. Fitzsimmons explained that candidates on the dean’s list could receive a separate rating, in consultation with people connected to the alumni association and the development office, the chief fund-raising arm.

The plaintiffs’ lawyer asked, “And are you rating the applicant, or are you rating the level of interest that other people at the university have in this applicant’s admission prospect?”

Over an objection, Mr. Fitzsimmons replied, “The latter.”

The plaintiffs’ lawyer asked whether the bigger the financial contribution from a donor, the more it would affect the development office’s rating of someone on the dean’s list related to that donor. “It would tend to go that way,” Mr. Fitzsimmons replied.

Court filings also explore Harvard’s little-known Z-list, a sort of back door to admissions.

Harvard is reticent about the Z-list, and much of the information pertaining to it in court papers has been redacted. The list consists of applicants who are borderline academically, the plaintiffs say, but whom Harvard wants to admit. They often have connections. They may be “Z-ed” (yes, a verb) off the wait-list, and are guaranteed admission on the condition that they defer for a year.

Court papers describe a continuing process called “a lop,” which the plaintiffs say is used to shape the demographic profile of the class.

The plaintiffs say that admissions officers then fine-tune the final class using a form that lists five pieces of information about the applicant; they give an example of a form that has spaces for the applicant’s name, LIN (lineage), ETH (ethnicity), ATH (athlete), and HFAI (financial aid).

Along the way, Mr. Fitzsimmons, the dean, consults what are called “ethnic stats,” which he defines as “any statistics that would give us a sense of where we are in the class regarding ethnicity at that moment.” Ethnicity is one of many factors considered in a lop, Mr. Fitzsimmons said in his deposition.

The plaintiffs accuse Harvard of jiggering its selection process to create a remarkably stable racial profile from year to year. This year it admitted a class that was almost 23 percent Asian-American; almost 16 percent African-American; and just over 12 percent Latino. The share of admitted students who are Asian-American has risen from 17.6 percent in 2009, and other minorities have gained in concert.

But if Harvard were race-blind, the plaintiffs say, its freshman class would be about 40 percent Asian-American, like the University of California, Berkeley, a public institution that has to abide by a state ban on racial preferences.

The plaintiffs say that the personal rating — which considers an applicant’s character and personality — is the most insidious of Harvard’s admissions metrics. They say that Asian-Americans are routinely described as industrious and intelligent, but unexceptional and indistinguishable — characterizations that recall painful stereotypes for many people of Asian descent.

In the recently unredacted court filings, several Asian-American applicants were described in conspicuously similar terms. One was described as “busy and bright,” but the “case will look like many others without late info.” Another was “very busy” but “doesn’t go extra mile, thus she looks like many w/ this profile.” Yet another was “bright & busy” but it was “a bit difficult to see what would hold him in during a lop.”

One student was “so very bright but lacking a DE.” DE, the court papers say, stands for “distinguishing excellence.” Another got a backhanded compliment: “hard worker,” but “would she relax and have any fun?”

In Friday’s filing, Harvard countered with examples of its positive assessments of applicants of Nepalese, Tibetan, Vietnamese and Indian descent, who were described with words like “deserving,” “fascinating” and “Tug for BG,” an abbreviation for background. None of the examples the university gave appeared to be of applicants specifically of Chinese or Korean background.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/us/harvard-admissions-asian-americans.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on August 30, 2018, 07:21:12 PM
Justice Department sides with Asian-Americans suing Harvard over admissions policy

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/us/politics/asian-students-affirmative-action-harvard.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: qwerty on August 30, 2018, 08:40:21 PM
Good luck Asians.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: zubs on September 17, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
Today I came across a thread talking about Harvard admissions on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/9gf6y0/til_13_of_harvard_students_are_legacies/

Every few months this type of thread pops up.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 16, 2018, 09:09:54 PM
Harvard’s Uncle Tom:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/us/harvard-bill-lee.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Kings on October 17, 2018, 06:21:11 AM
Harvard’s Uncle Tom:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/us/harvard-bill-lee.html

Quote
A ruling against Harvard would send a strong message to institutions schooling the elite that merit should determine the future leaders of American society. A victory for Harvard would vindicate the university’s claim that it is motivated by a quest for an ideal, diverse society.

in other words, a ruling against harvard would send a message that if you work hard you should be rewarded.  a victory for harvard would mean you should "get out of here with your asian privilege"
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: freedomcm on October 17, 2018, 07:25:34 AM
or that when admitting students to an educational program, you should look at more than just test scores
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: nosuchreality on October 17, 2018, 07:34:44 AM
or that when admitting students to an educational program, you should look at more than just test scores


That unfortunately is the crux of the issue.  Harvard had 42,000 applicants. Schools like UCLA are even worse.  Of those applying to Harvard, probably north of 40,000 had test scores and class grades that indicate they could handle the curriculum.

Many want the 2400 test score to be admitted before the kid with 2370 or gasp, a 2200 even though the kid with the 2400 has had four if not more years of SAT boot camps to prepare for the test.

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 07:57:00 AM
or that when admitting students to an educational program, you should look at more than just test scores


That unfortunately is the crux of the issue.  Harvard had 42,000 applicants. Schools like UCLA are even worse.  Of those applying to Harvard, probably north of 40,000 had test scores and class grades that indicate they could handle the curriculum.

Many want the 2400 test score to be admitted before the kid with 2370 or gasp, a 2200 even though the kid with the 2400 has had four if not more years of SAT boot camps to prepare for the test.

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

Unfortunately, that is NOT the crux of this issue and to state so shows a gross misunderstanding of the case.

The issue at trial is whether Harvard systematically discriminated against Asians.

Yes, Asians in aggregate had higher grades and test scores, but also more extra-curricular activities and leadership roles than other ethnic groups.

Yet, inexplicably, they were uniformly rated lower in "personality" than whites and other ethnicities.

The plantiffs allege that Harvard used this fudge factor to discriminate against Asians and pull down their acceptance rate.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: nosuchreality on October 17, 2018, 08:24:05 AM
or that when admitting students to an educational program, you should look at more than just test scores


That unfortunately is the crux of the issue.  Harvard had 42,000 applicants. Schools like UCLA are even worse.  Of those applying to Harvard, probably north of 40,000 had test scores and class grades that indicate they could handle the curriculum.

Many want the 2400 test score to be admitted before the kid with 2370 or gasp, a 2200 even though the kid with the 2400 has had four if not more years of SAT boot camps to prepare for the test.

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

Unfortunately, that is NOT the crux of this issue and to state so shows a gross misunderstanding of the case.

The issue at trial is whether Harvard systematically discriminated against Asians.

Yes, Asians in aggregate had higher grades and test scores, but also more extra-curricular activities and leadership roles than other ethnic groups.

Yet, inexplicably, they were uniformly rated lower in "personality" than whites and other ethnicities.

The plantiffs allege that Harvard used this fudge factor to discriminate against Asians and pull down their acceptance rate.

Formulaic is not personality.  Following a checklist is neither original nor personality.

Seriously, look at Uni high and all the resume padding clubs.  That's what they really are, resume padding clubs.

Unfortunately, that means the people coming to interview the kids at Uni or the other area schools see a bunch of high achieving grinders that look very similar. 


Seriously, how many of the kids that graduated from Uni last year had the chops to actually do the curriculum at Harvard?  Each of them is a unique and precious California flower. 
(https://www.visitcalifornia.com/sites/default/files/styles/vca_card/public/California%20Poppy%20Festival%20%7C%20Apri.jpg)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 08:35:31 AM
or that when admitting students to an educational program, you should look at more than just test scores


That unfortunately is the crux of the issue.  Harvard had 42,000 applicants. Schools like UCLA are even worse.  Of those applying to Harvard, probably north of 40,000 had test scores and class grades that indicate they could handle the curriculum.

Many want the 2400 test score to be admitted before the kid with 2370 or gasp, a 2200 even though the kid with the 2400 has had four if not more years of SAT boot camps to prepare for the test.

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

there seems to be an unspoken assumption in this post and other posts that:

1) the only thing that Asian kids have going for them is high grades and test scores
2) the only reason why these high achieving Asian kids have these high test scores is because they went through years of SAT prep classes, giving them an unfair advantage and not a true representation of their abilities.
3) Asian kids come from rich families that are able to give them an unfair leg up with prep classes, tutoring, etc.

Wrong.

1) The Harvard applications of Asian kids have been shown to be higher achieving not only on academics but also extracurricular achievement. And on academics, its not just SAT and other standardized test scores, but other forms of academic achievement. Doing original research, getting published, winning national competitions, etc.  It is only through the use of "personality'' scorings that Harvard has managed to dock  their applications. Hmm, how much more subjective can you get? Believe me, you would be shocked at the way people talk when it comes time to discuss applicants at alumni interview committee. "this kid is incredible--how can they do it? They must be a robot, or have no social skills, because otherwise where do they find the time to do all this?" Again, lumping all Asians into one monolithic category.  It is beyond a doubt that Asian kids are held to a higher standard when we discuss the merits of individual applicants in committee. Sometimes it is very hard for an Asian high achiever to stand out as memorable from all the other superachievers, even from the perspective of an Asian alumni interviewer.

2)  Not all Asian kids are privileged and not all of them do years and years of test prep cramming. People here in Orange County have a skewed perception of the Asian population when the news keeps on harping about rich Chinese buying million dollar houses for cash so their kids can attend Irvine schools. But in reality, Asians are not a homogeneous monolithic group and there are plenty from working class families, refugees, etc that are unfairly getting lumped in with the "model minority" and being subjected to the same handicap on their applications due to an assumption of privilege.  People sometimes equate "Asian" to East Asian Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, but actually, there's a lot of South East Asians and Pacific islanders that do not fit that stereotype.


I'm for affirmative action on the basis of socioeconomic factors, not race.
I'm also for dismantling legacy admissions privilege, even though my own kids would benefit from that.

There is no reason why an African American or Latino kid from an upper/upper middle class family should be given a boost over a poor/working class white or Asian kid, unless we are all OK with open and blatant racial quotas. 

Interestingly, a significant proportion of the black and Latino kids I knew at Harvard were from educated upper middle class families, or were international students (parents were powerful, well connected business people or politicians in their home countries). So the idea of affirmative action as "pay back" for historical inequities of slavery/discrimination in the United States is not exactly being put to use in the fashion it was designed for. But you better believe that it allowed Harvard to check off their "diversity box" when publishing their statistics on their incoming class.

Anyway, Harvard is over-rated, especially on the West Coast and even more so in SoCal.

 






Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Kings on October 17, 2018, 09:33:47 AM
easy solution here folks: remove race from college admissions applications. 
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 09:59:09 AM
easy solution here folks: remove race from college admissions applications. 

Everyone should just be a Jane Doe or John Doe.  But of course leave the legacy tags :)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 10:27:39 AM

Formulaic is not personality.  Following a checklist is neither original nor personality.

Seriously, look at Uni high and all the resume padding clubs.  That's what they really are, resume padding clubs.

Unfortunately, that means the people coming to interview the kids at Uni or the other area schools see a bunch of high achieving grinders that look very similar. 


Seriously, how many of the kids that graduated from Uni last year had the chops to actually do the curriculum at Harvard?  Each of them is a unique and precious California flower. 
(https://www.visitcalifornia.com/sites/default/files/styles/vca_card/public/California%20Poppy%20Festival%20%7C%20Apri.jpg)


I try not to blanket the kids I interview.  But due to where I live, they're all Irvine Asian kids.  In the decade or so since I've been doing this, most of them are pretty "unremarkable", "unmemorable" and "boring".  But every year, I interview one or two Irvine Asian kids that are above and beyond.  I can usually tell within minutes of meeting them, and it must also come across loud and clear in their application materials, because they're the ones that always get in.

I suppose the argument here is "would the other dozen or so "unremarkable" kids have gotten in if they weren't asian?".  I have no idea, but I wasn't that impressed so I can't see why the application committees would be. 

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on October 17, 2018, 10:30:48 AM
Let’s cut the games. It’s what the donor base wants.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 10:44:56 AM

Formulaic is not personality.  Following a checklist is neither original nor personality.

Seriously, look at Uni high and all the resume padding clubs.  That's what they really are, resume padding clubs.

Unfortunately, that means the people coming to interview the kids at Uni or the other area schools see a bunch of high achieving grinders that look very similar. 


Seriously, how many of the kids that graduated from Uni last year had the chops to actually do the curriculum at Harvard?  Each of them is a unique and precious California flower. 
(https://www.visitcalifornia.com/sites/default/files/styles/vca_card/public/California%20Poppy%20Festival%20%7C%20Apri.jpg)


I try not to blanket the kids I interview.  But due to where I live, they're all Irvine Asian kids.  In the decade or so since I've been doing this, most of them are pretty "unremarkable", "unmemorable" and "boring".  But every year, I interview one or two Irvine Asian kids that are above and beyond.  I can usually tell within minutes of meeting them, and it must also come across loud and clear in their application materials, because they're the ones that always get in.

I suppose the argument here is "would the other dozen or so "unremarkable" kids have gotten in if they weren't asian?".  I have no idea, but I wasn't that impressed so I can't see why the application committees would be.

honest question, would these "unremarkable" Asian high achievers be "unremarkable" if they had similar stats and extracurriculars/recommendations but were of a different race? or would your committee be gushing about how much they have achieved and are a clear admit?

to be honest, no one has ever stood out to me as a clear admit in the years that I've been doing this.
I'm beyond my 20th reunion.

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on October 17, 2018, 10:54:24 AM
In general, college gets boat loads of money from application fees. (Public information)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 10:56:47 AM

Formulaic is not personality.  Following a checklist is neither original nor personality.

Seriously, look at Uni high and all the resume padding clubs.  That's what they really are, resume padding clubs.

Unfortunately, that means the people coming to interview the kids at Uni or the other area schools see a bunch of high achieving grinders that look very similar. 


Seriously, how many of the kids that graduated from Uni last year had the chops to actually do the curriculum at Harvard?  Each of them is a unique and precious California flower. 
(https://www.visitcalifornia.com/sites/default/files/styles/vca_card/public/California%20Poppy%20Festival%20%7C%20Apri.jpg)


I try not to blanket the kids I interview.  But due to where I live, they're all Irvine Asian kids.  In the decade or so since I've been doing this, most of them are pretty "unremarkable", "unmemorable" and "boring".  But every year, I interview one or two Irvine Asian kids that are above and beyond.  I can usually tell within minutes of meeting them, and it must also come across loud and clear in their application materials, because they're the ones that always get in.

I suppose the argument here is "would the other dozen or so "unremarkable" kids have gotten in if they weren't asian?".  I have no idea, but I wasn't that impressed so I can't see why the application committees would be.

honest question, would these "unremarkable" Asian high achievers be "unremarkable" if they had similar stats and extracurriculars/recommendations but were of a different race? or would your committee be gushing about how much they have achieved and are a clear admit?

to be honest, no one has ever stood out to me as a clear admit in the years that I've been doing this.
I'm beyond my 20th reunion.



Honestly?  Don't know.  But using Harvard as an example, and using Irvine as the case since this is Talk Irvine.... Harvard has a 4.59% admit rate.  How many Uni seniors are Harvard material?  25??  So 1.14 get in.  Unfortunately, if you happen to be in a graduating class with a freak of nature genius or an academic sports superstar, that one spot may go to that person and not you. Or maybe Harvard takes 2 and you get in too.

But if you (collectively you, not YOU you) are worried, don't worry, Mimi Walters is on your side.  Just got a flyer... she's a UCLA grad and a mother of 4 and is OUTRAGED for Asian American students in her district being discriminated against in university admission!!!!  OUTRAGED!!!
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 11:30:28 AM
I suggest that all parents who own a house in Irvine for the sake of their kids' schooling should immediately sell and move to Montana, or Compton, or the Central Valley. Or move abroad and educate your kids in the expat/international school system. If you want to game the system for college admissions that is.

Also, preferably have your kid do an obscure sport and get really good at it.
Male synchronized swimming anybody?
Alpine yodeling and goat herding?
Anything to stand out...
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 11:43:44 AM
I suggest that all parents who own a house in Irvine for the sake of their kids' schooling should immediately sell and move to Montana, or Compton, or the Central Valley. Or move abroad and educate your kids in the expat/international school system. If you want to game the system for college admissions that is.

Harvard calls it "sparse country":

"According to a map projected on screens in the packed courtroom, sparse country includes 20 mainly rural states like Montana, South Dakota, Alabama and West Virginia, where relatively few students, even those with excellent grades, tend to apply to elite universities like Harvard."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/us/harvard-affirmative-action-trial-asian-americans.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: fortune11 on October 17, 2018, 11:49:47 AM

Formulaic is not personality.  Following a checklist is neither original nor personality.

Seriously, look at Uni high and all the resume padding clubs.  That's what they really are, resume padding clubs.

Unfortunately, that means the people coming to interview the kids at Uni or the other area schools see a bunch of high achieving grinders that look very similar. 


Seriously, how many of the kids that graduated from Uni last year had the chops to actually do the curriculum at Harvard?  Each of them is a unique and precious California flower. 
(https://www.visitcalifornia.com/sites/default/files/styles/vca_card/public/California%20Poppy%20Festival%20%7C%20Apri.jpg)


I try not to blanket the kids I interview.  But due to where I live, they're all Irvine Asian kids.  In the decade or so since I've been doing this, most of them are pretty "unremarkable", "unmemorable" and "boring".  But every year, I interview one or two Irvine Asian kids that are above and beyond.  I can usually tell within minutes of meeting them, and it must also come across loud and clear in their application materials, because they're the ones that always get in.

I suppose the argument here is "would the other dozen or so "unremarkable" kids have gotten in if they weren't asian?".  I have no idea, but I wasn't that impressed so I can't see why the application committees would be.

honest question, would these "unremarkable" Asian high achievers be "unremarkable" if they had similar stats and extracurriculars/recommendations but were of a different race? or would your committee be gushing about how much they have achieved and are a clear admit?

to be honest, no one has ever stood out to me as a clear admit in the years that I've been doing this.
I'm beyond my 20th reunion.



Honestly?  Don't know.  But using Harvard as an example, and using Irvine as the case since this is Talk Irvine.... Harvard has a 4.59% admit rate.  How many Uni seniors are Harvard material?  25??  So 1.14 get in.  Unfortunately, if you happen to be in a graduating class with a freak of nature genius or an academic sports superstar, that one spot may go to that person and not you. Or maybe Harvard takes 2 and you get in too.

But if you (collectively you, not YOU you) are worried, don't worry, Mimi Walters is on your side.  Just got a flyer... she's a UCLA grad and a mother of 4 and is OUTRAGED for Asian American students in her district being discriminated against in university admission!!!!  OUTRAGED!!!

Ha ha  — this is too funny . Mimi Walters and her flyers ...
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Irvine Dream on October 17, 2018, 11:55:14 AM

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

It is a stupid question.  No one will know how many times someone tried to take the test.  Some could also argue that someone who cared enough to take it multiple times to get a better score is a hard worker whose efforts should be rewarded.

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Happiness on October 17, 2018, 12:03:20 PM
If Harvard and other schools want to keep Asian out, they need to use an objective measure, not some squishy meanless standard like personality.

Here's something objective that will keep Asians out: dick length.

The ruler is about as objective as you can get.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Irvine Dream on October 17, 2018, 12:15:20 PM
If Harvard and other schools want to keep Asian out, they need to use an objective measure, not some squishy meanless standard like personality.

Here's something objective that will keep Asians out: dick length.

The ruler is about as objective as you can get.
Oh Shit, no women (Asian or otherwise) can get in then.  Bones should thank her lucky stars she got in prior to this criteria
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: nosuchreality on October 17, 2018, 12:32:12 PM
I suggest that all parents who own a house in Irvine for the sake of their kids' schooling should immediately sell and move to Montana, or Compton, or the Central Valley. Or move abroad and educate your kids in the expat/international school system. If you want to game the system for college admissions that is.

Also, preferably have your kid do an obscure sport and get really good at it.
Male synchronized swimming anybody?
Alpine yodeling and goat herding?
Anything to stand out...

LOL, hey we agree. :-)

Seriously, though, I'm curious what the non-subjective criteria would be? 


As for your unremarkable Asian kid in Irvine being remarkable elsewhere, it depends. JIMHO, If they're Whitey in an Irvinesque suburb of Whiteville, no they look pretty unremarkable. If they're Whitey coming out of Podunk USA, then yes, they are.  But then again, as Asian in Podunk, they'll be even more remarkable, IMHO.

Harvard or the other Ivies, even the UC system to a lessor extent isn't about the curriculum.

Going back to your prior post
Quote
Yes, Asians in aggregate had higher grades and test scores, but also more extra-curricular activities and leadership roles than other ethnic groups.

Is this quantity over quality?  Are 3 extra-curricular activities 3X as good as 1?   Is there a weighting factor on the time commitment, type, accomplishments of the EC?  What's the marginal benefit, to Harvard of each extracurricular activity and or additional EC?   Does the perceived value of the EC change if the school has several very similar EC groups?  Size of the EC?  If the EC meets once a month and doesn't really do anything?

What's non-subjective process to sort out reality from resume fluff,  passion from application check boxing?  For the typical Ivy applicant claiming concert level musician,  President of the Student Association, President of the pre-Med club, internship original research, math tutor of the underprivileged and a volunteer at the food bank?

Much like a job interview, once you've gotten the interview, it's not really about your accomplishments and competency, those are just chits to convince the interviewers not that you're the best, but that you're the one to make the team the best.  That's what the admit class really is, the Harvard team 20XX.



Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: nosuchreality on October 17, 2018, 12:43:58 PM

Here's a rather simple question which shows greater merit?  The kid that did several years of SAT prep camps to prepare and achieve a 2400 after multiple test attempts or the kid that achieved a 2200 or even 2000 taking the SAT once? Without attending multiple prep camps?

It is a stupid question.  No one will know how many times someone tried to take the test.  Some could also argue that someone who cared enough to take it multiple times to get a better score is a hard worker whose efforts should be rewarded.



The UC system requires ALL test scores to be sent, our UC system, uses only the best score but requires all be sent..   Yale, Georgetown, U of Penn, etc. require all scores to be sent. 

https://blog.prepscholar.com/colleges-requiring-all-sat-scores-complete-list
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 12:58:46 PM

As for your unremarkable Asian kid in Irvine being remarkable elsewhere, it depends. JIMHO, If they're Whitey in an Irvinesque suburb of Whiteville, no they look pretty unremarkable. If they're Whitey coming out of Podunk USA, then yes, they are.  But then again, as Asian in Podunk, they'll be even more remarkable, IMHO.


But are they?  There are over 30,000 secondary schools in the US.  Harvard admitted less than 2,000 kids last year.  Assuming Harvard is only allowed to take one kid per school (not true), then only 6.5% of US schools even had a Harvard admit and this isn't even counting international kids and their international schools.  There are a lot of Podunk schools (and schools everywhere) with zero admits.  It's just a hard school to get into.  I'm sure there is some merit to all this but the numbers are the numbers.  22% of the 2,000 were Asian (or at least checked the Asian box), which means I'm sure there a few percentage points more that are part Asian but chose not to check the Asian box.  What's the end goal here?  For Harvard to look like Portola High? 
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 17, 2018, 01:40:48 PM
I suggest that all parents who own a house in Irvine for the sake of their kids' schooling should immediately sell and move to Montana, or Compton, or the Central Valley. Or move abroad and educate your kids in the expat/international school system. If you want to game the system for college admissions that is.

Also, preferably have your kid do an obscure sport and get really good at it.
Male synchronized swimming anybody?
Alpine yodeling and goat herding?
Anything to stand out...

I get that this comment is made in frustration, but it goes to the broader issue. Kids from Compton and the Central Valley are at a distinct disadvantage to Irvine kids, simply because they chose the wrong parents. There's a lot of entitled privilege in this comment.

Your Irvine child from a college-educated two-parent (both likely hold undergrad degrees and probably hold grad degrees), extremely safe neighborhood, a culture that values learning (in the family, the community, and the school system), whose parents spend many hours and dollars every week for two decades helping with schoolwork and other enrichment activities, is extremely privileged/fortunate/advantaged.

I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Kings on October 17, 2018, 01:42:20 PM

As for your unremarkable Asian kid in Irvine being remarkable elsewhere, it depends. JIMHO, If they're Whitey in an Irvinesque suburb of Whiteville, no they look pretty unremarkable. If they're Whitey coming out of Podunk USA, then yes, they are.  But then again, as Asian in Podunk, they'll be even more remarkable, IMHO.


But are they?  There are over 30,000 secondary schools in the US.  Harvard admitted less than 2,000 kids last year.  Assuming Harvard is only allowed to take one kid per school (not true), then only 6.5% of US schools even had a Harvard admit and this isn't even counting international kids and their international schools.  There are a lot of Podunk schools (and schools everywhere) with zero admits.  It's just a hard school to get into.  I'm sure there is some merit to all this but the numbers are the numbers.  22% of the 2,000 were Asian (or at least checked the Asian box), which means I'm sure there a few percentage points more that are part Asian but chose not to check the Asian box.  What's the end goal here?  For Harvard to look like Portola High?

the boxes clearly aren't working, as evident by harvard's very own 1/1024 native american  ;)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
I suggest that all parents who own a house in Irvine for the sake of their kids' schooling should immediately sell and move to Montana, or Compton, or the Central Valley. Or move abroad and educate your kids in the expat/international school system. If you want to game the system for college admissions that is.

Also, preferably have your kid do an obscure sport and get really good at it.
Male synchronized swimming anybody?
Alpine yodeling and goat herding?
Anything to stand out...

I get that this comment is made in frustration, but it goes to the broader issue. Kids from Compton and the Central Valley are at a distinct disadvantage to Irvine kids, simply because they chose the wrong parents. There's a lot of entitled privilege in this comment.

Your Irvine child from a college-educated two-parent (both likely hold undergrad degrees and probably hold grad degrees), extremely safe neighborhood, a culture that values learning (in the family, the community, and the school system), whose parents spend many hours and dollars every week for two decades helping with schoolwork and other enrichment activities, is extremely privileged/fortunate/advantaged.

I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

I agree with you on using socio-economic factors as a basis for affirmative action, not race.

There is some overlap between race and socio-economic factors such that using economic class as proxy would secondarily help improve racial diversity within an admitted class cohort.  But without outright racial quotas.

It speaks to a deeply ingrained stereotype in the United States that certain races=poverty and other races are rich and privileged, which is a vast oversimplification.

Fresh Prince of Bel Air family versus Appalachian coal miner family versus Hmong refugee family in the Central Valley.
OK, now let's look at African American from single parent household in inner city Chicago, versus Connecticut hedge fund scion WASP versus rich Chinese foreign national buying a 2 million dollar house in Irvine so their kids can attend public schools.  Who has privilege? Which kid deserves to have affirmative action work for them in these case? Should it be on the basis of race?



Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 02:32:01 PM
Harvard already has initiatives in place that speak to this. 1 in 5 undergrads pay $0 bc their family income is <$65k.  The major sticking point for these Ivy’s with low admit rates and small freshman classes is the legacy piece. Legacies plus athletes eat into a big piece of the admissions pie. UC schools did away with legacies but I can’t see Ivys following suit. 
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 17, 2018, 02:33:30 PM
Those are all legitimately fair questions we should be asking, or at least, folks who create college admission standards should be asking. Any resulting standards we create, will be unfair, but hopefully fairer. The unfairness is inherent in the luck of birth. No college admissions standards are going to fix this.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Irvine Dream on October 17, 2018, 02:35:49 PM
I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

So your solution is to penalize the hard working students who chose the wrong, advantaged parents eventhough they don't anything for granted and works hard.  In my experience most of the social engineering advocates are hypocrytes who will never hire or utilize services of anyone less than the best when they really need something
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 17, 2018, 02:44:12 PM
I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

So your solution is to penalize the hard working students who chose the wrong, advantaged parents eventhough they don't anything for granted and works hard.  In my experience most of the social engineering advocates are hypocrytes who will never hire or utilize services of anyone less than the best when they really need something

There are only so many Harvard frosh seats available every year. Thousands of hard-working extremely qualified applicants will be denied admission (and have to settle for another great academic institution). There is no perfectly fair way to determine who's admitted.

Share your perfect admissions program.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Irvine Dream on October 17, 2018, 02:51:46 PM


Share your perfect admissions program.

Be transparent, say X % based on standardized test scores, y% based on race, Z% based on socio-economic status.  Don't BS and say holistic evalaution
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 03:41:16 PM
Share your perfect admissions program.

A lottery.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Kings on October 17, 2018, 04:20:59 PM


Share your perfect admissions program.

Be transparent, say X % based on standardized test scores, y% based on race, Z% based on socio-economic status.  Don't BS and say holistic evalaution

see, i wouldn't mind if companies, colleges, whatever were transparent in their hiring or admittance practices.  nobody wants to hear the truth though because the truth is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. (cue hillary)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Happiness on October 17, 2018, 04:33:21 PM
The schools who want to discriminate can just stop taking public money. Then they can discriminate all they want.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: fortune11 on October 17, 2018, 07:19:43 PM
Harvard already has initiatives in place that speak to this. 1 in 5 undergrads pay $0 bc their family income is <$65k.  The major sticking point for these Ivy’s with low admit rates and small freshman classes is the legacy piece. Legacies plus athletes eat into a big piece of the admissions pie. UC schools did away with legacies but I can’t see Ivys following suit.

+1

This is the Crux of the problem.

I interviewed 9 kids for my school (will remain unnamed but suffice to say right up there) last year , recommended 3 of them , all I felt were extremely qualified but none got in .

One guy had so much on his resume (original stuff like creative arts , part of it got commercialized) that I was left scratching my head as to how did I myself ever manage to get in .

Think about it — over the decades , wealth levels have gone up, likes marrying likes has gone up, and the desire to attend these institutions has skyrocketed. But they have monopoly on supply . Bmw and Mercedes had scarcity value at one point in the 80s now they have a model for every budget

The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.  Just witness their endowments which now rival many sovereign wealth funds .
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 08:14:27 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 08:18:47 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 08:22:33 PM
Harvard already has initiatives in place that speak to this. 1 in 5 undergrads pay $0 bc their family income is <$65k.  The major sticking point for these Ivy’s with low admit rates and small freshman classes is the legacy piece. Legacies plus athletes eat into a big piece of the admissions pie. UC schools did away with legacies but I can’t see Ivys following suit.

the alumni donors are the ones who are helping make these generous financial aid packages possible.

alumni donations tend to go up right as their own children start getting to middle and high school. Coincidence?
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: misme on October 17, 2018, 08:25:14 PM
The schools who want to discriminate can just stop taking public money. Then they can discriminate all they want.

even the private schools are subsidized by government  with respect to taxes through their nonprofit status.

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 08:44:57 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.

Yale Singapore is undergraduate.  So is Duke Kunshan.  Qatar is home to satellite undergraduate campuses of Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown.

The point being, many elite schools have already capitalized on selling off their name for a price.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 08:50:04 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.

Yale Singapore is undergraduate.  So is Duke Kunshan.  Qatar is home to satellite undergraduate campuses of Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown.

The point being, many elite schools have already capitalized on selling off their name for a price.

Ahh yes. Forgot about Yale Singapore. That place also has a 5% admit rate. Is there a lawsuit there too?
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 17, 2018, 08:55:02 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.

Yale Singapore is undergraduate.  So is Duke Kunshan.  Qatar is home to satellite undergraduate campuses of Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown.

The point being, many elite schools have already capitalized on selling off their name for a price.

Ahh yes. Forgot about Yale Singapore. That place also has a 5% admit rate. Is there a lawsuit there too?

Nope.  More than 60% Asian.  ;D
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 17, 2018, 09:04:34 PM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.

Yale Singapore is undergraduate.  So is Duke Kunshan.  Qatar is home to satellite undergraduate campuses of Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown.

The point being, many elite schools have already capitalized on selling off their name for a price.

Ahh yes. Forgot about Yale Singapore. That place also has a 5% admit rate. Is there a lawsuit there too?

Nope.  More than 60% Asian.  ;D

So same as Portola High. UTOPIA!!!

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on October 17, 2018, 10:07:47 PM
Screw them you don’t need them.  :D
(If the college don’t want your kind. Move on. Don’t let negativity affect you)
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: fortune11 on October 18, 2018, 07:04:44 AM
The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.

Satellite campuses have been around for a while.  You haven't heard about Cornell-Tech?  Wharton Beijing?  NYU Abu Dhabi?

LinkedIn is littered with resumes featuring the HBS logo boasting some bogus Executive Education certificate from Harvard.

Closer to home, how about USC Orange County?  Hell, even Cal State Fullerton has an Irvine campus.

Most of the IVY satellite stuff is at the graduate level or professional certificate level. The undergrad stuff remains pretty pure.

Wharton Beijing is MBA. Cornell Tech is masters. NYU is undergraduate but that ain’t no ivy.

Yale Singapore is undergraduate.  So is Duke Kunshan.  Qatar is home to satellite undergraduate campuses of Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown.

The point being, many elite schools have already capitalized on selling off their name for a price.

Ahh yes. Forgot about Yale Singapore. That place also has a 5% admit rate. Is there a lawsuit there too?

Nope.  More than 60% Asian.  ;D

One model for satellite campuses which comes to mind is this IIT from India. Lot of my consultant colleagues went to this one. Apparently I am told they expanded campuses (doubled them or so) when demand went up over the decades .
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 18, 2018, 09:28:00 AM
I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

So your solution is to penalize the hard working students who chose the wrong, advantaged parents eventhough they don't anything for granted and works hard.  In my experience most of the social engineering advocates are hypocrytes who will never hire or utilize services of anyone less than the best when they really need something

The social engineering is happening every day, and you, I, other Irvine residents, and other affluent households are a big part of it. We should be highly skeptical and hesitant when government attempts to engineer opportunity and/or outcomes, but we can't simply ignore what's occurring.

I spend time talking about school every day and helping with homework. Nearly every day, an hour or two is spent on an extracurricular/enrichment activity. I spend hours, outside of normal practice, every week working on agility drills, basketball drills, baseball drills, etc.

I am engineering a short term and long term advantage every single day for my kids. This has a massive cumulative effect.

As you can probably tell, I think about this quite a bit. My kids have extreme advantages over other kids, including my childhood. So, I am social engineering inequalities.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on October 18, 2018, 09:30:13 AM
I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

So your solution is to penalize the hard working students who chose the wrong, advantaged parents eventhough they don't anything for granted and works hard.  In my experience most of the social engineering advocates are hypocrytes who will never hire or utilize services of anyone less than the best when they really need something

The social engineering is happening every day, and you, I, other Irvine residents, and other affluent households are a big part of it. We should be highly skeptical and hesitant when government attempts to engineer opportunity and/or outcomes, but we can't simply ignore what's occurring.

I spend time talking about school every day and helping with homework. Nearly every day, an hour or two is spent on an extracurricular/enrichment activity. I spend hours, outside of normal practice, every week working on agility drills, basketball drills, baseball drills, etc.

I am engineering a short term and long term advantage every single day for my kids. This has a massive cumulative effect.

As you can probably tell, I think about this quite a bit. My kids have extreme advantages over other kids, including my childhood. So, I am social engineering inequalities.

Or you can hire a tutor or after school can do the homework with them and help study.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 18, 2018, 10:42:25 AM
I don't support using race as a factor in college admissions, but I highly favor using socio-economic factors.

So your solution is to penalize the hard working students who chose the wrong, advantaged parents eventhough they don't anything for granted and works hard.  In my experience most of the social engineering advocates are hypocrytes who will never hire or utilize services of anyone less than the best when they really need something

The social engineering is happening every day, and you, I, other Irvine residents, and other affluent households are a big part of it. We should be highly skeptical and hesitant when government attempts to engineer opportunity and/or outcomes, but we can't simply ignore what's occurring.

I spend time talking about school every day and helping with homework. Nearly every day, an hour or two is spent on an extracurricular/enrichment activity. I spend hours, outside of normal practice, every week working on agility drills, basketball drills, baseball drills, etc.

I am engineering a short term and long term advantage every single day for my kids. This has a massive cumulative effect.

As you can probably tell, I think about this quite a bit. My kids have extreme advantages over other kids, including my childhood. So, I am social engineering inequalities.

What I’m describing are accumulative merit-based advantages, knowledge and skills, higher income/wealth households contribute to their kids on a daily basis, over two decades.

We shouldn’t disregard non-merit-based advantages kids are born with, that affect opportunities, in youth and beyond. Imagine if college admission standards not only considered race, but also height, weight, attractiveness, baldness propensity, etc. High school seniors below average height, above average weight, and below average attractiveness are at a serious statistical disadvantage in the workplace.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: momopi on October 18, 2018, 11:01:03 AM
We shouldn’t disregard non-merit-based advantages kids are born with, that affect opportunities, in youth and beyond. Imagine if college admission standards not only considered race, but also height, weight, attractiveness, baldness propensity, etc. High school seniors below average height, above average weight, and below average attractiveness are at a serious statistical disadvantage in the workplace.

Height:  Various treatments, including hormone injections are avail during growth phase.  After growth phase there are limb lengthening surgery and elevator shoes avail.  See:  Samsung Medical Center in Seoul.

Weight:  Diet, exercise, and lipo.

Attractiveness:  Cosmetic products, procedures, and surgeries avail.  See:  Oracle Clinic in Seoul.

Baldness:  Hair transplant avail at Newport Beach.

Not qualifying to be a male porn star:  male XL sized implant + viagra avail at Newport Beach.

Race:  You could cosmetically change your appearance with some attributes of another ethnicity  (see Lisa of Blackpink), but you cannot change your race.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: woodburyowner on October 18, 2018, 11:11:11 AM
Race:  You could cosmetically change your appearance with some attributes of another ethnicity  (see Lisa of Blackpink), but you cannot change your race.

Some East Indians (ie. not native) can pass as African American.

https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains-why-he-pretended-to-be-black/

Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on October 18, 2018, 11:43:14 AM
Imagine if college admission standards not only considered race, but also height, weight, attractiveness, baldness propensity, etc.

Don't they already do this?  How many 5'8" scholarship baseball players are there on a DI, Top 25 school baseball roster?
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: nosuchreality on October 18, 2018, 12:09:23 PM
Harvard already has initiatives in place that speak to this. 1 in 5 undergrads pay $0 bc their family income is <$65k.  The major sticking point for these Ivy’s with low admit rates and small freshman classes is the legacy piece. Legacies plus athletes eat into a big piece of the admissions pie. UC schools did away with legacies but I can’t see Ivys following suit.

+1

This is the Crux of the problem.

I interviewed 9 kids for my school (will remain unnamed but suffice to say right up there) last year , recommended 3 of them , all I felt were extremely qualified but none got in .

One guy had so much on his resume (original stuff like creative arts , part of it got commercialized) that I was left scratching my head as to how did I myself ever manage to get in .

Think about it — over the decades , wealth levels have gone up, likes marrying likes has gone up, and the desire to attend these institutions has skyrocketed. But they have monopoly on supply . Bmw and Mercedes had scarcity value at one point in the 80s now they have a model for every budget

The “market “ solution is for these universities to launch other , satellite campuses . But they won’t — as the current setup incentivizes prestige and snobbery over really trying to meet consumer demand.  Just witness their endowments which now rival many sovereign wealth funds .

The Market solution is what they currently are doing.

You all missed the really important one, the Dean's special interest list.

And let's be honest, the reason you want your non-1% kid going to Harvard is to get access to that group of people on the special interest list.

Access to the people through commonality that were previously on the interest list.

Take away the special interest list and the dogged limitations for only taking Harvard, Yale or other Ivy graduates into certain roles will follow.

Once that goes, so goes your desire to get into them.

And if you're not getting that Ivy education to get access to a specific connection, what are you doing?
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 18, 2018, 12:16:03 PM
Imagine if college admission standards not only considered race, but also height, weight, attractiveness, baldness propensity, etc.

Don't they already do this?  How many 5'8" scholarship baseball players are there on a DI, Top 25 school baseball roster?

College athletic scholarships are another can of worms, a topic of many very good books.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 18, 2018, 03:39:44 PM
Asian-American Affirmative-Action Lawsuit Against Harvard Has Always Been On Behalf Of Mediocre White People
If white supremacists cared about Asian-American students, they'd be fighting to hold Harvard accountable to Bakke, not destroy it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/10/asian-american-affirmative-action-lawsuit-against-harvard-has-always-been-on-behalf-of-mediocre-white-people/
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Happiness on October 18, 2018, 04:42:55 PM
Asian-American Affirmative-Action Lawsuit Against Harvard Has Always Been On Behalf Of Mediocre White People
If white supremacists cared about Asian-American students, they'd be fighting to hold Harvard accountable to Bakke, not destroy it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/10/asian-american-affirmative-action-lawsuit-against-harvard-has-always-been-on-behalf-of-mediocre-white-people/

If you've ever seen Elie Mystal on MSNBC, he is the "angry black man" right out of central casting: white people are responsible for all of society's ills.

However, I do agree with Elie in this piece that even if the SCOTUS overturns Bakke, the clever folks at Harvard and like minded schools will find other more ingenous ways of keeping Asians out. A selective school with a race blind admissions policy like Cal Tech is over 40% Asian. Harvard and its compatriots will go nuclear before they allow that to happen to them.



Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on October 18, 2018, 07:28:59 PM
Asian-American Affirmative-Action Lawsuit Against Harvard Has Always Been On Behalf Of Mediocre White People
If white supremacists cared about Asian-American students, they'd be fighting to hold Harvard accountable to Bakke, not destroy it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/10/asian-american-affirmative-action-lawsuit-against-harvard-has-always-been-on-behalf-of-mediocre-white-people/

If you've ever seen Elie Mystal on MSNBC, he is the "angry black man" right out of central casting: white people are responsible for all of society's ills.

However, I do agree with Elie in this piece that even if the SCOTUS overturns Bakke, the clever folks at Harvard and like minded schools will find other more ingenous ways of keeping Asians out. A selective school with a race blind admissions policy like Cal Tech is over 40% Asian. Harvard and its compatriots will go nuclear before they allow that to happen to them.

Yea, he's changed over the years. His rage 10+ years ago was primarily directed at law schools over-charging students and burdening them with hundreds of thousands of dollars with meager prospects to earn good incomes. Above the Law's comments sections were filled with hate and vitriol, and he'd respond in the comments. Eventually ATL removed comments altogether because the comments just became a cesspool.

His columns have increasingly addressed political issues, with a very angry edge. "News" has evolved/devolved into entertainment and shock jock takes. I think that's part of his game. The Left needs a few guys/gals like this though. The Right is FULL of these folks.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 22, 2018, 07:27:03 PM
Harvard has so many rich kids

https://nypost.com/2018/10/22/harvard-has-so-many-rich-kids-so-it-can-avoid-financial-pressure-on-the-school-testimony/
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 24, 2018, 10:19:28 PM
Fifteen percent of Harvard students come from families that made about $630,000 or more a year. Only two Ivy institutions — Columbia and Cornell Universities — have a smaller share of students from such families, at 13 percent and 10 percent, respectively. At the top of the list is Dartmouth College, with 21 percent. The chart below shows the proportion of students enrolled at each Ivy League institution who are from the top 1 percent.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Harvard-s-Racial-Diversity/244896?cid=wcontentlist_hp_latest
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on October 25, 2018, 08:49:55 PM
Is an Extroverted Applicant Better Suited for Harvard Than an Introvert?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/us/harvard-admissions-trial-asian-americans.html
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: bones on November 01, 2018, 11:53:22 AM
Hasan Minhaj's new show Patriot Act on Netflix did an episode on this.  Great watch. 
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on November 01, 2018, 12:42:39 PM
Harvard's Not-So-Secret Admissions Factor: Donors Get a Boost

“Emails raised at bias trial show donor dollars got action
Fitzsimmons says personal rating includes multiple factors

Under questioning, Fitzsimmons explained that Harvard assigns each applicant a numerical rating from 1 to 6 in 14 separate categories.”

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-10-18/harvard-s-not-so-secret-admissions-factor-donors-get-a-boost
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on November 01, 2018, 12:48:44 PM
Don’t want to read. Check out the WSJ breakdown of Harvard’s secretive admission process unveiled in court documents. (Copy and paste link into browser)


youtube.com/watch?v=DX98-1cuUFM
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: fortune11 on November 01, 2018, 01:21:05 PM
Hasan Minhaj's new show Patriot Act on Netflix did an episode on this.  Great watch.

Great comedian, love him

Thanks for pointing this out - will have to look it up
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: eyephone on November 01, 2018, 01:27:25 PM
Hasan Minhaj's new show Patriot Act on Netflix did an episode on this.  Great watch.

Great comedian, love him

Thanks for pointing this out - will have to look it up

He was at the White House Correspondence dinner 2017. (Very funny: made jokes about Trump lightly)

youtube.com/watch?v=DHLRj1LaPiQ
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: WTTCHMN on November 02, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
Percentage Of Harvard Applicants Who Received High Personal Ratings

Black > Hispanic > White > Asian

https://apps.npr.org/dailygraphics/graphics/harvard-applicants-20181101/child.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/660734399/harvard-discrimination-trial-is-ending-but-lawsuit-is-far-from-over
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Perspective on November 02, 2018, 10:15:41 AM
Percentage Of Harvard Applicants Who Received High Personal Ratings

Black > Hispanic > White > Asian

https://apps.npr.org/dailygraphics/graphics/harvard-applicants-20181101/child.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/660734399/harvard-discrimination-trial-is-ending-but-lawsuit-is-far-from-over

Imagine yourself being deposed, and trying to answer how you arrived at these arbitrary Personal Ratings.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Happiness on November 02, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
Percentage Of Harvard Applicants Who Received High Personal Ratings

Black > Hispanic > White > Asian


Could also apply to dance skills.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: Cares on November 02, 2018, 12:28:55 PM
Hasan Minhaj's new show Patriot Act on Netflix did an episode on this.  Great watch.

Just watched this last night. It brought pretty good perspective as to how ridiculous this lawsuit is.
Title: Re: Harvard records show discrimination against Asian-Americans
Post by: irvinehomeowner on November 02, 2018, 02:31:20 PM
Percentage Of Harvard Applicants Who Received High Personal Ratings

Black > Hispanic > White > Asian


Could also apply to dance skills.

Wait a minute... have you ever seen those Korean dance studio YouTube videos? And when it comes to BBoy, they are way up there in skill and synchronicity.