Talk Irvine

General => Water Cooler => Topic started by: Irvinecommuter on February 14, 2018, 03:38:27 PM

Title: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 14, 2018, 03:38:27 PM
Quote
At least 17 people were killed Wednesday in a high school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said.

The suspect, 19-year-old former student Nikolas Cruz, is in custody, the sheriff said. The sheriff said he was expelled for unspecified disciplinary reasons.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/florida-high-school-shooting/index.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 14, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
You are wrong

We need to have laser - precision focus on the brown skinned immigrants who need to be expelled like this Chemistry professor who was separated from his three kids in Kansas so we can protect Americans from "savage crime"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/10/opinion/sunday/syed-jamal-ice-deportation.html

But the terrorism-enabling NRA -- oh come on , "lets not politicize so soon after a tragedy "

I remember when Columbine was a shock to our country - and was on the news day and night for weeks and weeks.  Now it is a routine affair that barely registers a blip

we are truly under the thumb of a rabid , foaming-at-the-mouth tiny minority of gun owners who want to make everyone else suffer for their delusions and persecution complex -- what a democracy 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 14, 2018, 11:06:00 PM
You are wrong

We need to have laser - precision focus on the brown skinned immigrants who need to be expelled like this Chemistry professor who was separated from his three kids in Kansas so we can protect Americans from "savage crime"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/10/opinion/sunday/syed-jamal-ice-deportation.html

You are on quite a roll.  Nice job taking advantage of dead kids to push your agenda. 

But the terrorism-enabling NRA -- oh come on , "lets not politicize so soon after a tragedy "
Calling them terrorism enabling is simply dishonest or stupid.  I'll let you pick.

And yes, the worst time to take action is right when something happens and people are more emotional than logical.  It's also when people are short sighted. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 14, 2018, 11:08:50 PM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 04:32:34 AM
When you are a hammer , everything looks like a nail

On a roll ?  Are you serious ?

I am disgusted by what’s going on with yet another news cycle w innocent Americans  and a weapon like AR-15

and frustrated that our  country’s politicians are still in the pocketbook of NRA. 18 shootings this year just in less than two months ? Other developed  countries have less than that in two decades .

But I am glad you responded since , to borrow a page from your own prosaic language set , “by your actions you are proving my point” .

It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

but when it is just our super lax gun laws and easy access to mass murder weapons resulting in deaths of 17 innocent kids  — move on nothing to see here , life goes on .

“thoughts and prayers “ . Aren’t our knees hurting by now kneeling so much in front of God ?

If aliens who didn’t know anything else about us , came to earth and saw what was going on, they would probably deem NRA to be more powerful than God ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on February 15, 2018, 06:05:33 AM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 09:50:25 AM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 09:59:33 AM
The Democratic Party decided in the 1990s (after a couple of decades of effort) that gun control is a loser issue politically which is why they have not seriously (symbolic actions excepted) pursued gun control since then and have allowed earlier gun control legislation they did pass, like the assault rife ban, to sunset.

Its voter psychology 101: When one group of people are trying to take property away from another group, the people defending their property will fight harder than the people trying to take away someone else's property.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 10:10:11 AM
It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

Why is the race card always played in response to these shootings?

Timothy McVeigh, the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, James Fields... these guys have all been referred to as terrorists numerous times.

The shooting yesterday in Florida is (probably) not terrorism because no political motive was involved.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 15, 2018, 10:25:57 AM
I agree, you wanna change gun laws then you have to amend the constitution..not gonna happen.  All this is spin and talk. In the end nothing will change we move on to the next cycle.  Someone will trot out my most hated quote "This is not us" or "this is not who we are" when in actuality..."this is exactly us!", learn to live with it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 10:27:44 AM
It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

Why is the race card always played in response to these shootings?

Timothy McVeigh, the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, James Fields... these guys have all been referred to as terrorists numerous times.

The shooting yesterday in Florida is (probably) not terrorism because no political motive was involved.

The point is — to elevate our focus on this mass shootings plague to the Same level as we do for “terrorism” .

After the Vegas massacre , it took us barely one week to move on . There was even talk of a basic ban on bump stocks , but nothing really happened .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 10:42:48 AM
It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

Why is the race card always played in response to these shootings?

Timothy McVeigh, the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, James Fields... these guys have all been referred to as terrorists numerous times.

The shooting yesterday in Florida is (probably) not terrorism because no political motive was involved.

The point is — to elevate our focus on this mass shootings plague to the Same level as we do for “terrorism” .

After the Vegas massacre , it took us barely one week to move on . There was even talk of a basic ban on bump stocks , but nothing really happened .

I think that's the failing or our 24 hour news cycle because they have to continue coming up with new content to generate clicks / ratings.  Without new information coming out about the Las Vegas shooting, there wasn't much to report on after awhile.

Personally, I stayed interested in the story for longer than the news cycle because I wanted to know why / how it happened.  A couple of people I know were there and thankfully survived unharmed.  Mentally they are not unharmed.  They will have PTSD for years to come.

The only source of information after awhile was through blogs, and that requires sifting through some nutty conspiracy theories, but it's amazing how many facts the news media fails to report on.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 11:02:49 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 11:17:13 AM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

That decision actually states that gun control is constitutional...you just cannot ban guns outright.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/10/the_supreme_court_created_a_gun_rights_crisis_it_s_unwilling_to_solve.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 11:17:45 AM
Guns are not the problem. Mental people are the problem. You don't prohibit alcohol to cure and stop drunk driving. 10 thousand innocent or drunks die a year in the US from DUI-related accidents. That's way more than any mass shooting.

School shootings are easier to manage than drunk drivers. For schools, you can hire armed security and provide immediate tactical response. Fight fire with fire. It's too bad that the security guard/football coach in this case didn't have a firearm. At our High School, we always had a sheriff's deputy or two on campus in uniform with a Beretta. Nothing ever happened.

With drunk driving, it's difficult to detect although legislation may soon require all vehicles detect if the person behind the wheel is impaired and may disable the vehicle.

I urge you to see  this interview of the teacher at that school she gave NBC  — she  explains how well prepared they were and how many times they drilled for this and still there was nothing they can do.  let me see if I can dig it up
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 11:18:03 AM
It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

Why is the race card always played in response to these shootings?

Timothy McVeigh, the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, James Fields... these guys have all been referred to as terrorists numerous times.

The shooting yesterday in Florida is (probably) not terrorism because no political motive was involved.

Totally not terrorist:

Quote
The 19-year-old accused of being the gunman in the deadly shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida on Wednesday belonged to a white supremacist militia, the group's leader claimed Friday.

The leader of the "Republic of Florida" white supremacist militia claimed in interviews with the Anti-Defamation League and the Associated Press that accused Parkland shooter Nikolas Cruz belonged to the group and trained with other members in paramilitary drills.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
Guns are not the problem. Mental people are the problem. You don't prohibit alcohol to cure and stop drunk driving. 10 thousand innocent or drunks die a year in the US from DUI-related accidents. That's way more than any mass shooting.

School shootings are easier to manage than drunk drivers. For schools, you can hire armed security and provide immediate tactical response. Fight fire with fire. It's too bad that the security guard/football coach in this case didn't have a firearm. At our High School, we always had a sheriff's deputy or two on campus in uniform with a Beretta. Nothing ever happened.

With drunk driving, it's difficult to detect although legislation may soon require all vehicles detect if the person behind the wheel is impaired and may disable the vehicle.

So we shouldn't have laws against drunk driving? 

Armed guards like the ones they had at Columbine and Umpqua Community College?  And I am sure that those armed guards would be attacking the shooters with a bunch of kids running through right?

and also...there are no mental illness issues outside of the United States?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 15, 2018, 11:23:58 AM
Looks like 17 more pieces of grist for our political mills.

Everybody runs for their bottle and security blanket.  'If we just ban guns', 'It's mental health', 'it's racism', it's  ..

Those are easy, nobody really wants to tackle the long list of breakdowns that allow this to fester for years to get to this point.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 11:26:54 AM
Our country was founded on brilliance

Debate was encouraged

Find a problem , see a pattern , diagnose it . Fix it

How have we come from that to a situation where CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL is actually legally prohibited from investigating impact of gun violence !!   

Tiny but very well organized and vocal minority has taken this country s inquisitive spirit hostage .... to their personal insecurities and lust for high powered guns at any cost to society

 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 11:34:52 AM
In Florida , an 18-yr-old can buy an AR-15 in a private sale w/out a background check & buy 100s of magazines & 1000s of bullets w/o so much as a driver's license.

Those are the laws. For when People start screaming to enforce the laws we have ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 15, 2018, 11:36:53 AM
I’m surprised our friend didn’t say: that’s one sick puppy
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 11:37:48 AM
It is terrorism if it was a brown or black guy involved and gee we should all be sitting up and doing something about it,

Why is the race card always played in response to these shootings?

Timothy McVeigh, the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, James Fields... these guys have all been referred to as terrorists numerous times.

The shooting yesterday in Florida is (probably) not terrorism because no political motive was involved.

Totally not terrorist:

Quote
The 19-year-old accused of being the gunman in the deadly shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida on Wednesday belonged to a white supremacist militia, the group's leader claimed Friday.

The leader of the "Republic of Florida" white supremacist militia claimed in interviews with the Anti-Defamation League and the Associated Press that accused Parkland shooter Nikolas Cruz belonged to the group and trained with other members in paramilitary drills.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was

Ok, so it's terrorism because of who he associated with?  No it's not, even if they are white supremacists.  He would need to have a political motive of some kind (maybe he did, but we don't know).  Was he only targeting non-white students?  So far what has been released is that he was expelled from the school, so the early facts make it look like an act of revenge.  One thing that is unique is that he was captured alive, so there shouldn't be a problem discerning his motive once more facts come in.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 11:39:14 AM
Looks like 17 more pieces of grist for our political mills.

Everybody runs for their bottle and security blanket.  'If we just ban guns', 'It's mental health', 'it's racism', it's  ..

Those are easy, nobody really wants to tackle the long list of breakdowns that allow this to fester for years to get to this point.

We can do all those things...drugs, society, mental health, and guns.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 11:42:18 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 11:59:33 AM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

You've got to love the crickets.

Perspective - Cat got your tongue?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 12:00:14 PM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

You've got to love the crickets.

Perspective - Cat got your tongue?

You're behind.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 12:03:42 PM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

You've got to love the crickets.

Perspective - Cat got your tongue?

You're behind.

Oh yeah?  Please post the link to Perspective's response.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 12:09:32 PM
For a lot of the proposed gun legislation to be valid, the constitution needs to be amended.  If people want it to be done right, then we have to amend first.

Educate us. Why would the 2nd Amendment need to be changed? What does it mean anyway? How should it be changed?

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

You've got to love the crickets.

Perspective - Cat got your tongue?

You're behind.

Oh yeah?  Please post the link to Perspective's response.

Why does it have to be his?  Heller decision and its progeny actually affirm the right for gun control and expressly states that 2nd amendment does not protect military style assault weapons

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-otc-guns/second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-assault-weapons-en-banc-4th-circuit-idUSKBN1612PU

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 12:14:35 PM
Common sense gun reform that keeps AR 15 type weapons  away from mental health patients and allows law enforcement to keep track of guns ( don’t we keep track of car registrations )

Is NOT  the same as

Modifying second amendment or taking “ it “ from Charles Heston s  cold dead hands ...

Please get some therapy for your macho John Wayne fantasies and  spare the damage to rest of the society
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 01:00:33 PM
We don't need gun control more than we need mental control. Unfortunately, the US healthcare system is not in the business of curing and rehabilitation. It is in the business of controlling symptoms with drugs to reap in profits. This is a systemic problem.

You want to solve mass shootings, drunk driving, rapes, murders, you solve it from the molecular level by way of gene therapy/selective breeding. 

(Scientists have already uncovered the "anger" gene: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1176974/Keep-losing-temper-Blame-angry-gene.html)

Now we are getting somewhere ...

Would love to see analysis of blue voters and red voters and see who has more of the anger gene

Or Fox News viewers and MSNBC  viewers will do as well :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 15, 2018, 01:01:33 PM
Over 90% of all mass killers have one or both of these things in common:

1) They come from broken homes.

2) They were on, or currently on mood altering pharmaceuticals.

Columbine was the exception, but the rule is clear.

As for the broken home piece, both the killer and his younger brother were adopted together - which means they were either in Foster care, or from a relative who gave them up. At minimum, the killer was at least 2 years old when adopted since news reports say his younger brother was 17. Their adoptive mother was 51 at the time she took care of these kids - a remarkable age to be taking in one infant, and a 2 year old if the reported timeline checks out. In the second case, nothing is fully verified, but some are quoted about the killer being "on medication". I'm certain this will be confirmed.

This killer isn't a product of "too many guns" but rather the natural outcome of a society that sloughs off any commitment to family, disparages personal responsibility, and promotes the hyper medication of children as an easy way to control them. Before everyone clutches their pearls about how horrible this may sound, do the research yourself. Facts can be a terrible thing sometimes.

So, do we ban divorce and meds, just as everyone wants to now ban "scary looking guns" (see below) No, because you cannot reshape society overnight, just as you cannot ban lawfully obtained weapons from being misused. There can be tweaks to the law = example: If you're on any mood altering medicine, you must hand over HOUSEHOLD weapons to law enforcement for safe keeping. "but.. but... we need a gun for safety..." OK, let us hold your guns, and give you a Taser in the mean time. Want a "bump stock"? Sure, why not, as long as they can pnly be rented only at shooting range. How about "no-bail, no parole, one-and-done" for anyone using a gun during a crime?

These are the kind of common sense gun laws I think most people would support - caretaking, not confiscation, and meaningful incarceration for real criminals.

As to the argument that "no one should have access to assault rifles" an article for you to review:

 https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/ (https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/)


Yes, 99.9% of all mass killers have one thing in common: the use of a gun during their spree (although some now are starting to use trucks now...) If after reading what an "assault rifle" if you still think banning a weapon group because they look frightening to you will solve this problem, perhaps living in a "gun free zone" like Chicago or Washington DC might convince you otherwise.

My .02c

SGIP

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
Chicago is the big boogeyman gun advocates love to use but people forget that Indiana with it’s super lax gun laws , is right next door . Plenty of supply available there .

But yes , common sense gun reforms are what everyone can agree to — now who will tell the NRA ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:21:40 PM
Over 90% of all mass killers have one or both of these things in common:

1) They come from broken homes.

2) They were on, or currently on mood altering pharmaceuticals.

Columbine was the exception, but the rule is clear.

As for the broken home piece, both the killer and his younger brother were adopted together - which means they were either in Foster care, or from a relative who gave them up. At minimum, the killer was at least 2 years old when adopted since news reports say his younger brother was 17. Their adoptive mother was 51 at the time she took care of these kids - a remarkable age to be taking in one infant, and a 2 year old if the reported timeline checks out. In the second case, nothing is fully verified, but some are quoted about the killer being "on medication". I'm certain this will be confirmed.

This killer isn't a product of "too many guns" but rather the natural outcome of a society that sloughs off any commitment to family, disparages personal responsibility, and promotes the hyper medication of children as an easy way to control them. Before everyone clutches their pearls about how horrible this may sound, do the research yourself. Facts can be a terrible thing sometimes.

So, do we ban divorce and meds, just as everyone wants to now ban "scary looking guns" (see below) No, because you cannot reshape society overnight, just as you cannot ban lawfully obtained weapons from being misused. There can be tweaks to the law = example: If you're on any mood altering medicine, you must hand over HOUSEHOLD weapons to law enforcement for safe keeping. "but.. but... we need a gun for safety..." OK, let us hold your guns, and give you a Taser in the mean time. Want a "bump stock"? Sure, why not, as long as they can pnly be rented only at shooting range. How about "no-bail, no parole, one-and-done" for anyone using a gun during a crime?

These are the kind of common sense gun laws I think most people would support - caretaking, not confiscation, and meaningful incarceration for real criminals.

As to the argument that "no one should have access to assault rifles" an article for you to review:

 https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/ (https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/)


Yes, 99.9% of all mass killers have one thing in common: the use of a gun during their spree (although some now are starting to use trucks now...) If after reading what an "assault rifle" if you still think banning a weapon group because they look frightening to you will solve this problem, perhaps living in a "gun free zone" like Chicago or Washington DC might convince you otherwise.

My .02c

SGIP

And yet mass shooting don't happen elsewhere...I mean is the US the only country with those problems?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:24:29 PM
Chicago is the big boogeyman gun advocates love to use but people forget that Indiana with it’s super lax gun laws , is right next door . Plenty of supply available there .

But yes , common sense gun reforms are what everyone can agree to — now who will tell the NRA ?

I mean 80-90% are just numbers

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/oct/03/chris-abele/do-90-americans-support-background-checks-all-gun-/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 15, 2018, 01:26:37 PM
Irvine Commuter - perhaps those at the Bataclan may disagree with you. No matter the weapon of choice - gun, truck, bomb, knife, poison, there are plenty of mass killings that are not gun related.  Everyone loves the stat that Australia banned guns and killings were reduced... a good thing... but they fail to mention that the crime rate soared thereafter - a bad, and ongoing problem. Oh... and criminals still have access to guns.

It's not the NRA that needs convincing on this. It's the hard left, those soft of head who believe you can legislate a solution. Everyone would support something in the middle, but when those on the other side wish to focus only on bans, you end up where we are at present.

The inherent problem in the "gun control" debate isn't "guns" its "control" Do we want a Government in control of this issue? To some degree, but not to the level that everyone screams about right after a mass killing like this.

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 15, 2018, 01:27:35 PM
A group is claiming he was a member.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:30:28 PM
It's not the NRA that needs convincing. It's the hard left, those soft of head who believe you can legislate a solution. Everyone would support something in the middle, but when those on the other side wish to focus only on bans, you end up where we are at present.

The inherent problem in the "gun control" debate isn't "guns" its "control" Do we want a Government in control of this issue? To some degree, but not to the level that everyone screams about right after a mass killing like this.

My .02c

Why not?  Don't the government control a lot of other things?  I mean even speech is subject to "control" and restrictions by the government.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Ready2Downsize on February 15, 2018, 01:30:46 PM
What do you mean the U.S. is the only country?

What about the shooting July 2016 in Munich? 9 dead, 27 injured.

Or Serbia in July 2016? 5 dead, 22 injured.

What about the Norway massacre where the shooter took a ferry to a summer camp?  77 dead?

Britain's had a few. Dunblane comes to mind. 16 kids (all but one innocent 5 year olds) and a teacher.

What about the suicide bombers?

Those are just the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 01:35:55 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:36:15 PM
Irvine Commuter - perhaps those at the Bataclan may disagree with you. No matter the weapon of choice - gun, truck, bomb, knife, poison, there are plenty of mass killings that are not gun related.  Everyone loves the stat that Australia banned guns and killings were reduced... a good thing... but they fail to mention that the crime rate soared thereafter - a bad, and ongoing problem. Oh... and criminals still have access to guns.


My .02c

Bombs are illegal.  Knives are harmful but I much rather a crazy person have knife than a gun.  Not to mention the the cost/benefit analysis of a knife versus a military assault type weapon.     

And the Australia thing is categorically false.  There is very little evidence the gun ownership means lower crime.  There is a lot of evidence that gun control work to reduce gun violence both domestically and overseas.

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

https://www.sciencealert.com/studies-show-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-to-save-lives

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:42:41 PM
What do you mean the U.S. is the only country?

What about the shooting July 2016 in Munich? 9 dead, 27 injured.

Or Serbia in July 2016? 5 dead, 22 injured.

What about the Norway massacre where the shooter took a ferry to a summer camp?  77 dead?

Britain's had a few. Dunblane comes to mind. 16 kids (all but one innocent 5 year olds) and a teacher.

What about the suicide bombers?

Those are just the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

Okay...

Dunblane was 1996...after which UK imposed a gun ban.   

http://theconversation.com/dunblane-massacre-20-years-on-how-britain-rewrote-its-gun-laws-and-the-challenge-it-faces-now-55896

Norway happened in 2011 and they imposed strict gun bans.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-16/what-can-us-learn-norways-gun-laws

Serbia?  Really Serbia? 

http://www.dw.com/en/serbia-the-land-of-guns/a-36946878

What about suicide bombers?  Somehow because suicide bombers exist, we should not try to deal with gun violence?  That's like saying well we don't need to worry about cancer because you will probably die of a heart attack.

We have had 18 school shooting already this year...18.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-brings-yearly-tally-to-18-in-2018.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 01:43:02 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:43:29 PM
And yet mass shooting don't happen elsewhere...I mean is the US the only country with those problems?

What?!!??!?!  Are you kidding me?

Uhhh.... hello... Paris, November 2015... 130 people dead...


You don't need guns to inflict harm. The Boston Bombing was a prime example of a quick and easy to inflict harm instantaneously. Shooting requires a lot of precision, timing, and ensuring that your guns don't jam and somebody doesn't tackle you. Bombs are more effective (Boston Massacre) because you can set it and forget it. The Tsarnaev brothers had an arsenal of guns but I'm sure they knew that wasn't the most effective way to bring chaos.

264 people were injured and 16 lost their limbs and 3 died.

So we shouldn't do anything about gun violence because there are other ways that people can harm each other?   Then why have any laws?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:43:57 PM
Bombs are illegal.

So is drunk driving. Anyone can google how to build a bomb. how do you think the Tsarnaev brothers did it?

Then why have any laws?  We have laws against murder and rape and that still happens.  Heck...free for all.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 01:56:43 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 01:59:52 PM
So we shouldn't do anything about gun violence because there are other ways that people can harm each other?   Then why have any laws?

Then why have any laws?  We have laws against murder and rape and that still happens.  Heck...free for all.

Like SGIP says, it won't solve any problems. There are already 300+ million guns in the US. One available for every man, woman, and child. Plenty of unregistered guns on the street to buy. If a crook wants one, he'll get one. Money is cheap to get now.

To get quick and cheap money fast, you:

1. break into houses, steal money, jewelry, and valuables
2. sell it at pawn shops and get cash
3. take cash and buy guns


Laws are needed for the D.A. to file charges under. Without laws, there is no statute to detain a suspect or charge him with anything under the 4th amendment. A police officer needs a book of crimes(law) in order to reasonably detain a person. A police officer cannot sentence nor execute unless his life is in immediate danger. That is up to the judicial system. When a criminal goes before a judge, the lawyer will argue whether or not his action "violated" and "matched" that specific penal code and if so is convicted.  (For example, using your car to crash into someone purposefully is murder, but if you suffered a stroke paralyzing your legs while driving and crashed into someone, it isn't murder).

Again...gun controls have worked in this country and elsewhere.  Why would we not try it?  Anything stopping criminals from doing any of those things now?  Are most of the people who conduct mass shooting "a crook"? 

80-90% people agree that certain gun control measures should be implemented.  You can do other things that require gun owners to carry insurance...or don't shield gun makers from liability.   

And again...why bother having any laws if there will be criminals to break them anyways?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 02:04:06 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 02:06:53 PM
And again...why bother having any laws if there will be criminals to break them anyways?

Because this is Amurica! Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. It took me two decades to realize how it all works. Amurica lets you flourish and do anything and everything you want to do....be Pablo Escobar and sell drugs, don't pay taxes to IRS, rob banks, etc. up until you've appeared on the Feds radar, will they come knocking. It is a game. If you beat the game, (take all your money and run away and hide in a 3rd world country), you win.

Oh...okay...not much I can come up to counter that.   So I will just post this:

(http://www.fbcovers101.com/fbcovers/Quotes__Sayings/2013/9/25/scarface_say_hello_to_my_little_friend_poqan_facebook_cover.jpg)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 02:10:52 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 02:12:54 PM

This is not like China where Beijing actively monitors and puts up firewalls against their own citizens. Speak of any political injustice and inciting subversion and Beijing will throw you in the SHU for 24 hours a day in darkness without due process. That is FAR more scarier!

However, this is Amurica. Do the crime first as you please, then pay the fine later.  ;D

Nah...plenty of crime in China.  You just gotta to know the right people and not embarrass the CCP.  Other than that...do whatever the heck you want.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 02:14:23 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 15, 2018, 02:22:26 PM
In China you will go to jail for posting unfavorable comments. (No first amendment)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 15, 2018, 03:42:51 PM
Irvine Commuter - perhaps those at the Bataclan may disagree with you. No matter the weapon of choice - gun, truck, bomb, knife, poison, there are plenty of mass killings that are not gun related.  Everyone loves the stat that Australia banned guns and killings were reduced... a good thing... but they fail to mention that the crime rate soared thereafter - a bad, and ongoing problem. Oh... and criminals still have access to guns.

Australia did not ban firearm ownership.  They imposed stricter licensing & permit system and restrictions on semi-auto firearms.  The mandatory buyback program (mostly semi auto firearms) after the port author massacre destroyed about 1 million firearms, and in the 2 decades since, Australian gun stores have imported and sold about one million firearms (mostly manual action long guns).  In effect the buyback program was a huge boon for Australian gun stores.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150


IMO the biggest difference in "end result" between AU and US gun laws is not on the restrictions placed on semi auto center fire rifles.  It's AU's stricter requirements to purchase and own handguns.  The media loves to cover mass shootings by AR15's, but in terms of total gun related fatalities, rifles account for only a very small fraction compared to handguns in the US.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunday-review/the-assault-weapon-myth.html


So if anyone here oppose sale of AR-15's but support the right to own handguns, it's actually an illogical position.  If the goal is to reduce  total number of gun related deaths while retaining ownership rights of some sort, imposing mandatory trade-in program/stricter licensing for handguns and giving out rifles and shotguns in exchange may actually produce the desired outcome better.  i.e. trade in your glock for a Beretta A300.

As for the mental health issue, part of the problem is that our culture is cliquish and dog eat dog.  We don't provide a healthy, supportive environment for people who are emotionally and mentally stressed.  When enough people are made into outcasts, at some point one of them will flip out and massacre their target group by firearm, vehicle, explosive, fire, blade, whatever.  They don't feel like there's any chance of their grievances being addressed and nobody will lend a supportive shoulder and ear.  Instead they go on the dark corners of the internet where others with similar mindsets egg them on to commit mass murder.  I've personally read commentaries calling massacres "pest control".  How many years of hate does it take to reach that point?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 03:47:12 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 15, 2018, 03:59:25 PM
We're Averaging One School Shooting Every 60 Hours In 2018
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-averaging-one-school-shooting-234023624.html


By the way, somebody on yahoo mentioned, assault rifles have been in existence way back since the 1960s. So why weren't there any school shootings back then?

Perhaps because society has given birth to deranged and crazy lunatic children.

Won’t you talk about the association he belongs to.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 04:01:09 PM
We're Averaging One School Shooting Every 60 Hours In 2018
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-averaging-one-school-shooting-234023624.html


By the way, somebody on yahoo mentioned, assault rifles have been in existence way back since the 1960s. So why weren't there any school shootings back then?

Perhaps because society has given birth to deranged and crazy lunatic children.

If by "assault rifle" you mean the technical definition which is a selective fire intermediate cartridge rifle, these have been around since WWII (i.e. German Stgw rifles).

If by "assault rifle" you mean the clueless liberal media definition which is the scary looking rifle du jour, you are correct these have generally been available since the mid 1960s.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 04:16:06 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 04:26:05 PM
We're Averaging One School Shooting Every 60 Hours In 2018
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-averaging-one-school-shooting-234023624.html


By the way, somebody on yahoo mentioned, assault rifles have been in existence way back since the 1960s. So why weren't there any school shootings back then?

Perhaps because society has given birth to deranged and crazy lunatic children.

If by "assault rifle" you mean the technical definition which is a selective fire intermediate cartridge rifle, these have been around since WWII (i.e. German Stgw rifles).

If by "assault rifle" you mean the clueless liberal media definition which is the scary looking rifle du jour, you are correct these have generally been available since the mid 1960s.

Quote
Efforts to create restrictions on "assault weapons" at the federal government level intensified in 1989 after 34 children and a teacher were shot and five children killed in Stockton, Calif. with a semi-automatic AK-47 rifle. The Luby's shooting in October 1991, which left 23 people dead and 27 wounded, was another factor. The July 1993 101 California Street shooting also contributed to passage of the ban. The shooter killed eight people and wounded six. Two of the three firearms he used were TEC-9 semi-automatic handguns with Hellfire triggers. The ban tried to address public concerns about mass shootings by restricting firearms that met the criteria for what it defined as a "semiautomatic assault weapon", as well as magazines that met the criteria for what it defined as a "large capacity ammunition feeding device"

Quote
he assault weapons ban expired on September 13, 2004. Legislation to renew or replace the ban was proposed numerous times unsuccessfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Provisions_of_the_1994_ban
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 04:30:16 PM
Irvine Commuter - perhaps those at the Bataclan may disagree with you. No matter the weapon of choice - gun, truck, bomb, knife, poison, there are plenty of mass killings that are not gun related.  Everyone loves the stat that Australia banned guns and killings were reduced... a good thing... but they fail to mention that the crime rate soared thereafter - a bad, and ongoing problem. Oh... and criminals still have access to guns.

Australia did not ban firearm ownership.  They imposed stricter licensing & permit system and restrictions on semi-auto firearms.  The mandatory buyback program (mostly semi auto firearms) after the port author massacre destroyed about 1 million firearms, and in the 2 decades since, Australian gun stores have imported and sold about one million firearms (mostly manual action long guns).  In effect the buyback program was a huge boon for Australian gun stores.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150


IMO the biggest difference in "end result" between AU and US gun laws is not on the restrictions placed on semi auto center fire rifles.  It's AU's stricter requirements to purchase and own handguns.  The media loves to cover mass shootings by AR15's, but in terms of total gun related fatalities, rifles account for only a very small fraction compared to handguns in the US.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunday-review/the-assault-weapon-myth.html


So if anyone here oppose sale of AR-15's but support the right to own handguns, it's actually an illogical position.  If the goal is to reduce  total number of gun related deaths while retaining ownership rights of some sort, imposing mandatory trade-in program/stricter licensing for handguns and giving out rifles and shotguns in exchange may actually produce the desired outcome better.  i.e. trade in your glock for a Beretta A300.

As for the mental health issue, part of the problem is that our culture is cliquish and dog eat dog.  We don't provide a healthy, supportive environment for people who are emotionally and mentally stressed.  When enough people are made into outcasts, at some point one of them will flip out and massacre their target group by firearm, vehicle, explosive, fire, blade, whatever.  They don't feel like there's any chance of their grievances being addressed and nobody will lend a supportive shoulder and ear.  Instead they go on the dark corners of the internet where others with similar mindsets egg them on to commit mass murder.  I've personally read commentaries calling massacres "pest control".  How many years of hate does it take to reach that point?

Can't we do all those things?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 04:35:53 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 15, 2018, 04:59:23 PM
I'm tired of talking about this. Let's go back to the other side to talk about Irvine.  ;D

Parkland, Florida is pretty close to Irvine

Parkland:

Median income:  $128,292
Per Capital Income:  $54,337
Percent Poverty:  3.5%
HS grad:  96%
Bachelor Degree:  58%

Irvine:

Median Income:  $93,823
Per Capita:  $45,120
Poverty:  1.2%
HS grad: 96.6
Bachelor Deg:  68%

Marjorj Stoneman Douglas High:  No. 623

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/florida/districts/broward-county-public-schools/marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-4749 

Northwood:  304
University High:  340
Woodbridge:  657
Irvine High:  1447
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 05:14:50 PM
Orange County History Moment:

Did you know the liberal media's current favorite gun the AR-15 was invented right here in Orange County? The Armalite company of Costa Mesa created the AR-15 in the early 1950s. When I was a kid in the 1980s I visited the Armalite office on 16th Street in Costa Mesa and saw some amazing stuff. Too bad Costa Mesa is now more known for pregnant Mainland Chinese ladies than engineering innovation.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 15, 2018, 05:24:22 PM
We're Averaging One School Shooting Every 60 Hours In 2018
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-averaging-one-school-shooting-234023624.html


By the way, somebody on yahoo mentioned, assault rifles have been in existence way back since the 1960s. So why weren't there any school shootings back then?

Perhaps because society has given birth to deranged and crazy lunatic children.


There Were Three School Shootings This Year, Not 18. That’s Still Too Many.

Any number of school shootings is too many. And, at this time when we are so rightly hurting at yesterday’s brutality in Parkland, Fla., a sensationalist report has gone viral, claiming that there have been 18 such acts this year alone. The factoid has been promoted by countless major media and political figures, as well as by celebrities. Indeed, such a number would mean an unprecedented crisis. But it’s not true.

The original source of the figure is Mike Bloomberg’s gun-control advocacy organization, Everytown for Gun Safety. The organization arrives at the figure by defining a “school shooting” as any time a gun is fired at or near a school, college, or university, regardless of whether students are present or anyone is injured. In fact, if one counts only events where a shooter enters a school and shoots someone, there have been three school shootings, including yesterday’s. (The other spree shooting was in Kentucky and a murder happened at a school in Texas.) This information is viewable on Everytown’s site itself, as a click on any location reveals the details and news sources of the incident in question.

Everytown’s list includes incidents such as an adult committing suicide in the parking lot of a school that had long been closed down and gun violence in the neighborhood where California State University–San Bernardino is located (it is one of the most crime-ridden cities in the country, with California’s second-highest murder rate.) While such acts are obviously cause for concern in their own right, all that conflating these incidents with “school shootings” does is to create a climate of terror.

Suicide and violent crime are very real social problems, but they are not the same thing as school shootings.


Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/456479/18-school-shootings-2018-viral-stat-wrong
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 05:58:26 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 06:16:13 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:05:07 PM
Orange County History Moment:

Did you know the liberal media's current favorite gun the AR-15 was invented right here in Orange County? The Armalite company of Costa Mesa created the AR-15 in the early 1950s. When I was a kid in the 1980s I visited the Armalite office on 16th Street in Costa Mesa and saw some amazing stuff. Too bad Costa Mesa is now more known for pregnant Mainland Chinese ladies than engineering innovation.

Huh ? I thought it was known for uneducated white dudes and their monster trucks .  What dayah know ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:07:00 PM
Yes , lets compare ourselves to China now ...  And not the rest of the developed world -- yay, atleast we are better than "Gina"

China has smog on days such that you cant see 10 feet ahead of you -- you want to enjoy that in CA ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Loco_local on February 15, 2018, 07:16:05 PM
Quote
The EASIEST way and CHEAPEST way is to hire armed security at every school. Come on. Schools get something like $8,000 for each student per year per enrollment. You're telling me schools can't afford to hire a $60,000 armed security personnel?

I read somewhere that school did have an armed security guard, but with a school that size, one person can't be very effective.  Better to just make school uniforms that have bullet proof vests.

Does anyone remember the story about the UCI professor and Uni? If he had actually been serious, I don't think one for even two armed security would have made much difference in a big open campus.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:21:15 PM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 07:26:49 PM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking China in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:29:38 PM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

You know , we can live with a once in a 100-year Japanese samurai master carving up people like sushi

at-least we won't have these monthly (or sometimes weekly) headlines -- gets sickening just to watch after a while
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 15, 2018, 07:31:50 PM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

You know , we can live with a once in a 100-year Japanese samurai master carving up people like sushi

at-least we won't have these monthly (or sometimes weekly) headlines -- gets sickening just to watch after a while
You can live with horrific war crimes but criminal shootings sickens you?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:41:47 PM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

You know , we can live with a once in a 100-year Japanese samurai master carving up people like sushi

at-least we won't have these monthly (or sometimes weekly) headlines -- gets sickening just to watch after a while
You can live with horrific war crimes but criminal shootings sickens you?

Sigh ... why do you make me work so hard ... thought it was obvious to everyone

We are NOT talking about war crimes

If once in a 100 years --  we get a samurai style mass killer that is so skilled -- that he or she can achieve the same murderous "effect " as an unskilled madman with an AR-15  ---  that risk is much much less than any wacko out there who can lay his hands on automatic weapons any day he or she wants

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 07:57:15 PM
Ok , lets come back to what hits home to every one on this board -- all the buyers , sellers , renters , real estate agents  , mortgage brokers , financial advisors ..

For all the chest thumping about gun rights

which neighborhood is likely to have better desirability   --

one full of gun nuts with self defense arsenals in their garages or

one where you have educated "blue leaning" professionals wiling to rely on local police force that is well funded with their taxes , but don't mind keeping an occasional handgun if so inclined . 

No need to answer ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 15, 2018, 08:04:35 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 08:19:51 PM
Ok , lets come back to what hits home to every one on this board -- all the buyers , sellers , renters , real estate agents  , mortgage brokers , financial advisors ..

For all the chest thumping about gun rights

which neighborhood is likely to have better desirability   --

one full of gun nuts with self defense arsenals in their garages or

one where you have educated "blue leaning" professionals wiling to rely on local police force that is well funded with their taxes , but don't mind keeping an occasional handgun if so inclined . 

No need to answer ...

The best neighborhood with the highest desirability is a neighborhood that is "majority" empty stucco boxes that are FCB buyers that don't even live here. The homes will have no noise, no wear and tear in the homes, streets, neighborhood, parks, and schools, means it always stays looking brand new which means no theft and no crime (because nothing to steal) and is GOOD for appreciation  ;D

Yes , God bless those silent buyers boosting our home values , thy bounty is limitless

Now please don't any AR-15 worshippers scare them away from Irvine  ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 08:31:27 PM
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374037-florida-high-school-students-criticize-gop-reaction-to-shooting

Students from high school targeted in mass shooting criticize GOP reaction

Several students at the Florida high school where a gunman killed nearly 20 people Wednesday took to social media in the aftermath of the shooting to criticize Republican leaders and media personalities for their response to the United States' latest mass shooting

Most of the student's anger was directed at President Trump. On Thursday morning, Trump suggested that the suspected shooter was "mentally disturbed" and should've been reported to police more, but made no mention of potential gun control measures.

Some students at the school criticized Trump on social media, with one telling Trump to be quiet "unless you are going to do something about gun control."

Nikolas Cruz, 19, was charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder Thursday morning after authorities said he opened fire in Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, killing at least 17 people and injuring more than a dozen others.

The South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported that Cruz legally purchased the AR-15 semi-automatic rifle he allegedly used in the shooting. Cruz had been kicked out of the school and flagged as a threat.

The students also responded to conservative media personality and Fox News contributor Tomi Lahren, who pushed back on calls for gun control after the shooting by writing that it "isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic."

"I was hiding a closet for 2 hours," one student responded on Twitter. "It was about guns."

A number of students and teachers from the school did interviews late Wednesday in which they called on Congress to act to curb gun violence.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 08:48:36 PM
Steve Kerr .. WOW .. couldn't have said it any better

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 15, 2018, 09:01:25 PM
Pro-Gun Russian Bots Flood Twitter After Parkland Shooting

https://www.wired.com/story/pro-gun-russian-bots-flood-twitter-after-parkland-shooting/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 16, 2018, 06:57:20 AM
Let's not beat around the bush. Bottom line is Americans need guns just as much as they need their weed, soda, and insulin. Regulation will not prevent a lunatic from carrying out acts of terrorism. This is domestic terrorism at its finest. Born and bred from the good ole' US of A.

The EASIEST way and CHEAPEST way is to hire armed security at every school. Come on. Schools get something like $8,000 for each student per year per enrollment. You're telling me schools can't afford to hire a $60,000 armed security personnel?

There was an armed security officer at the HS. 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/armed-guard-florida-school-encountered-rampaging-gunman-article-1.3822777
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 16, 2018, 07:05:28 AM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking China in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

Are you serious?  Seriously...what the heck kinda of comparison is that?   You think those guys were just two random people running around in samurai swords in a normal societal background? 

250,000 people were murdered and 20,000 rapes occurred during the Nanking Massacre in a systematic campaign of terror and destruction waged by the Japanese army over a period of a month.  It is considered one of the most tragic examples of war crimes in human history.  Is that the context you want to put on this discussion? 

Seriously...that is insulting to both the victims of the Nanking Massacre and the Parkland shooting
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 16, 2018, 07:13:24 AM
Quote
The EASIEST way and CHEAPEST way is to hire armed security at every school. Come on. Schools get something like $8,000 for each student per year per enrollment. You're telling me schools can't afford to hire a $60,000 armed security personnel?

I read somewhere that school did have an armed security guard, but with a school that size, one person can't be very effective.  Better to just make school uniforms that have bullet proof vests.

Does anyone remember the story about the UCI professor and Uni? If he had actually been serious, I don't think one for even two armed security would have made much difference in a big open campus.

The whole shooting took 6 minutes and there was an armed deputy there.  Of course, we have not even talked about the sniper scenario that happened in Las Vegas.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/aftermath-shooting-community-mourns-wonders-044040593.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 07:29:38 AM
Here you go ladies and gentlemen!  Sort the list by country. You will see obviously that USA has the highest frequency but China (a country that bans guns) has plenty of school massacres as well. Same thing with Germany and a few in Canada.

Once again, guns are not necessary for school massacres.

Perhaps, what we can do is raise the minimum age to 26 to own and purchase firearms. However, that still wouldn't stop an old ass bloke like Stephen Paddock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

I am not a combat veteran ... But even I can tell you this killer in Florida ---  had he been brandishing a knife or even a samurai sword --- could have been stopped at a death count  way, way below 17 ...

Don't underestimate the samurai sword. Two Japanese soldiers killed over 100 Chinese civilians with a samuari sword in a contest in Nanking China in 1937:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg

Are you serious?  Seriously...what the heck kinda of comparison is that?   You think those guys were just two random people running around in samurai swords in a normal societal background? 

250,000 people were murdered and 20,000 rapes occurred during the Nanking Massacre in a systematic campaign of terror and destruction waged by the Japanese army over a period of a month.  It is considered one of the most tragic examples of war crimes in human history.  Is that the context you want to put on this discussion? 

Seriously...that is insulting to both the victims of the Nanking Massacre and the Parkland shooting

Good reply w some historical context.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 07:52:27 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

 



Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 16, 2018, 08:01:28 AM
Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 16, 2018, 08:06:55 AM
Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.

I think it will just get worse. With CSGo, PUBG and Overwatch... our next generation is all about guns.

Time to start building walls (Trump?) around schools and putting metal detectors at the entrances.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 08:14:53 AM
Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.

I think it will just get worse. With CSGo, PUBG and Overwatch... our next generation is all about guns.

Time to start building walls (Trump?) around schools and putting metal detectors at the entrances.

Next gen all about guns ? not sure if it was said in jest , or if you are serious

there will always be disillusioned youth - the types to spend day and night squabbling on 4chan -- but the gap between Gen X/Y/Z (to various degrees) and boomers is getting to be as big as the gap between boomers in their youth or middle age and their parents .

don't also forget - this crowd is a lot more diverse (ethnicity wise ) than the boomers were
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 16, 2018, 08:59:47 AM
Can't we do all those things?

For those living in State of CA you don't need to do anything, as the political trend here leans toward gun control.  However this will not stop angry people from setting off pressure cooker bombs or running crowds over with a truck.  As 3D milling (CNC) becomes more affordable many people will simply click and print firearm parts at home and build their own.

As I mentioned in my previous post, our culture sucks in dealing with outcasts and mentally or emotionally stressed people.  When there is no shoulder to lean on or ear to listen, people retreat to their safe spaces and that space isn't always a good place (dark corners of the internet).  To compare, in 2014, a troubled young man in Taiwan stabbed 28 people on the train, resulting in 4 fatalities and 10 critical injuries.  Fortunately emergency services and hospitals were nearby the train station, otherwise it would have resulted in 14 fatalities.

This young man was a student of Tunghai University and had been giving off warning signs for quite some time.  People avoided him because he likes to talk about leading groups of people to abandoned classrooms or train stations and killing them all.  His safe space was the dark corner of the internet for snuff fiction.  Long before he went to stab 28 people, multiple calls were made to the school administration warning them, but nobody bothered to make an effort.  After the attack the university staff and students were shocked before coming to realization on the cost of their inaction.

Instead of demonizing the troubled young man, the University released a statement calling him a member of their family, and that they loved him, but did not love him enough.  The school apologized to the public for their failings.  The student body held prayers for him and marched with banners that called on their fellow students to take "one more step, to look once again, and to speak one more word" -- do not ignore your fellow students who are troubled.  They felt shameful that they allowed one of their peers to cause the damage to society.

http://www.thu.edu.tw/web/announcement/announcement_detail.php?cid=7&id=3467



How many of us would make an effort to go sit with a loner or outcast at lunch table in school?  Do we point our fingers at Everyone else but ourselves?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 09:13:03 AM
Sigh ... why do you make me work so hard ... thought it was obvious to everyone

We are NOT talking about war crimes

Ah, so you admit this wasn't an act of terrorism.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 09:17:31 AM
again this is not rocket science ..

a guy with a knife can be stopped before he kills 15 people

Don't point to exceptions

There is something called " base rate effects " or " base rate neglect " .  look it up ... if I get time later today I will do one of my clifnotes versions on it

it is how insurance companies price risk and many of your corporations that you work for also price risk / reward

remove emotions , romantic fantasies of manhood , sob stories , land of the free imagery and try to tackle a problem

make high powered guns difficult to obtain for mentally challenged people - it is not that hard !!

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 16, 2018, 09:22:54 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

Why blame the GOP for lack of gun control? There were several times since the 90s when the Dems had the votes and the WH where they could have acted on this. The Dems made a decision back in the 90s to try to expand its appeal outside of large cities by downplaying its opposition to guns. This is one of the reasons Bill Clinton was so popular with such a broad segment of American society. If you are a politician or political party, you can't ignore the fact that half of US households contain guns and there are far more guns than people in the US and since these people are mostly white and older they tend to vote in high percentages. As Morekaos said, the only hope for gun control is to wait until current gun owners die and hope the future demographics of the counrty shift towards those with no tradition of gun ownership.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 09:23:52 AM
GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

So let's prevent gun deaths by wishing for millions of older Americans to die?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 09:37:56 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

Why blame the GOP for lack of gun control? There were several times since the 90s when the Dems had the votes and the WH where they could have acted on this. The Dems made a decision back in the 90s to try to expand its appeal outside of large cities by downplaying its opposition to guns. This is one of the reasons Bill Clinton was so popular with such a broad segment of American society. If you are a politician or political party, you can't ignore the fact that half of US households contain guns and there are far more guns than people in the US and since these people are mostly white and older they tend to vote in high percentages. As Morekaos said, the only hope for gun control is to wait until current gun owners die and hope the future demographics of the counrty shift towards those with no tradition of gun ownership.

Your theory is flawed because the proportion of gun owners is spread almost evenly between all age ranges.  The younger groups are only slightly less likely to own a gun and that is probably due to finances more than a shift in the culture.

Percent of adults with a gun in household:

18-29 ~ 43%
30-49 ~ 39%
50-64 ~ 43%
65+ ~ 45%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-01-10/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 16, 2018, 09:43:48 AM
I can understand fortune 11's impatience regarding the die off of gun owners.

Given the history of this country, most gun owners today probably had parents and grandparents who were gun owners so gun ownership was viewed as a normal thing. In the past, religious, political, and social values tended to be passed down the generations by the family.

Today, our values are transmitted not by the family but my the media, schools, peers, and other things outside the home. It doesn't matter if a young person has a parent or grandparent who owns guns. If he gets more likes, followers, or right swipes by being against guns, all of the family's gun collection will likely end up in the trash once his parents die.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: marmott on February 16, 2018, 09:44:18 AM
I think it will just get worse. With CSGo, PUBG and Overwatch... our next generation is all about guns.

Because we all know playing shooters make you want to own a gun or murder half a school...

I guess the older generation is all about blaming video games.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 09:58:02 AM
I can understand fortune 11's impatience regarding the die off of gun owners.

Well, it's not going to happen in our lifetimes.  Look at the Pew stats that I posted.  Young people own guns at almost the same rate as retired people.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 16, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
I can understand fortune 11's impatience regarding the die off of gun owners.

Well, it's not going to happen in our lifetimes.  Look at the Pew stats that I posted.  Young people own guns at almost the same rate as retired people.

That is very interesting, not what I expected, but I'm OK with it. My son has a gun and will inherit mine when I move on.  He is Generation Z, very conservative kids.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 10:45:14 AM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 10:50:10 AM
Totally not terrorist:

Quote
The 19-year-old accused of being the gunman in the deadly shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida on Wednesday belonged to a white supremacist militia, the group's leader claimed Friday.

The leader of the "Republic of Florida" white supremacist militia claimed in interviews with the Anti-Defamation League and the Associated Press that accused Parkland shooter Nikolas Cruz belonged to the group and trained with other members in paramilitary drills.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was

You, along with the Anti-Defamation League and ABC News, just got trolled by 4chan.

Local law enforcement: No ties between militia and Florida high school shooter
http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

White supremacist tries to walk back made-up story about Nikolas Cruz, blames media
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/vbp37y/white-supremacist-tries-to-walk-back-made-up-story-about-nikolas-cruz-blames-media

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 10:53:13 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

Why blame the GOP for lack of gun control? There were several times since the 90s when the Dems had the votes and the WH where they could have acted on this. The Dems made a decision back in the 90s to try to expand its appeal outside of large cities by downplaying its opposition to guns. This is one of the reasons Bill Clinton was so popular with such a broad segment of American society. If you are a politician or political party, you can't ignore the fact that half of US households contain guns and there are far more guns than people in the US and since these people are mostly white and older they tend to vote in high percentages. As Morekaos said, the only hope for gun control is to wait until current gun owners die and hope the future demographics of the counrty shift towards those with no tradition of gun ownership.

Your theory is flawed because the proportion of gun owners is spread almost evenly between all age ranges.  The younger groups are only slightly less likely to own a gun and that is probably due to finances more than a shift in the culture.

Percent of adults with a gun in household:

18-29 ~ 43%
30-49 ~ 39%
50-64 ~ 43%
65+ ~ 45%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-01-10/


and one more thing - I know people have been conditioned by right screaming media to quickly latch onto partial half truths ,

but please actually read your articles before touting them  - if we applied the same approach to our jobs , we would be out of work in no time

The % of those who personally own a gun is 27-28% all the way through age 40

many people live w their boomer parents or define household differently , but the " personally own a gun " is the number

And how many of these own AR-15s  versus handguns ?  have you given that any thought  ? 

is anyone banning handguns ? no -- but that is what everyone always latches onto when there is talk of controlling  AR-15s access

can people see beyond black and white -- there is something in between called "grey "
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 11:08:59 AM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it.

So I have to agree with you or I am a gun absolutist?  Get real dude.

Your prediction about gun ownership is wrong, and I posted the stats to prove it. 

Rather than accept the truth gracefully and alter your way of thinking, you make baseless attacks against the messenger.

Show me something...anything... that shows younger generations are abandoning guns.  I'll be waiting...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 11:19:27 AM
I think it will just get worse. With CSGo, PUBG and Overwatch... our next generation is all about guns.

Because we all know playing shooters make you want to own a gun or murder half a school...

I guess the older generation is all about blaming video games.

+ 1

Fox News and CNN have done to our parents what they thought violent video games would do to us :) 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 11:21:04 AM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it.

So I have to agree with you or I am a gun absolutist?  Get real dude.

Your prediction about gun ownership is wrong, and I posted the stats to prove it. 

Rather than accept the truth gracefully and alter your way of thinking, you make baseless attacks against the messenger.

Show me something...anything... that shows younger generations are abandoning guns.  I'll be waiting...

yes there is a lot of grace we are showing here .. there for all to see

anyways read my response to your quickly thrown together post regarding those "stats"
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 16, 2018, 11:33:31 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 16, 2018, 12:24:33 PM
Over 90% of all mass killers have one or both of these things in common:

1) They come from broken homes.

2) They were on, or currently on mood altering pharmaceuticals.

Columbine was the exception, but the rule is clear.

As for the broken home piece, both the killer and his younger brother were adopted together - which means they were either in Foster care, or from a relative who gave them up. At minimum, the killer was at least 2 years old when adopted since news reports say his younger brother was 17. Their adoptive mother was 51 at the time she took care of these kids - a remarkable age to be taking in one infant, and a 2 year old if the reported timeline checks out. In the second case, nothing is fully verified, but some are quoted about the killer being "on medication". I'm certain this will be confirmed.

This killer isn't a product of "too many guns" but rather the natural outcome of a society that sloughs off any commitment to family, disparages personal responsibility, and promotes the hyper medication of children as an easy way to control them. Before everyone clutches their pearls about how horrible this may sound, do the research yourself. Facts can be a terrible thing sometimes.

So, do we ban divorce and meds, just as everyone wants to now ban "scary looking guns" (see below) No, because you cannot reshape society overnight, just as you cannot ban lawfully obtained weapons from being misused. There can be tweaks to the law = example: If you're on any mood altering medicine, you must hand over HOUSEHOLD weapons to law enforcement for safe keeping. "but.. but... we need a gun for safety..." OK, let us hold your guns, and give you a Taser in the mean time. Want a "bump stock"? Sure, why not, as long as they can pnly be rented only at shooting range. How about "no-bail, no parole, one-and-done" for anyone using a gun during a crime?

These are the kind of common sense gun laws I think most people would support - caretaking, not confiscation, and meaningful incarceration for real criminals.

As to the argument that "no one should have access to assault rifles" an article for you to review:

 https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/ (https://www.policeone.com/the-tacticalist/articles/7209499-Assault-weapons-vs-sporting-weapons-Whats-the-difference/)


Yes, 99.9% of all mass killers have one thing in common: the use of a gun during their spree (although some now are starting to use trucks now...) If after reading what an "assault rifle" if you still think banning a weapon group because they look frightening to you will solve this problem, perhaps living in a "gun free zone" like Chicago or Washington DC might convince you otherwise.

My .02c

SGIP



Where were the adults? I couldn’t agree more with SGIP

From Parkland to Princeton, America's Adults Abdicate Responsibility

Nineteen-year-old Nikolas Cruz -- who mowed down Parkland, Florida, high school students and teachers, killing 17 and wounding many others -- had been thrown out of the same school for threatening his classmates. He had been bragging to them about having a personal armory and implying he would use it, justifiably frightening them.

Subsequently he posted a photo of that armory, including assault weaponry, on Instagram as well as a photo of a target riddled with bullet holes with the recommendation to try it as "group therapy." He also posted photos of dead animals, well known as a hallmark of serial killers.

 Democrats Rush to Politicize Florida School Shooting
Where were the adults in all this? Why was the youth allowed to have or obtain weapons of any sort -- assault or otherwise -- after having been ejected from school for violent threats? Why were his social media postings not being tracked by the police?  The kids all knew there was a problem.  Again, where were the adults -- not just the police, or even the politicians, but all the adults? They didn't watch Cruz, who was clearly mental ill and clearly evil.  They didn't secure the school, although there had been so many school killings since Columbine. They abdicated.

https://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/parkland-princeton-americas-adults-abdicate-responsibility/ (https://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/parkland-princeton-americas-adults-abdicate-responsibility/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 12:35:00 PM
The Gun Business Needs This Gun-Control Measure: Joe Nocera


"Smart guns" are the exciting new product that the industry needs to revive lagging sales.By Joe Nocera

(Bloomberg View) -- Two days before the horrific school shooting in Parkland, Florida, that killed 17 people on Wednesday, Remington Outdoor Co. announcedthat it was filing for bankruptcy protection.

Remington Outdoor is the world's biggest gun company. In addition to Remington rifles, its brands include Bushmaster, Marlin and DPMS. It is owned by the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management, which is run by Stephen Feinberg, the secretive billionaire investor and pal of President Donald Trump.

Remington semiautomatic rifles were used in 2012 in the Aurora, Colorado, mass shooting and Sandy Hook massacre that traumatized the nation. In the wake of the killings at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, Feinberg said he would sell the company. He never did. A year later, though, he did change the name from Freedom Group to Remington Outdoor Co.

Remington's financial problems result from its own mistakes and an industry-wide downturn. Between 2016 and 2017, its revenue dropped from $865 million to $688 million. A competitor, American Brands Corp. (formerly Smith & Wesson), saw revenue drop from $740 million to $656 million in the same time span. And so on.
It's no secret that the reason for the slowdown in sales is the Trump presidency.

 With a strong supporter of the National Rifle Association in the White House, fewer gun owners are in a frenzy over the prospect that their guns are about to be taken away by the government. So they're not racing to their nearest gun store to stock up every time there's a mass shooting the way they did when Barack Obama was president.
There are also fewer gun owners than there used to be. Less than a third of American households own guns today, compared to nearly half in 1973, according to the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.1Half the guns in the U.S. are owned by 3 percent of the adult population.

If the gun industry hopes to get back on its feet while Trump remains president, it will need to do two things. It will need to expand the universe of customers beyond that core 3 percent. And it needs new products that will get its customers buying guns again.

Which brings us to smart guns.

Smart guns use technology to identify their owners and prevent their use by anybody else. The technology has been around for years — most smart gun prototypes use either biometrics or radio waves — but its introduction has long been blocked by the NRA and its allies.

I don't want to overstate the good that smart guns can do: They would not stop mass shootings by killers like the one in Florida who buy their guns legally. But preventing people from shooting guns that they don't own would reduce all sorts of violence, from suicides to accidental shootings by children to gun crimes that rely on stolen weapons.
Why is the NRA so opposed to smart guns? Because it fears that if smart guns became popular, legislators would mandate that all guns be equipped with the technology.
Indeed, New Jersey passed a law years ago that requires the state's gun retailers to carry only smart guns within three years of the technology becoming commercially available anywhere in the U.S. But gun-control advocates now realize that so long as that law is on the books, the NRA and its allies will never let smart guns reach the market. In 2014, a retailer faced numerous threats after saying he would stock a smart gun in his store. He never did it. New Jersey's new governor, Phil Murphy, now says he wants to change the law as quickly as possible, knowing it's an impediment to bringing smart guns to the market.
And there is evidence that a lot of people would buy a smart gun if they could. For instance, a 2015 poll conducted by Penn Schoen Berland found that 40 percent of gun owners said they would swap their gun for a smart gun. The younger the gun owner, the more likely he or she would be willing to make that swap.2
The person who made me aware of the poll was Ralph Fascitelli, co-founder of LodeStar Firearms, a new smart-gun company. LodeStar has engaged the legendary German gun designer Ernst Mauch to develop a 9-millimeter smart pistol, which will use a radio frequency to connect gun to owner.
Fascitelli pointed me to another bit of research, an online survey of law-enforcement professionals nationwide that showed that 58 percent were interested in smart guns if they were proven reliable. It is hard to know how credible this poll is, but if law enforcement were to back smart guns, it would be a big deal.
It's way too early to know whether LodeStar will be the smart-gun company that breaks through, or even whether there will be a breakthrough. But Fascitelli is correct that the conditions are right, finally, for smart guns.
Smart guns aren't the whole solution to the U.S. gun-violence problem, but they could certainly make a difference.
And they don't require a new law. They just require the market to do its thing.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 16, 2018, 12:49:10 PM
If you drill past the headline number you can tease out some truth.

The truth about gun deaths: numbers and actual solutions

First of all, look at the number of gun deaths on that chart from 2011. It’s 32,351. That’s a lot of gun deaths to be sure. So that’s the total number of murders by gun owners, right? The answer is not only Hell No, but it’s not even remotely close. It’s true that this figure is close to the total number of human lives ended in incidents involving a gun, but that’s all incidents. So how did those deaths happen?

Straight from the CDC where most of the media is drawing their numbers (while not as good of a source as the FBI or the Justice Department) we can find out that of those 32,352 gun deaths, 21,175 of them were suicides. That leaves us with 11,177 deaths to account for. But as it turns out, the FBI records that 8,583 deaths were murders of various sorts involving guns of all types. The remaining roughly 2,500 were accounted for by accidents and unintentional injuries. These include hunting accidents, toddlers getting hold of unsecured weapons and shooting somebody or just plain idiots who proved Darwin right.

Take a good look at those numbers. Of the actual 8,583 gun murders committed in 2011, 323 were committed with “rifles.” And that’s all rifles, including bolt action, deer hunting rifles and all the rest. The number committed with so called “assault rifles” were a fraction of that. When you ask how dangerous those rifles are, compare that to nearly 1,700 who were stabbed as well as nearly 500 murdered with blunt objects and and more than 700 beaten to death by somebody with their bare hands. Enough said on that topic.

https://hotair.com/archives/2015/10/04/the-truth-about-gun-deaths-numbers-and-actual-solutions/ (https://hotair.com/archives/2015/10/04/the-truth-about-gun-deaths-numbers-and-actual-solutions/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 16, 2018, 12:49:20 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 01:09:36 PM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it.

So I have to agree with you or I am a gun absolutist?  Get real dude.

Your prediction about gun ownership is wrong, and I posted the stats to prove it. 

Rather than accept the truth gracefully and alter your way of thinking, you make baseless attacks against the messenger.

Show me something...anything... that shows younger generations are abandoning guns.  I'll be waiting...

yes there is a lot of grace we are showing here .. there for all to see

anyways read my response to your quickly thrown together post regarding those "stats"

I read your post and you admit that 28% of adults 18-39 own a gun, and 40% live in a gun-owning household.  What does that mean to you?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 01:48:44 PM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it.

So I have to agree with you or I am a gun absolutist?  Get real dude.

Your prediction about gun ownership is wrong, and I posted the stats to prove it. 

Rather than accept the truth gracefully and alter your way of thinking, you make baseless attacks against the messenger.

Show me something...anything... that shows younger generations are abandoning guns.  I'll be waiting...

yes there is a lot of grace we are showing here .. there for all to see

anyways read my response to your quickly thrown together post regarding those "stats"

I read your post and you admit that 28% of adults 18-39 own a gun, and 40% live in a gun-owning household.  What does that mean to you?

28 percent is a lot lower than 43 percent . And nowhere near majority . What else do you want me to tell you .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 01:52:23 PM
Where are the adults ?

We regulate many things to save people from themselves

We want adults to be responsible drivers but we still make everyone buy car insurance

This is precisely why we have social safety nets

Just because you happen to be a responsible gun owner and hopefully imparting your kids better knowledge , don’t assume everyone else is .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 02:04:01 PM
you know what , twist my words all you want to make your one liner "gotcha " moments -- you really have to clutch at straws and say things like "wishing for people to die " to extricate yourself out of this illogical position that you find yourself in

on this forum --- clearly gun absolutists far outnumbers those who advocate at least injecting some level of logical debate on this topic . doesn't matter .   

there are more people browsing and reading here than commenting , and they see what I said for whatever its worth.  that's it.

So I have to agree with you or I am a gun absolutist?  Get real dude.

Your prediction about gun ownership is wrong, and I posted the stats to prove it. 

Rather than accept the truth gracefully and alter your way of thinking, you make baseless attacks against the messenger.

Show me something...anything... that shows younger generations are abandoning guns.  I'll be waiting...

yes there is a lot of grace we are showing here .. there for all to see

anyways read my response to your quickly thrown together post regarding those "stats"

I read your post and you admit that 28% of adults 18-39 own a gun, and 40% live in a gun-owning household.  What does that mean to you?

28 percent is a lot lower than 43 percent . And nowhere near majority . What else do you want me to tell you .

It doesn't sound like the kids are giving up guns just yet.  The percentages are only slightly lower than Boomers.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 16, 2018, 02:27:22 PM
I think it will just get worse. With CSGo, PUBG and Overwatch... our next generation is all about guns.

Because we all know playing shooters make you want to own a gun or murder half a school...

I guess the older generation is all about blaming video games.

+ 1

Fox News and CNN have done to our parents what they thought violent video games would do to us :) 


So you guys want to talk seriously about this?

Weren't the shooters in some of the recent shootings big FPS players?

Psychology will tell you that exposure to this type of stuff desensitizes you and for those on the edges, the playing of video games makes them crave the actual experience... not just shooting a gun but shooting live targets.

I'm not saying *everyone* will want to do this, but just like movies, YouTube, whatever, repeated exposure can affect behavior in young people.

I think we can agree that it's the smaller percentage that are the perpetrators of this kind of crime whether it be mental or social disconnection... but there also has to be influences where this disconnection is encouraged.

Now back to the jokes.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 16, 2018, 02:36:10 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 03:01:42 PM
I have been playing fairly violent video games since I grew up. These include classics:

Duke Nukem
Doom
Unreal
Shadow Warrior
Call of Duty
Quake
Grand Theft Auto
Mortal Kombat
Resident Evil
Hitman
For Honor

Many of these are quite bloody, showing limbs being blown off, strangulation (hitman), For Honor is the latest one (showing decapitations) etc.

I disagree. It didn't desensitize me. I know right from wrong. That is fantasy. This is reality. I turned out okay.  ;D

That's implying that adult videos will incite young people to want to go out and commit sexual assault simply because the "actresses" in the videos enjoy it. But in reality, they are just that, actors doing a job and getting paid for it.

Agree . Doom and call of duty for me . But see , I Still turned out to be a gun safety advocate :)

One example , one example , one example ... yes yes yes

All you have to look at is combined sales of these video games and the percentage of active real life shooters from those ... evidence is pretty clear here from hard data ( my favorite word )
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 16, 2018, 03:05:52 PM
Again, for the majority it will have no effect.

It’s the fringe who are at risk. And the increasing realism and even VR experience makes it more influential.

If it affected the majority it would be 18 not 3.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: marmott on February 16, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
But would the fringe not be affected by any other violent media around?

Nobody seems to be in a hurry to blame violent movies or TV shows.

Regarding VR, good luck finding something remotely realistic right now. VR has been pretty dead for a while, no AAA title was developed for it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 04:22:42 PM
Don't forget listening to heavy metal music and playing Dungeons & Dragons turns people evil too.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 04:26:52 PM
Psychology will tell you that exposure to this type of stuff desensitizes you and for those on the edges, the playing of video games makes them crave the actual experience... not just shooting a gun but shooting live targets.

I remember after playing a lot of GTA3, I felt like blowing people up with bazookas that cut me off on the 405.  But I never did.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: marmott on February 16, 2018, 04:34:54 PM
Sims 4 modder makes $6,000 per month peddling digital drugs
https://www.techspot.com/news/73316-sims-4-modder-makes-6000-month-peddling-digital.html (https://www.techspot.com/news/73316-sims-4-modder-makes-6000-month-peddling-digital.html)

The mod is called "Basemental," and it introduces marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines, and MDMA (aka Molly, X, Ecstasy) to the game, which the sims can buy, consume, and sell. It also added a "drug dealer" trait so you can create a sim that can supply the illicit contraband. The mod even has a relatively complex system that not only makes the sims act high, hungover, or crashed out, but also allows them to become addicted, overdose (fatally and nonfatally), and get arrested for drug possession.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 16, 2018, 04:42:35 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 16, 2018, 05:02:12 PM
But would the fringe not be affected by any other violent media around?

Nobody seems to be in a hurry to blame violent movies or TV shows.

Uhhh. I did mention other media in my post.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 16, 2018, 05:21:33 PM
As I've said previously, there is no accurate statistics on firearm ownership because we don't have a comprehensive system of firearm registration in every state or nation-wide.  In California for example, DOJ did not even retain information on long gun transactions until 2014.  Prior to 1968 (GCA) serial numbers weren't even required for firearms, and only recently did we pass laws requiring serial numbers for home made firearms.

The kind of "statistics" that are often cited are compiled from telephone surveys.  They're inaccurate due to low level of public trust to these kind of cold calls.  If someone cold called me to ask what's in my gun safe, I'd tell them I don't own any and hang up.  Pro-gun rights publications are inclined to exaggerate ownership numbers versus pro-gun control outlets, like those under Bloomberg LP, are likely to understate the ownership numbers.

When Gallup did surveys on gun ownership, the results came out like this:
1983:  40%
1993:  51%
1999:  34%
2012:  45%
2015:  43%

Citing survey results as facts and figures is wishful thinking at best, pathological lying at worst.  Realistically I wouldn't even know how to calculate the number of 80% lower receivers sold and assembled off-record.  I've seen them advertised for as low as $33, complete kits for $60 w/jig kits.  When 3D milling machines become affordable people can just point and click to mill their own components at home.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 05:33:42 PM
The more  deleterious effect on mental health that I can see is older citizens watching too much Fox News ...

 A Rigorous Scientific Look Into The 'Fox News Effect'



In 2012, a Fairleigh Dickinson University survey reported that Fox News viewers were less informed about current events than people who didn't follow the news at all. The survey had asked current events questions like "Which party has the most seats in the House of Representatives?" and also asked what source of news people followed. The Fox viewers' current events scores were in the basement. This finding was immediately trumpeted by the liberal media—by Fox, not so much—and has since become known as the Fox News effect. It conjures the image of Fox News as a black hole that sucks facts out of viewers' heads.

I have done similar surveys, both of current events and more general knowledge. In my research too, Fox News viewers scored the lowest of over 30 popular news sources (though Fox viewers did at least score better than those saying they didn't follow the news). The chart’s horizontal black lines with tick marks indicate the margins of statistical error. Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, a news satire, had the best-informed viewers.

Stereotypes aside, it's not that Fox News viewers live in a bubble and get all their news from that one source. The average Fox viewer listed 4.5 other source of news they regularly followed. Many also got news from the major broadcast networks, Facebook, and the liberal news channel MSNBC. Nevertheless, those who listed Fox News as one of their news sources had overall lower levels of knowledge on the factual questions. Fox viewers were less likely to know the capital of Canada, the religion of the Dalai Lama, or the size of the Federal budget. They couldn't find South Carolina on map or name the second digit of pi.

The Fox News effect is a correlation. It doesn't prove that watching Fox News causes people to be ill-informed.

Causes are much trickier to establish. I will give my guesses (along with the warning that they're only guesses). The first thing to realize is that every news medium has its own audience demographics. It's no secret to advertisers that the average Fox News viewer has less formal education and income than the average New York Times reader.

The Times is urban and urbane; Fox is small-town/suburban and populist. Fox competes directly against hundreds of other cable channels and has established a specialized niche in its media ecology. Fox trades in stories about the venality of big government, liberal overreach and little-guy heroes of the heartland. A large share of Fox stories deftly push emotional buttons (lest the viewer push the buttons on his or her remote…)

This format has been successful, but it has drawbacks. There's a lot that goes on in the world that doesn't easily fit the Fox template. There are important stories that don't make anyone angry, prove liberals are evil or otherwise carry an emotional punch. Fox viewers get less of them. Fox News is like an all-you-can-eat buffet, serving up red meat. A more balanced diet might be healthier in the long run.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 05:38:38 PM
This is an older article before OReilly and Ailes were fired ...  from a competing outlet -- but most of what they say here rings true ..

Fox News and the anxious elderly

"Viewers don't want to be informed. Viewers want to feel informed."

Those are the words of Chet Collier, one of the founders of Fox News, as quoted in Gabriel Sherman's new biography of Roger Ailes, the network's chief.
Mission apparently accomplished: Fox is the most-watched cable news network, and yet, some surveys suggest that people who rely on Fox as their primary information source know less about current events than people who watch no news at all.

But to jab at Fox for inaccuracy is to miss Fox's purpose. Fox has created an information community. We used to say, "Everybody's entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." In a mass media age, what counted as "fact" was defined by a few great national institutions: a small group of prestigious newspapers, a pair of leading news magazines, a trio of television broadcasters.


Dissenters had a difficult time reaching any kind of large audience -- or even identifying who their audience might be.

Advancing technology opened new possibilities, and Sherman's biography deftly tells the story of how it happened.

The launch of CNN inspired NBC to create a cable news channel of its own, CNBC. Roger Ailes -- a former TV producer who had emerged as the most successful Republican campaign consultant of the 1980s -- was hired to run CNBC. After he lost an internal power struggle, Ailes joined Rupert Murdoch's Fox network.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

Before Fox, news programmers had struggled with the question of what their product was. Did it include health information, and if so, how much? Weather? Financial information? Human interest? Political opinion? Ailes built his new channel upon a very different question: who is my product for?


The largest generation in American history, the baby boomers, were reaching deep middle age by the mid-1990s. They were beginning to share an experience familiar to all who pass age 50: living in a country very different from the one they had been born into.

Fox offered them a new virtual environment in which they could feel more at home than they did in the outside world. Fox was carefully designed to look like a TV show from the 1970s: no holograms, no urban hipster studios, lots of primary colors.


In other respects too, Fox offered a path back to a vanishing past. Here was a place in which men were firmly in charge, and in which women were valued most for their physical attractiveness. Here was a place in which ethnic minorities appeared only in secondary roles -- and then, with brave exceptions, only to affirm the rightness of the opinions of the white males in the primary roles.

Back in the 1970s, students of public opinion had noticed a strange anomaly: in the very years, 1967-1973, when trust in government, business, the military and organized religion most sharply declined, trust in television rose. Some speculated that TV as an institution had an inherently adversarial relationship to other institutions: TV enhanced its own credibility by denigrating the credibility of everything and everyone that wasn't TV.

That theory was coded into the DNA of Fox. Here, on this station, the chosen market segment could enjoy security and validation. Out there was depicted a hostile world of threats, danger, crime, and decaying values.

In the nearly two decades since the launch of Fox, the average age of the viewers has increased -- and so has their alienation from a country that twice elected Barack Obama to the presidency.

Economic prospects have narrowed and darkened for middle-income people. First the stock market, then the housing market, then the gold market bubbled and burst -- taking the savings of the unwary with them. Americans in their 60s have reason to worry about the stability of Social Security and Medicare.

New claims on government assistance -- unemployment insurance, health care spending on under-65s -- can be seen as drains on resources that would otherwise flow to the over-65s.

The question famously associated with Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, "Who's looking out for you?" resonates especially powerfully in the ears of the economically anxious elderly in a rapidly changing country.

Gabriel Sherman tells eyebrow-raising stories about Roger Ailes. Always a man who kept enemies' lists, Ailes has -- in Sherman's account -- succumbed to increasing apprehension as he has gained increasing power. His office is secured with a double set of locked and coded doors. His country home features a panic room. Former employees report being followed and suspect their e-mail has been read. The anxiety that permeates Fox News' broadcasts emanates authentically from the man at the top. Yet it speaks also to something pervasive in Fox's audience too.

Like talk radio before it, but even more intensely, Fox offered information programmed not as a stream of randomly connected facts, but as a means of self-definition and a refuge from a hostile external reality. Fox is a news medium that functions as a social medium.

How this new kind of TV news was built, and at what price, is the story painstakingly narrated by Gabriel Sherman in his indispensable book. What to think of this new kind of information entity is up to you. He only reports. You'll have to decide.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
As I've said previously, there is no accurate statistics on firearm ownership because we don't have a comprehensive system of firearm registration in every state or nation-wide.  In California for example, DOJ did not even retain information on long gun transactions until 2014.  Prior to 1968 (GCA) serial numbers weren't even required for firearms, and only recently did we pass laws requiring serial numbers for home made firearms.

The kind of "statistics" that are often cited are compiled from telephone surveys.  They're inaccurate due to low level of public trust to these kind of cold calls.  If someone cold called me to ask what's in my gun safe, I'd tell them I don't own any and hang up.  Pro-gun rights publications are inclined to exaggerate ownership numbers versus pro-gun control outlets, like those under Bloomberg LP, are likely to understate the ownership numbers.

When Gallup did surveys on gun ownership, the results came out like this:
1983:  40%
1993:  51%
1999:  34%
2012:  45%
2015:  43%

Citing survey results as facts and figures is wishful thinking at best, pathological lying at worst.  Realistically I wouldn't even know how to calculate the number of 80% lower receivers sold and assembled off-record.  I've seen them advertised for as low as $33, complete kits for $60 w/jig kits.  When 3D milling machines become affordable people can just point and click to mill their own components at home.

Good post

and herein  lies the problem -- if you can measure and track gun ownership , how do you even begin to solve this complex problem.  We can register cars , boats , motorcycles, and track them down --- why cant we do the same for all guns sold. 

Criminals will always find a way to buy illegal guns just as criminals will find a way to buy illegal cars.  But that doesn't mean we throw our hands up and stop doing anything about it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 16, 2018, 05:58:45 PM
Maybe somebody should start a Fox News thread so you can guys can talk about it as a stand-alone subject.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 16, 2018, 06:05:38 PM
If this was in the hood people won’t care or the media wouldn’t cover that much.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 16, 2018, 07:40:20 PM
If you drill past the headline number you can tease out some truth.

The truth about gun deaths: numbers and actual solutions

First of all, look at the number of gun deaths on that chart from 2011. It’s 32,351. That’s a lot of gun deaths to be sure. So that’s the total number of murders by gun owners, right? The answer is not only Hell No, but it’s not even remotely close. It’s true that this figure is close to the total number of human lives ended in incidents involving a gun, but that’s all incidents. So how did those deaths happen?

Straight from the CDC where most of the media is drawing their numbers (while not as good of a source as the FBI or the Justice Department) we can find out that of those 32,352 gun deaths, 21,175 of them were suicides. That leaves us with 11,177 deaths to account for. But as it turns out, the FBI records that 8,583 deaths were murders of various sorts involving guns of all types. The remaining roughly 2,500 were accounted for by accidents and unintentional injuries. These include hunting accidents, toddlers getting hold of unsecured weapons and shooting somebody or just plain idiots who proved Darwin right.

Take a good look at those numbers. Of the actual 8,583 gun murders committed in 2011, 323 were committed with “rifles.” And that’s all rifles, including bolt action, deer hunting rifles and all the rest. The number committed with so called “assault rifles” were a fraction of that. When you ask how dangerous those rifles are, compare that to nearly 1,700 who were stabbed as well as nearly 500 murdered with blunt objects and and more than 700 beaten to death by somebody with their bare hands. Enough said on that topic.

https://hotair.com/archives/2015/10/04/the-truth-about-gun-deaths-numbers-and-actual-solutions/ (https://hotair.com/archives/2015/10/04/the-truth-about-gun-deaths-numbers-and-actual-solutions/)

Of course, the gun confiscation advocates know that only a tiny fraction of gun deaths are related to assault rifle use.  They talk incessantly about assault rifles despite their virtual irrelevance in gun deaths because they think it is a photogenic prop to disguise their real agenda which is to ban all guns. Assault rifles are used as the camel's nose under the tent which they hope to use to bring the whole camel into the tent. Same way Dems use DACA as a photogenic prop when DACA only represents a tiny percentage of total illegal immigrants. Dems hope that DACA will be the camel's nose that gets the whole camel (all illegals) into the tent.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 16, 2018, 09:15:08 PM
Maybe somebody should start a Fox News thread so you can guys can talk about it as a stand-alone subject.
This is a partisan hack thread and nothing more.  Those members cant wait for stuff like this to happen (kids dying) so they can spread their hate more.  Its sick.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 16, 2018, 09:20:12 PM
Some people really need therapy  ... I wish them all the best in fighting their persecution complex

Our country will be better for it
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: wrigley on February 16, 2018, 09:41:15 PM
What is the rationale for non-military/law enforcement owning an AR-15 type weapon, other than it's a very effective weapon?  The statistics on deaths caused by long rifles do not reflect that a single person with an AR-15 type weapon can kill many with very little difficulty.  The AR-15 is easy to shoot, easy to modify, and easy to maintain, as per the needs of the military it was designed for.  It should not be in the hands of the general public.  If limiting the sales of these weapons will prevent one school shooting, or even decrease the number of deaths in an event, it is worth it.

The truth is, children are dying.  Many more are traumatized forever.  The argument that evil people will find a way doesn't fly with me.  Maybe if it took a few weeks longer for this kid to get a weapon, someone could have caught him.  These families are shattered, we owe it to them to do something.  I think it needs to be addressed on multiple fronts, from gun control laws, to armed guards at schools, even to changing the way we design schools.  It really is only a matter of time before something happens much closer to home.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 17, 2018, 07:37:31 AM
What is the rationale for non-military/law enforcement owning an AR-15 type weapon, other than it's a very effective weapon?  The statistics on deaths caused by long rifles do not reflect that a single person with an AR-15 type weapon can kill many with very little difficulty.  The AR-15 is easy to shoot, easy to modify, and easy to maintain, as per the needs of the military it was designed for.  It should not be in the hands of the general public.  If limiting the sales of these weapons will prevent one school shooting, or even decrease the number of deaths in an event, it is worth it.

The truth is, children are dying.  Many more are traumatized forever.  The argument that evil people will find a way doesn't fly with me.  Maybe if it took a few weeks longer for this kid to get a weapon, someone could have caught him.  These families are shattered, we owe it to them to do something.  I think it needs to be addressed on multiple fronts, from gun control laws, to armed guards at schools, even to changing the way we design schools.  It really is only a matter of time before something happens much closer to home.

AR 15 civilian owners are a protected , coddled class

This is the affirmative action hiding in plain sight

The most mind boggling stat is 3 percent of Americans own half the guns in this country

That 3 percent has more power than images of dead kids and their crying parents on the TV screen every few weeks

Are we still a democracy ?

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 18, 2018, 08:21:15 AM
When Will We Have the Guts to Link Fatherlessness to School Shootings?

Now that the gun control advocates have had their fifteen minutes of fame, let’s start focusing on the real issues impacting the rise in school shootings since that infamous day in Columbine in 1999. Issue number one that no one in the mainstream media or government wants to acknowledge: fatherlessness. Specifically, the impact of fatherlessness on the boys who grew up to become school shooters.

Dr. Warren Farrell, author of the new book The Boy Crisis, explains:

Minimal or no father involvement, whether due to divorce, death, or imprisonment, is common to Adam Lanza, Elliott Rodgers, Dylan Roof  and Stephen Paddock.
In the case of 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz, he was adopted at birth. His adoptive dad died when Nikolas was much younger, and doubtless the challenges of this fatherlessness was compounded by the death of his adoptive mom three and a half months ago.

The rate of mass shootings has tripled since 2011. We blame guns, violence in the media, violence in video games, and poor family values. Each is a plausible player. But our daughters live in the same homes, with the same access to the same guns, video games, and media, and are raised with the same family values. Our daughters are not killing. Our sons are.

But boys with significant father involvement are not doing these shootings. Without dads as role models, boys’ testosterone is not well channeled. The boy experiences a sense of purposelessness, a lack of boundary enforcement, rudderlessness, and often withdraws into video games and video porn. At worst, when boys’ testosterone is not well-channeled by an involved dad, boys become among the world’s most destructive forces. When boys’ testosterone is well channeled by an involved dad, boys become among the world’s most constructive forces.

As Terry Brennan, co-founder of Leading Women for Shared Parenting, notes:

72 percent of adolescent murderers grew up without fathers; the same for 60 percent of all rapists.
70 percent of juveniles in state institutions grew up in single- or no-parent situations

The number of single-parent households is a good predictor of violent crime in a community, while poverty rate is not.

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/will-guts-link-fatherlessness-school-shootings/ (https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/will-guts-link-fatherlessness-school-shootings/)


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Loco_local on February 18, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
When will we admit that every single mass shooter had 46 chromosomes? You never hear of someone with 47 doing something this heinous. Someone should conduct a study and publish a paper on this topic.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 18, 2018, 10:23:32 AM
When will we admit that every single mass shooter had 46 chromosomes? You never hear of someone with 47 doing something this heinous. Someone should conduct a study and publish a paper on this topic.

Maybe...Hollywood thought it important enough to make a show about it...

Glee's School Shooter Has Down Syndrome

Last night's especially very special episode of Glee took on the hot-button topic of school shooting. A series of gunshots put everyone in William McKinley High School in lock down. No one was actually shot, so the episode was kind of inert and lacking the sort of catharsis that would come from watching people on Glee die.

In the end, it turned out that Becky did it. Becky is Glee's resident character with Down syndrome.

http://gawker.com/5994515/glees-school-shooter-has-down-syndrome (http://gawker.com/5994515/glees-school-shooter-has-down-syndrome)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 18, 2018, 04:09:30 PM
I really, really want to believe that once "assault rifles" are banned, all of the Bloombergs, Soros', and other liberal crusader billionaires who bankroll the gun ban movement will declare victory and close up their gun control shop.

But I don't' believe this.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 18, 2018, 04:20:10 PM

If anyone still doesn’t believe how far down the rabbit hole or abyss we now are —- last few days you are seeing many Americans defend a foreign power who launched an attack our country and at the same time attack and insult teen survivors of a US school shooting for discussing policies with which they disagree.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 18, 2018, 04:47:45 PM
This will be big ... and mark a turning point in history where a cascading effect will take place in the weeks and months to come

For all of Trump's other flaws , he does have a good pulse on public moods (when and if it tips more than 65-70% in one direction) ...  and he will be the first to claim credit here, if any is to be taken. 

NRA hasn't dealt with high school kids  ... and this level of social media pressure .... yet ... they are about to find out what they are up against 


Florida teen shooting survivors announce 'March for Our Lives' demonstration in DC


Teen survivors of the school shooting massacre in Florida last week are calling for a march on Washington to demand action on gun control.

Student organizers of the protest told ABC News' "This Week" Co-Anchor Martha Raddatz on Sunday that they are determined to use protests and political action to make the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida, a turning point in the national debate over gun control.

“People keep asking us, 'What about the Stoneman Douglas shooting is going to be different, because this has happened before and change hasn't come?'” Cameron Kasky, an 11th-grader told Raddatz. “This is it.”

“People are saying that it’s not time to talk about gun control. And we can respect that,” Kasky added. “Here’s a time. March 24th in every single city. We are going to be marching together as students begging for our lives.”

Called "March for Our Lives," the demonstration should transcend politics, according to Kasky and four of his classmates whom Raddatz also interviewed -- Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg, Alex Wind and Jaclyn Corin.

"This isn't about the GOP," Kasky said. "This isn't about the Democrats. This is about the adults. We feel neglected and at this point, you're either with us or against us."

PHOTO: South Broward High School sophomore Genesis Campbell leads her classmates in protest in front of their school, Feb. 16, 2018, in response to a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.Dorothy Edwards/Naples Daily News via USA Today Network
South Broward High School sophomore Genesis Campbell leads her classmates in protest in front of their school, Feb. 16, 2018, in response to a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.more +
“Any politician on either side who is taking money from the NRA is responsible for events like this,” the high school junior said of the shooting on Feb. 14 that killed 17 students and teachers at the school. “At the end of the day, the NRA is fostering and promoting this gun culture.”

Kasky said the point is to "create a new normal where there's a badge of shame on any politician who's accepting money from the NRA.”

Gonzalez added that the student activists from Parkland want to have conversations about guns with President Donald Trump, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Gov. Rick Scott, also a Republican.

“We want to give them the opportunity to be on the right side of this,” she said.

Raddatz asked Gonzalez what she would say to other students around the country to encourage them to join the protest.

The high school senior said, "The kids who need to take part in this are kids, everyday kids just like us. They are students who need to understand that this can very quickly happen to them ... They need to join us, and they need to help us get our message across. All students should realize that a school shooting could happen anywhere."
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 19, 2018, 09:56:08 AM
So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 19, 2018, 10:21:01 AM
So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

The wall+metal detector. :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 19, 2018, 07:18:34 PM
After Florida School Shooting, Russian ‘Bot’ Army Pounced

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/russian-bots-school-shooting.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: wrigley on February 19, 2018, 10:47:57 PM
So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

This is a complex problem that requires attacking from multiple directions.  I find it a little disturbing that people feel a need to make jokes about it.  Gun control is only one aspect.  The frustration these students feel is that literally NOTHING has been done.  You can both protect the second amendment and make it more difficult for these tragedies to occur.  It seems to require more thought and perspective than our partisan society is capable of. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 20, 2018, 07:19:55 AM
So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

This is a complex problem that requires attacking from multiple directions.  I find it a little disturbing that people feel a need to make jokes about it.  Gun control is only one aspect.  The frustration these students feel is that literally NOTHING has been done.  You can both protect the second amendment and make it more difficult for these tragedies to occur.  It seems to require more thought and perspective than our partisan society is capable of.

Perhaps we need to be a more accepting and kinder society?  Apparently this guy was bullied and ridiculed, probably for his whole life.  We're so quick to blame "the gun", but it sounds to me like his peers certainly played a part in creating this monster.  There's a reason he chose to shoot up the school, as opposed to a grocery store or a mall.  He decided he was going to make a power play on the people who mocked him his whole life.

Quote
To Cruz, the campus’ sun-splashed courtyards were a dark place where he was mocked and ridiculed for his odd behavior, according to interviews with close family friends, students and recently released police and mental health reports.

“Someone could have approached a faculty member, a guidance counselor, a teacher and said, ‘This kid gets bullied a lot, someone should do something,’ ” said student Manolo Alvarez, 17, who had history class with Cruz. “I regret definitely not saying anything.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Ready2Downsize on February 20, 2018, 09:27:45 AM
So which of the proposed gun control solutions would have prevented the massacre last week?

Probably none but what is so frustrating in this particular case is there were tips about this guy, he was expelled and not allowed to be on campus with a backpack, etc. The FBI knew about him and then we get this tragedy.

My brother in law had lots of guns (for hunting).

He and my sister in law tried for years to get us to move close to them (Colfax on 13 acres) and the one thing that always comes to mind when I think of him is what he said to us at least 30 years ago.......... "Its not good to have so many people live so close together and mark my words, violence and mental health problems are going to come up and that's why we moved out here". It's not like he lived like Ted Kazinski. They had regular jobs, public schools, etc but they were firm believers that pushing people so close together is just not a good thing.

After they moved they never locked their doors. They did have two dogs and those guns to protect their abode. No way was he about to give up those guns....... but then again he did use them for hunting. His hunting and fishing trips were at least a month long. I never knew them to buy meat from the grocery store. They only ate what they brought home from the wild.

Deer that were caught eating my sister in law's flowers didn't live to tell about it. That took care of their deer problem.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 20, 2018, 09:28:38 AM
I'm not really into the whole gun control issue but from a high view, banning of a certain type of gun doesn't really address the problem.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

And I know we focus on schools because that's where the higher concentration of our kids are, but these things can happen at malls and other public places where security is even more lax. I think the only real solution is preventative at the location like Downtown Disney... bag checks and metal detectors.

But that's almost impossible for areas which don't have fences and are open like most of Irvine's schools for example... or any park. So then what?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 20, 2018, 09:40:31 AM
Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

I don't understand this at all.   14 more kids living is a good thing...not a negative. 

So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 20, 2018, 09:44:22 AM
Honestly...at this point....I am pretty much done with the "gun debate"  I have seen so many strawman, hyperboles, and crazy "slippery slope" arguments on here and on FB that I am pretty convinced that none of the gun rights advocates are actually willing to listen and compromise.

So the only good thing that may come out of this horrific shooting is that the younger generation of people will lead us to a new future where guns are not more important than people.  Sorry young people...our generation keeps messing things up for you.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 20, 2018, 09:44:44 AM
https://mystudentapt.com/2015/10/06/theres-a-way-to-stop-mass-shootings-and-you-wont-like-it/

The article is titled "you won't like it" because it requires the students to do something personally, like engaging (being kind to) outcasts and loners on personal level instead of feel good marches & shouting at the government to do something for them.

Consider if you have a young coworker named Akbar with opposing socio-political views.  Regardless of your opinions you should never be rude or unkind because some day when he goes to a prayer meeting and a jihadi recruiter with forked tongue tries to recruit him, every interaction he has had with people like you and me will affect his decision.

In the dark corners of the internet you will find angry people who calls school shooting as acts of "pest control" and the school shooters "martyrs".  Reaching those dark corners is just a click away from your mouse or smartphone where angry people egg others on.  It takes many years to build up that level of hate, and we continue to squander every opportunity to turn them around.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 20, 2018, 09:46:53 AM
Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.

Just like i said days ago.  Nothing will come of all these "protest marches" and hand wringing
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 20, 2018, 09:56:35 AM
Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

I don't understand this at all.   14 more kids living is a good thing...not a negative. 
Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.

Quote
So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 20, 2018, 10:02:40 AM
Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.


Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Quote

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 20, 2018, 10:35:15 AM
I think the existing gun restrictions should have prevented him from purchasing an AR-15.

-He was reported to the FBI as recently as Jan 5th.  (One other time as well.)
-It's coming out today that he was reported to school administration at least 3 times.
-He had brought weapons to school in the past - knives to sell on one occasion and bullets on another occasion.
-He had been in fights.
-He had verbally threatened to kills students and parents.
-He physically abused his girlfriend, then stalked her when she broke up with him.

So why was he not arrested?  Well, there are some theories starting to float around.

A few years ago Broward County schools implemented new policies to reduce the number of arrests, particularly for black and hispanic students (of which Cruz is categorized).  They scrapped 'Zero Tolerance' in favor of eliminating the 'School-to-Prison Pipeline'.

Reversing Broward County's School-to-Prison Pipeline
DECEMBER 4, 2013
Quote
When, after a nationwide search, he was hired two years ago to serve as superintendent of Florida’s Broward County Public Schools, Robert Runcie began brainstorming ways to close the racial achievement gap. At the time, black students in the sixth-largest district in the country had a graduation rate of only 61 percent compared to 81 percent for white students. To find out why, Runcie, who once headed a management-consulting firm, went to the data.

“One of the first things I saw was a huge differential in minority students, black male students in particular, in terms of suspensions and arrests,” he says. Black students made up two-thirds of all suspensions during the 2011-2012 school year despite comprising only 40 percent of the student body. And while there were 15,000 serious incidents like assaults and drug possession reported that year, 85 percent of all 82,000 suspensions were for minor incidents—use of profanity, disruptions of class—and 71 percent of all 1,000-plus arrests were for misdemeanors. The last statistic, says Runcie, “was a huge red flag.”

Broward announced broad changes designed to mitigate the use of harsh punishments for minor misbehavior at the beginning of this school year. While other districts have amended their discipline codes, prohibited arrests in some circumstances, and developed alternatives to suspension, Broward was able to do all these things at once with the cooperation of a group  that included a member of the local NAACP, a school board member, a public defender, a local sheriff, a state prosecutor, and several others. In early November, The Miami Herald reported that suspensions were already down 40 percent and arrests were down 66 percent. Yet these changes required years of advocacy. The hard scrabble road to Broward’s success also helps explain why zero tolerance policies have persisted.

http://prospect.org/article/reversing-broward-countys-school-prison-pipeline

It's funny how something recently viewed as a success story, may soon be viewed as an absolute failure to protect students.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 20, 2018, 10:45:07 AM
Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.


Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Quote

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.
Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 20, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.


Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Quote

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.
Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.

It's not a trap.  You basically said even if gun control works...so what it's not perfect.

Quote
Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

It may not be perfect but if it works...it's certainly a step worth taking.  No one has ever said that the it is the only solution.  It is the only solution that is apparently not allowed to be on the table.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 20, 2018, 11:11:58 AM
Yes you don't understand. What I meant is that a kid will still die... do you think it's any less tragic for the parents who lost their child knowing that only their kid died?

Do you think gun control is the most effective thing we can do? Again, not a follower of statistics regarding gun control, but has it shown to dramatically reduce these type of incidents (where anyone dies, not 17 vs 3)?

Take the AR-15 away from the shooter and give him 2 handguns... is 10 less negative than 17? Not for those 10... or the 3... or the 1.


Yes for the 7 that lived..or the 14...or the 16.  Perfect should never be the enemy of the good.  We don't stop trying to cure cancer because we can't cure all of the cancer patients.

Yes...plenty of studies show it. 

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


So basically we just shouldn't do anything because there will always be bad people.

Quote

Is that what I said? Or are you just trying to be argumentative because I don't see anywhere in my post where I said we shouldn't do anything.

You basically stated that having fewer gun violence victims is not that big of a deal and that there will always be knives and other destructive devices.
Nope.

What I said is anyone dying, no matter the number, is a big deal.

So just reducing the number is not good enough... we should do that and we also have to do other things that prevents all violence altogether.

I think you're reading my first sentence about "not being into gun control" as I don't believe in gun control. What I meant is I don't follow all the gun control issues and statistics.

From there, you've colored all my other statements as evidence that I don't think we should do anything whereas I think we should do anything that looks at different angles that not just cover gun violence but all violence.

Sorry man... not gonna catch me in your trap.

It's not a trap.  You basically said even if gun control works...so what it's not perfect.

Quote
Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

It may not be perfect but if it works...it's certainly a step worth taking.  No one has ever said that the it is the only solution.  It is the only solution that is apparently not allowed to be on the table.

Did I ever say it's not a step worth taking? All I said was it's not enough. You keep quoting my post out of context, the bolded parts are what you are ignoring:

Quote
I'm not really into the whole gun control issue but from a high view, banning of a certain type of gun doesn't really address the problem.

Sure, you can do much more damage with an AR-15 but a small handgun can still kill people. So whether it's 17 kids or 3 kids... somebody dies.

So really, it's hard to say the solution is gun control, it will help, but at the end of the day, as people have commented here, if all guns were gone, these news stories would be about knife attacks or whatever is the next lethal weapon.

And I know we focus on schools because that's where the higher concentration of our kids are, but these things can happen at malls and other public places where security is even more lax. I think the only real solution is preventative at the location like Downtown Disney... bag checks and metal detectors.

But that's almost impossible for areas which don't have fences and are open like most of Irvine's schools for example... or any park. So then what?

Gun control fails in the areas I bolded.

So even if we had perfect gun control, bad things can happen.

That doesn't mean I am saying we shouldn't have gun control. What it means is we should do that AND more.

Does that make sense to you yet? For some reason you keep focusing on me saying that gun control isn't enough... and you are making that into some leap that I am saying we shouldn't do anything. When what I am saying is "What else can we do *in addition to* gun control?".

Again, you are looking for something to argue with me about and it's just not there.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 20, 2018, 06:27:13 PM
Nothing.

Tearful Parkland survivors watch Florida House reject assault gun ban

http://dailym.ai/2oc9XgI (http://dailym.ai/2oc9XgI)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 20, 2018, 11:18:58 PM
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence

You know that guns don't do...reduce crime.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
One of my peeve's is fake science acting like it's real science.  Sorry, but science requires adequate controls and a lot more.  Statistics can be given a biased perspective. 
I think "studies" or "statistics" would be better than "scientific evidence". 

BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with those studies.  Just pointing out a peeve.

Here's a counter argument:
Math might show that gun control leads to more innocent deaths...  (maybe)
(https://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/gun-control-experts-agree.jpg)

Oh but that's all a long time ago.  Well...  My immediate family needed a gun to escape Vietnam.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 21, 2018, 04:45:05 AM
What’s up with all the graphic imagery suddenly popping up with right leaning posts in all these trump / gun threads ... the quality and loud graphics  suggests copy and pasted from Russian troll farm sites , or lifted from one of those links from drudge :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 21, 2018, 10:16:40 AM
Gun control will not work.  Let's put it in terms of obesity.  Why is the country so obese?  Sugary foods, lack of exercise, eating to combat stress and depression, etc.  I deem twinkies (killing with an AR-15) as the #1 cause of obesity (school shootings) and a danger to society.  Let's control twinkies so only people that pass certain eating habit tests and are thin enough can buy them.  What is the result?  We may have less obesity in the short term, but in the long term the people that don't develop good eating and exercise habits will still become obese by turning to eating sugary cereal (killing with pump shotguns).  Hmmm...let's put restrictions on sugary cereal because that is now the #1 cause of obesity.  I think you can see where this is going.

When something tragic happens, we always need to find a cause that we can blame and then try to address.  That's human nature.  Except we're going about this all wrong.  We're trying to address a problem too far down the line.  Any problem solving logic will tell you to start from the beginning, not from the end.  We're starting from the end with gun control - that's how you can tell the gun control debate is based on pure emotion.  We're not being logical in trying to diagnose this problem.  If we were being logical, we would look at all of the contributing factors to this latest shooting, starting from the beginning of this guy's life.


All of these things contributed to the school shooting.  Do a better job of addressing these issues as our young people grow up and we can completely avoid school shootings.  Gun control is not an issue anymore.  I'm not afraid to say that these same students who bullied him his whole life are the ones who contributed to this tragedy. 

We need to do a better job at making every student feel welcome and providing a better support system for young people growing up so that these developing minds don't go off and commit tragedies like this.  We need to pay our teachers more, train them to better understand and address students like this by making school a positive environment, add more support systems for troubled students who don't have support systems, and maybe even implement a zero tolerance bullying policy.

The sooner we realize that we need to start from the beginning, not the end, the sooner we will be able to do finally make a change.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 10:39:36 AM
Gun control will not work.  Let's put it in terms of obesity.  Why is the country so obese?  Sugary foods, lack of exercise, eating to combat stress and depression, etc.  I deem twinkies (killing with an AR-15) as the #1 cause of obesity (school shootings) and a danger to society.  Let's control twinkies so only people that pass certain eating habit tests and are thin enough can buy them.  What is the result?  We may have less obesity in the short term, but in the long term the people that don't develop good eating and exercise habits will still become obese by turning to eating sugary cereal (killing with pump shotguns).  Hmmm...let's put restrictions on sugary cereal because that is now the #1 cause of obesity.  I think you can see where this is going.

When something tragic happens, we always need to find a cause that we can blame and then try to address.  That's human nature.  Except we're going about this all wrong.  We're trying to address a problem too far down the line.  Any problem solving logic will tell you to start from the beginning, not from the end.  We're starting from the end with gun control - that's how you can tell the gun control debate is based on pure emotion.  We're not being logical in trying to diagnose this problem.  If we were being logical, we would look at all of the contributing factors to this latest shooting, starting from the beginning of this guy's life.

  • He was adopted and his father died when he was very young (no father figure).
  • He acted erratically at school and likely had autism (mental issues).
  • He was teased and bullied his whole life (hostile environment at school).
  • He didn't have a lot of friends (no support system).
  • He was expelled from high school (the final straw to confirm he doesn't fit in and there's nothing to help him).

All of these things contributed to the school shooting.  Do a better job of addressing these issues as our young people grow up and we can completely avoid school shootings.  Gun control is not an issue anymore.  I'm not afraid to say that these same students who bullied him his whole life are the ones who contributed to this tragedy. 

We need to do a better job at making every student feel welcome and providing a better support system for young people growing up so that these developing minds don't go off and commit tragedies like this.  We need to pay our teachers more, train them to better understand and address students like this by making school a positive environment, add more support systems for troubled students who don't have support systems, and maybe even implement a zero tolerance bullying policy.

The sooner we realize that we need to start from the beginning, not the end, the sooner we will be able to do finally make a change.

Hmm..gun control works.  There are studies on it. 

and why do gun rights people have problem understanding that we should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time.  You can address those issues and have good gun control!

oh apparently those problems only exist in the United States.  It's like utopia in the rest of the world. 

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 21, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
What’s up with all the graphic imagery suddenly popping up with right leaning posts in all these trump / gun threads ... the quality and loud graphics  suggests copy and pasted from Russian troll farm sites , or lifted from one of those links from drudge :)

Much like the closed minded bigoted sheep talking points that you repeat on a regukar basis.  Try thinking critically.  You may have some eye opening experiences.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 11:54:39 AM
What’s up with all the graphic imagery suddenly popping up with right leaning posts in all these trump / gun threads ... the quality and loud graphics  suggests copy and pasted from Russian troll farm sites , or lifted from one of those links from drudge :)

Much like the closed minded bigoted sheep talking points that you repeat on a regukar basis.  Try thinking critically.  You may have some eye opening experiences.

I like how the person is telling people to "think critically" is the one telling others that their opinions are "closed minded bigoted sheep talking point". 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 21, 2018, 12:14:24 PM
What’s up with all the graphic imagery suddenly popping up with right leaning posts in all these trump / gun threads ... the quality and loud graphics  suggests copy and pasted from Russian troll farm sites , or lifted from one of those links from drudge :)

Much like the closed minded bigoted sheep talking points that you repeat on a regukar basis.  Try thinking critically.  You may have some eye opening experiences.

I like how the person is telling people to "think critically" is the one telling others that their opinions are "closed minded bigoted sheep talking point".

Wow he really got triggered by this ..  I totally forgot this forum was supposed to be a safe space ,

My bad — but please , instead of “sheep” can I be a closed minded bigoted black panther instead ? Way cooler
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 21, 2018, 03:00:18 PM
I like how the person is telling people to "think critically" is the one telling others that their opinions are "closed minded bigoted sheep talking point".
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.

Wow he really got triggered by this ..  I totally forgot this forum was supposed to be a safe space ,

My bad — but please , instead of “sheep” can I be a closed minded bigoted black panther instead ? Way cooler
Safe space?  I don't know.  You are free to keep acting like an asshole, and others are free to keep pointing it out.  You are free to bully others here, and others are free to point it out and call you out.  We all get our say without asking anyone for protection. 

I do challenge you to step back and look at your disgusting behavior.  Do you think you are changing anyone's mind with your choice of words and topics?  No.  Based on your choices, it appears that you are probably just here to insult others and you probably get some joy out of it.

P.S.  Am I triggered?  Yeah, I am.  I think we should all be triggered when some of you get excited that since some kids died you get to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 03:32:20 PM

You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.


The irony remains strong. 

I have linked studies, polls, and arguments regarding why gun control works and should be considered.

In response, I got a naked accusation that I am "close minded", "bigoted", and a "sheep."

Quote

Safe space?  I don't know.  You are free to keep acting like an asshole, and others are free to keep pointing it out.  You are free to bully others here, and others are free to point it out and call you out.  We all get our say without asking anyone for protection. 

I do challenge you to step back and look at your disgusting behavior.  Do you think you are changing anyone's mind with your choice of words and topics?  No.  Based on your choices, it appears that you are probably just here to insult others and you probably get some joy out of it.

P.S.  Am I triggered?  Yeah, I am.  I think we should all be triggered when some of you get excited that since some kids died you get to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Bully?  How did anyone bully anyone else?  I noticed no one but gun rights advocates calling people names and identify opposing opinions as "closed minded bigoted sheep talking points."

It's odd that you think any of us are "excited".   That is most definitely not the emotion that I feel regarding this subject.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 21, 2018, 03:42:09 PM
The irony remains strong. 

I have linked forth studies, polls, and arguments regarding why gun control works and should be considered.

In response, I got a naked accusation that I am "close minded", "bigoted", and a "sheep."
That wasn't the direct response.  My response was that I didn't necessarily disagree.  I did, however, provide a counter-response.  Why are you dishonestly representing that?  You clearly only read what you wanted to read in the response which shows closed mindedness.

Bully?  How did anyone bully anyone else?
 
When you dishonestly side with and encourage the bully, you become part of the problem. 

I noticed no one but gun rights advocates calling people names and identify opposing opinions as "closed minded bigoted sheep talking points."
Who were they?  Are you referring to me?  Am I a gun rights activist? Did you see the post I responded to?  No, because you are proving my point.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 03:47:22 PM
The irony remains strong. 

I have linked forth studies, polls, and arguments regarding why gun control works and should be considered.

In response, I got a naked accusation that I am "close minded", "bigoted", and a "sheep."
That wasn't the direct response.  My response was that I didn't necessarily disagree.  I did, however, provide a counter-response.  Why are you dishonestly representing that?  You clearly only read what you wanted to read in the response which shows closed mindedness.

Bully?  How did anyone bully anyone else?  I noticed no one but gun rights advocates calling people names and identify opposing opinions as "closed minded bigoted sheep talking points."
Who were they?  Are you referring to me?  Am I a gun rights activist? Did you see the post I responded to?  No, because you are proving my point.

You literally wrote this: 

Quote
Much like the closed minded bigoted sheep talking points that you repeat on a regukar basis.  Try thinking critically.  You may have some eye opening experiences.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 21, 2018, 03:49:28 PM
You literally wrote this: 
Initially in direct response to fortune11.  But you are still purposely and dishonestly ignoring all of that.  How are you not part of the problem?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 03:50:57 PM
You literally wrote this: 
Initially in direct response to fortune11.  But you are still purposely and dishonestly ignoring all of that.  How are you not part of the problem?

What does that have to do with anything? 

And then you wrote this to me:

Quote
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 21, 2018, 03:52:36 PM
What does that have to do with anything? 
I'm done.  No point into getting any further into this.  It's futile at this point.  It feels as if you are being deliberately obtuse.

And then you wrote this to me:

Quote
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.
Sure, and you should consider that.  I'll even repeat it again in the future, I bet. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 21, 2018, 03:53:12 PM
And then you wrote this to me:

Quote
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.
Sure, and you should consider that.

And the irony remains strong.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 08:26:47 AM
And then you wrote this to me:

Quote
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.
Sure, and you should consider that.

And the irony remains strong.

Yes , and the irony will get lost .. t’was a reaosnable discussion while it lasted . Now we are in the zone of foaming-at-the-mouth behavior and photoshopped ugliness. 

At least the kids are alright and more upstanding citizens than the generation  in charge right now .. gives you a little more faith in the future !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 08:31:41 AM
And then you wrote this to me:

Quote
You should also try thinking critically.  I'm not basing this on this thread alone, but what I've seen overall.  You think this response is witty, but it's really not.  A key element to critical thinking is being open to consider the various facts, opinions, perspectives, biases and views.
Sure, and you should consider that.

And the irony remains strong.

Yes , and the irony will get lost .. t’was a reaosnable discussion while it lasted . Now we are in the zone of foaming-at-the-mouth behavior and photoshopped ugliness. 

At least the kids are alright and more upstanding citizens than the generation  in charge right now .. gives you a little more faith in the future !

I love this quote from Trevor Noah:

Quote
“Goddamn, these kids are not messing around. Wow!” the host said. “This also just goes to show how upside-down everything becomes when guns are involved. Now, kids are acting like adults and adults are acting like children.”

Noah imagined senators whining, “You’re taking my favorite toys, this is so unfair!” Meanwhile, the students are saying, “You can’t have them if you’re not responsible enough to handle them.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trevor-noah-parkland-students-know-more-than-fox-news-about-guns

Also loved that kid last night on CNN taking Rubio to task on taking NRA money. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 08:48:32 AM
Yes, and all the right wing nutjobs on radio and tv claiming that the kids are bought and paid actors ... 

These are the darkest hours before dawn  ... the kids marching in the streets do make you proud — “stay in your lane “ is not going to work anymore .

Everyone has a right to exercise their first amendment rights , not just the bullies with a loud megaphone and  entrenched in power

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 09:05:17 AM
On the other side:

Quote
LaPierre used his address to the conservative conference CPAC to hit out at anti-gun campaigners, who, led by young survivors of the shooting, have attempted to make political headway in the last week.

“They fantasize about more laws stopping what other laws have failed to stop,” the National Rifle Association executive vice-president said. “So many existing laws were ignored.”

He added: “They don’t care if their laws work or not. They just want to get more laws to get more control over people. But the NRA, the NRA does care.”

LaPierre also hit out at the “breathless national media” which he said was “eager to smear the NRA in the midst of genuine grief”.

Many in the media “love mass shootings,” he said, adding: “Crying white mothers are ratings gold.”

Elites want to “eliminate our firearms freedoms and eradicate all the individual freedoms”, he said. “They hate the NRA, they hate the second amendment, they hate individual freedom.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nra-head-lashes-gun-control-151815781.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 22, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 09:14:16 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 09:35:41 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 09:43:54 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Honestly...I think this generation of adults are probably the most selfish one in a long while.   It's all about my needs and rights...tons of social legislation passed in the 1960s in part because the responsible adults then grew up during Depression and WW2.   Basically since the 80s...the US has done pretty well...results in too much self-interest.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 09:50:26 AM
Exactly, they said that about the Yuppies in the 80's, the 30 something in the 90's and the millennials in the 2000's.  It is the way we are.  And from what I can see generation Z is really no different in its self interest.  Why I always laugh at the "this isn't us"  "this is not who we are" crowd because....it is.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 09:55:21 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Honestly...I think this generation of adults are probably the most selfish one in a long while.   It's all about my needs and rights...tons of social legislation passed in the 1960s in part because the responsible adults then grew up during Depression and WW2.   Basically since the 80s...the US has done pretty well...results in too much self-interest.


The key item is lack of empathy for others , tribalism instinct is very high
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 09:55:59 AM
Exactly, they said that about the Yuppies in the 80's, the 30 something in the 90's and the millennials in the 2000's.  It is the way we are.  And from what I can see generation Z is really no different in its self interest.  Why I always laugh at the "this isn't us"  "this is not who we are" crowd because....it is.

I think they meant that this is what United States/America is...deviation from the norm in the last 20 or 30 years but correction due.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 09:57:26 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Honestly...I think this generation of adults are probably the most selfish one in a long while.   It's all about my needs and rights...tons of social legislation passed in the 1960s in part because the responsible adults then grew up during Depression and WW2.   Basically since the 80s...the US has done pretty well...results in too much self-interest.


The key item is lack of empathy for others , tribalism instinct is very high

Race as well...old white people feeling threatened that their dominant social position is disappearing.   California dealt with the same issues in the 1990s.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 09:59:20 AM
Exactly, they said that about the Yuppies in the 80's, the 30 something in the 90's and the millennials in the 2000's.  It is the way we are.  And from what I can see generation Z is really no different in its self interest.  Why I always laugh at the "this isn't us"  "this is not who we are" crowd because....it is.


Yes but over the decades we are still becoming more progressive socially aren’t we ?   While boomers fall under the spell of evangelical preachers and toxic media , they become more and more detached from the rest of the country ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 10:01:40 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Honestly...I think this generation of adults are probably the most selfish one in a long while.   It's all about my needs and rights...tons of social legislation passed in the 1960s in part because the responsible adults then grew up during Depression and WW2.   Basically since the 80s...the US has done pretty well...results in too much self-interest.


The key item is lack of empathy for others , tribalism instinct is very high

Race as well...old white people feeling threatened that their dominant social position is disappearing.   California dealt with the same issues in the 1990s.

If that is what you really believe then like I said.  You will have to wait for this "selfish" generation to die out.  Nothing will change for now, you will just have to wait.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 10:06:51 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)

Or like in the real world...freedom riders and the Civil Rights movement.   Vietnam War protests.

This was a total layup ...

And also instructive to see how did civil rights and iraq war polled among the “responsible adults “ at the time ... NOT in hindsight

People have a tendency to extrapolate  what they believe now into assuming they were like this back in the past too , classic “recency  bias “

And the great financial crisis was also a legacy of the “responsible adults “ , something that still lingers as it destroyed earning power of millennials compared to other generations . The NPV or net present value of lost opportunities and incomes adds up fast .

While “responsible adults “ are still reaping most of the rewards of the asset price boom (stocks , real estate ) .

Honestly...I think this generation of adults are probably the most selfish one in a long while.   It's all about my needs and rights...tons of social legislation passed in the 1960s in part because the responsible adults then grew up during Depression and WW2.   Basically since the 80s...the US has done pretty well...results in too much self-interest.


The key item is lack of empathy for others , tribalism instinct is very high

Race as well...old white people feeling threatened that their dominant social position is disappearing.   California dealt with the same issues in the 1990s.

If that is what you really believe then like I said.  You will have to wait for this "selfish" generation to die out.  Nothing will change for now, you will just have to wait.

Sort of...a lot of it has to do with the younger generation basically giving up politics after the 1970s...due to Vietnam and Nixon.   We may be seeing a resurgence.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 10:08:05 AM
Exactly, they said that about the Yuppies in the 80's, the 30 something in the 90's and the millennials in the 2000's.  It is the way we are.  And from what I can see generation Z is really no different in its self interest.  Why I always laugh at the "this isn't us"  "this is not who we are" crowd because....it is.


Yes but over the decades we are still becoming more progressive socially aren’t we ?   While boomers fall under the spell of evangelical preachers and toxic media , they become more and more detached from the rest of the country ...

I'm not so sure. If anything, Trump is a reaction  too much movement to the left on social issues.  (PC thought, LBGTYZ, same sex marriage, non gender bathrooms, single parent heroes and so on).  It went too far too fast, this was a predictable push back.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 10:12:07 AM
You may be right but from my little sampling of youth, they are breathtakingly uniformed about politics, and just how our political system works.  Maybe thats changing , I don't know,  but these kids are leading with emotion, not well thought out arguments.  I see the mistakes in the markets that emotion can cause. This is no different.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 22, 2018, 10:21:33 AM
It's as if a YA Dystopian Novel (Hunger Games/The Maze Runner, etc ad nausea) or the plot of Rogue One is playing out. Inexperienced youth being used by the powers that be to overthrow the tyrannical government du jour.  I've seen this movie before, as I'm sure we all have. I don't know about you, but having kids argue policy may sound right, but it lacks the weight of experience and historical context. As a similar protest ready teen myself at one point, I thank God none of my protest solutions of that time were ever made law.

BTW - Ever wonder what the "AR" in "AR-15" stands for?

Wonder no more:

https://www.nssf.org/msr/ (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Armalite was located on 16th Street in Costa Mesa until it closed in the 80s. The AR-15 is just one of many innovative products they designed. The current company using the Armalite name just uses the name and has no relation to the original Armalite. The patent on the AR-15 expired decades ago so every gun maker around the world makes an AR-15 type product. Armalite, like Philco Ford, Rockwell, etc., is just another ghost of OC's legendary industrial/scientific past. Like the AR-15, the ubiquitous Sidewinder (AIM-9) heat seeking missile and its clones are used by every country in the world and was invented right here in OC, specifically at the Philco Ford Electronics company where the One Ford Road neighborhood now stands. Every time I go to the Goat Hill Tavern, I still raise a glass to Armalite.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 22, 2018, 10:56:51 AM
Funny stuff, reading about how 14-17 year olds were instrumental with the Freedom Rider movement, Vietnam protests and the Civil Rights movement.  Um... actually... no. They were college aged protestors which is a significant difference to what's happening today on CNN.

The other, more important distinction: It's unpossible to compare a publically educated 1957 / 1967 vintage 18 year old to a vintage 2017 18 year old with todays public education. Sure, most 18 year olds today know how to post a YouTube video or have some idea what happened in Florida, but ask them to point out Romania on a map, who the Secretary of State is today, or the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and be ready for some pretty amazing blank stares in response. That cannot be said for the children of the 50's and 60's.

In no way am I saying everything should flow back to "them good ol days" of the Eisenhower/Kennedy years - but school shootings have expanded geometrically since April 20th, 1999 due to societal ills, not availability of weapons.  To miss that, is to miss it all. You don't stop mass shootings with "thoughts and prayers", nor do you by banning weapons. Neither address the real issues before us in these situations.

My .02 on this.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 11:13:32 AM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 11:24:26 AM
Funny stuff, reading about how 14-17 year olds were instrumental with the Freedom Rider movement, Vietnam protests and the Civil Rights movement.  Um... actually... no. They were college aged protestors which is a significant difference to what's happening today on CNN.

The other, more important distinction: It's unpossible to compare a publically educated 1957 / 1967 vintage 18 year old to a vintage 2017 18 year old with todays public education. Sure, most 18 year olds today know how to post a YouTube video or have some idea what happened in Florida, but ask them to point out Romania on a map, who the Secretary of State is today, or the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and be ready for some pretty amazing blank stares in response. That cannot be said for the children of the 50's and 60's.

In no way am I saying everything should flow back to "them good ol days" of the Eisenhower/Kennedy years - but school shootings have expanded geometrically since April 20th, 1999 due to societal ills, not availability of weapons.  To miss that, is to miss it all. You don't stop mass shootings with "thoughts and prayers", nor do you by banning weapons. Neither address the real issues before us in these situations.

My .02 on this.

Actually 14 year old are a lot more mature and "world wise" now than  18 year old back in the 1960s.   Most 18 years in 1950s/1960s never left their hometowns whereas kids today are interacting and connected to people and ideas from all over the world since they were small children. 

Also...mass shooting didn't exploded since 1999...they exploded after 2005...after the assault weapons ban expired.  And most of those shooting occurring since 2005 have been done with semi-auto rifles.

Quote
Studies indicate that the rate at which public mass shootings occur has tripled since 2011. Between 1982 and 2011, a mass shooting occurred roughly once every 200 days. However, between 2011 and 2014 that rate has accelerated greatly with at least one mass shooting occurring every 64 days in the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 11:25:23 AM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.

We are apparently supposed to gear gun policy, the structure of schools, teacher's skill, and a bunch of other things around a tiny population of people who really really like their guns.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 22, 2018, 11:42:04 AM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.

And the reason for this is 24/7 news coverage and trending tweets.  Tragedies are the media's wet dream.  The media profits off of the country's losses.  Think about that one.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 22, 2018, 11:45:04 AM
Irvinecommuter... it's already established that there is no such thing as an "Assault Rifle". Even if such a thing existed, that's not what the Florida shooter used. Perhaps you mean a weapon with a high caliber magazine that's modified to shoot as a machine gun - which is an AK47. Not really seeing any AK's being used in that list.

Let's try this another way.

There are more guns than teachers today.

There are too many kids killed by other kids in school shootings.

Yet....There are far more children raped by teachers than there are kids being killed by other kids in school shootings. This is a terrible fact.

Teachers, being fewer in number than guns, statistically represent a much higher risk percentage to school children than guns ever do.

As far as my Google-Fu will take me using only "IUSD teacher accused of" I show in the last 4 years roughly 3 IUSD employees accused of raping children, and yet -0- school shootings on an IUSD campus. Which then is the greater threat at an IUSD campus, a teacher or a gun?

At this point in time, if you haven't already been protesting child rape as loudly as school shootings, there's still time to get involved. Will you work as hard to ban teachers as you do to ban inanimate objects like guns? If not, then don't your actions demonstrate that you quietly support teacher rapists instead of victimized kids?

Actions, as it's been said, speak louder than words.

My .02c


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 11:49:52 AM
Irvinecommuter... it's already established that there is no such thing as an "Assault Rifle". Even if such a thing existed, that's not what the Florida shooter used. Perhaps you mean a weapon with a high caliber magazine that's modified to shoot as a machine gun - which is an AK47. Not really seeing any AK's being used in that list.

Let's try this another way.

There are more guns than teachers today.

There are too many kids killed by other kids in school shootings.

Yet....There are far more children raped by teachers than there are kids being killed by other kids in school shootings. This is a terrible fact.

Teachers, being lower in number than guns, clearly represent a much higher risk percentage to children than guns do.

The raging epidemic of child rape by teachers, just as the lower in number but terrible none the less epidemic of school shootings is caused not by inanimate objects (guns) but by those who use these guns or in the case of raping teachers their place of authority to harm kids.

At this point in time, if you haven't already been protesting child rape as loudly as school shootings, there's still time to get involved. Will you work as hard to ban teachers as you do to ban inanimate objects like guns? If not, then don't your actions demonstrate what you quietly support? Actions, as it's been said, speak louder than words.

My .02c

The assault weapons ban is literally the name of the bill:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Somehow, we seem to be not able to deal with two separate issues at the same time and we also require teachers to be licensed and pass background checks.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 22, 2018, 12:31:21 PM
How can there be a ban on a firearm that our military and police may carry while maintaining our 2nd amendment rights?
The 2nd amendment doesn't exist so we can go hunting.  It exists so that we can defend our property and our rights.

Like I said early on.  If you want constitutional gun control, then you need to repeal or change the 2nd amendment. 

Yes, many judges uphold unconstitutional laws.  That's because our judges would rather help legislate based on their own opinions than do their jobs right. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 12:42:09 PM
How can there be a ban on a firearm that our military and police may carry while maintaining our 2nd amendment rights?
The 2nd amendment doesn't exist so we can go hunting.  It exists so that we can defend our property and our rights.

Like I said early on.  If you want constitutional gun control, then you need to repeal or change the 2nd amendment. 

Yes, many judges uphold unconstitutional laws.  That's because our judges would rather help legislate based on their own opinions than do their jobs right.

Nope...cause you know SC and judges interpret the Constitution.  It's in the Constitution.

Laws that are upheld by Supreme  Court and judges are by definition...constitutional. 

And you know who enacted those laws?  The legislative branch!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 01:17:56 PM
And yes — Responsible adults have no problem trusting the country’s highest office to someone whose qualifications were running beauty pageants and hosting the Apprentice !

But damn , these immature kids :)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 22, 2018, 01:31:55 PM
Nope...cause you know SC and judges interpret the Constitution.  It's in the Constitution.

Laws that are upheld by Supreme  Court and judges are by definition...constitutional. 

And you know who enacted those laws?  The legislative branch!
And a tomato is legally a vegetable because of those sorts of things.  The Supreme Court is often a joke.  The courts are often a joke.  Do you really think every SC ruling has been correct?

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 22, 2018, 01:32:58 PM
I am curious how many Bump Stock mass shooting incidents there have been.  I know of the Las Vegas incident.  Any others?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 22, 2018, 01:36:13 PM
Nope...cause you know SC and judges interpret the Constitution.  It's in the Constitution.

Laws that are upheld by Supreme  Court and judges are by definition...constitutional. 

And you know who enacted those laws?  The legislative branch!
And a tomato is legally a vegetable because of those sorts of things.  The Supreme Court is often a joke.  The courts are often a joke.  Do you really think every SC ruling has been correct?



Careful, you don't what to cross any veggie libel laws...  (also real things)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 01:41:43 PM
Nope...cause you know SC and judges interpret the Constitution.  It's in the Constitution.

Laws that are upheld by Supreme  Court and judges are by definition...constitutional. 

And you know who enacted those laws?  The legislative branch!
And a tomato is legally a vegetable because of those sorts of things.  The Supreme Court is often a joke.  The courts are often a joke.  Do you really think every SC ruling has been correct?

I didn't realize  Nix v. Hedden involved a constitutional issue...please identify constitutional issues in that case for me.

Correct is highly subjective...constitutional is determined by the courts, including the Supreme Court.   

So again...by definition a law is constitutional if the Supreme Court says it is...it's in the Constitution.  While the Supreme Court did affirm an individual person's right to own a gun, it also concluded that the government has the right to regulate such a right, like all constitutional rights.

Courts have repeatedly found that laws prohibiting military style weapons, requiring background checks, imposing waiting periods, limiting magazine sizes, etc. are in fact constitutional. 

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2018/02/economist-explains-14

In fact, the 4th Circuit has held that military style weapons are not even covered by the 2nd Amendment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-otc-guns/second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-assault-weapons-en-banc-4th-circuit-idUSKBN1612PU
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 22, 2018, 02:09:33 PM
Courts have repeatedly found that laws prohibiting military style weapons, requiring background checks, imposing waiting periods, limiting magazine sizes, etc. are in fact constitutional.

Yea, so what is it you want for gun control?

List it out.

I say list it out because I think the majority want the above.  I often find the 'gun control' blanket though has people sliding in 'fixing' the negligence laws (really meaning making manufacturers responsible for illegal use of the guns) and 'requiring' "insurance" or "training courses"  which often sounds more like voter literacy tests of the segregated south than an actual training course and backhanded attempt to make gun ownership financial impossible.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 02:53:14 PM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.

We are apparently supposed to gear gun policy, the structure of schools, teacher's skill, and a bunch of other things around a tiny population of people who really really like their guns.

Not at all. Thankfully, I don’t know anyone who’s child was slaughtered in a school mass shooting. I doubt many do also.  However, I know scores of people who own these types of weapons. I bet many here do. It’s not a tiny population, it’s much more than you think.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.

We are apparently supposed to gear gun policy, the structure of schools, teacher's skill, and a bunch of other things around a tiny population of people who really really like their guns.

Not at all. Thankfully, I don’t know anyone who’s child was slaughtered in a school mass shooting. I doubt many do also.  However, I know scores of people who own these types of weapons. I bet many here do. It’s not a tiny population, it’s much more than you think.

And many of those who own guns are for gun control.  It's the tiny minority of gun owners who support the stances advocated by the NRA and gun makers.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/28/strong-majority-of-americans-nra-members-back-gun-control
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 22, 2018, 04:26:39 PM
This is the only language these people understand — when it starts to hurt them in the pocketbook

BlackRock has questions for gun companies after Florida massacre

By Danielle Wiener-Bronner February 22, 2018: 6:20 PM ET
BlackRock has some questions for gun companies about their response to the school shooting in Florida.
The giant investment management company "will be engaging with weapons manufacturers and distributors to understand their response to recent events," spokesperson Ed Sweeney said in a statement.
BlackRock (BLK) is the largest shareholder in gunmakers Sturm Ruger (RGR) and American Outdoor Brands (AOBC). It is the second-largest shareholder in Vista Outdoor (VSTO).
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 05:37:18 PM
It won’t
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 22, 2018, 05:43:25 PM
This is the only language these people understand — when it starts to hurt them in the pocketbook

BlackRock has questions for gun companies after Florida massacre

By Danielle Wiener-Bronner February 22, 2018: 6:20 PM ET
BlackRock has some questions for gun companies about their response to the school shooting in Florida.
The giant investment management company "will be engaging with weapons manufacturers and distributors to understand their response to recent events," spokesperson Ed Sweeney said in a statement.
BlackRock (BLK) is the largest shareholder in gunmakers Sturm Ruger (RGR) and American Outdoor Brands (AOBC). It is the second-largest shareholder in Vista Outdoor (VSTO).

Yup

Quote
For more than a decade, the First National Bank of Omaha has offered special branded Visa cards to National Rifle Association members to support the group. On Thursday, following two days of public pressure, the bank announced it “will not renew its contract” with the NRA.

The bank confirmed, in a tweet, that “customer feedback caused” the decision

https://thinkprogress.org/first-national-bank-ends-nra-visa-card-5809195f1672/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 22, 2018, 07:04:11 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 22, 2018, 07:56:14 PM
Hypothetical: if you only had a glock would you go after someone with an AR-15

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 22, 2018, 07:56:43 PM
This is the only language these people understand — when it starts to hurt them in the pocketbook

BlackRock has questions for gun companies after Florida massacre

By Danielle Wiener-Bronner February 22, 2018: 6:20 PM ET
BlackRock has some questions for gun companies about their response to the school shooting in Florida.
The giant investment management company "will be engaging with weapons manufacturers and distributors to understand their response to recent events," spokesperson Ed Sweeney said in a statement.
BlackRock (BLK) is the largest shareholder in gunmakers Sturm Ruger (RGR) and American Outdoor Brands (AOBC). It is the second-largest shareholder in Vista Outdoor (VSTO).

Yup

Quote
For more than a decade, the First National Bank of Omaha has offered special branded Visa cards to National Rifle Association members to support the group. On Thursday, following two days of public pressure, the bank announced it “will not renew its contract” with the NRA.

The bank confirmed, in a tweet, that “customer feedback caused” the decision

https://thinkprogress.org/first-national-bank-ends-nra-visa-card-5809195f1672/

First National Bank of Omaha?  Shoot there goes my Costco card, who could stand this pressure? Who will fold next? East Cambria Student Credit Union? There goes my Treasury Swift account with Luxembourg.  Puleeeze!! Nothing will change.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 22, 2018, 08:27:37 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 06:39:44 AM
Seriously , are we financially savvy people now going to pretend the world s largest asset manager taking a stance won’t  matter , even incrementally ?   Reminds me of that giant  bird and the sand and something something ...

This is how all these things turn - bit by bit , till it becomes a cascading effect over a longer period and the tipping point happens ...

And then when it finally happens , we can all claim we knew it all along in hindsight
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 23, 2018, 08:13:44 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on February 23, 2018, 08:18:02 AM
Hypothetical: if you only had a glock would you go after someone with an AR-15

i dont think anyone truly knows until they are put in that situation. 

I bet a lot of people who say they would, actually wouldnt.

Ironically, i usually say that i would probably avoid the situation too, but when these things actually happen, im one of the people diving into danger helping others.  In my case, yeah i probably would go in if i had a glock.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 23, 2018, 09:16:10 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.
The NRA was founded in 1870 by US Army officers in New York City (NYC was apparently not a gun free zone back in 1870) in order to promote civilian marksmanship on behalf of the US government. For the first century of the NRA's existence, it was closely tied with the US government in promoting civilian marksmanship through agencies such as the Defense Department, DCM, Quartermaster General, Springfield Armory, etc. and actually shared many key personnel with said US government agencies.

When gun control began to rear it ugly head in the late 1960's with the rise of the radical left, the NRA organized an Institute for Legislative Action to lobby Congress. The ILA started as a small organization and only grew in direct response to the growth of legislative threats to gun ownership. Unfortunately, the ILA has now overtaken the NRA's original mandate but this is not the NRA's fault, the gun control industry put them in that position.

The elite doesn't care about the NRA. The elite's real target is the half of US households that are gun owners who the elite view as neanderthals and a threat to their world view. Since it is politically problematic to directly attack half the country, the elite attack the NRA as a proxy. That's why the NRA always gets blamed when some tragedy like this happens.


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.
The NRA was founded in 1870 by US Army officers in New York City (NYC was apparently not a gun free zone back in 1870) in order to promote civilian marksmanship on behalf of the US government. For the first century of the NRA's existence, it was closely tied with the US government in promoting civilian marksmanship through agencies such as the Defense Department, DCM, Quartermaster General, Springfield Armory, etc. and actually shared many key personnel with said US government agencies.

When gun control began to rear it ugly head in the late 1960's with the rise of the radical left, the NRA organized an Institute for Legislative Action to lobby Congress. The ILA started as a small organization and only grew in direct response to the growth of legislative threats to gun ownership. Unfortunately, the ILA has now overtaken the NRA's original mandate but this is not the NRA's fault, the gun control industry put them in that position.

The elite doesn't care about the NRA. The elite's real target is the half of US households that are gun owners who the elite view as neanderthals and a threat to their world view. Since it is politically problematic to directly attack half the country, the elite attack the NRA as a proxy. That's why the NRA always gets blamed when some tragedy like this happens.

That’s how it is. Drug companies and doctors issuing prescription are being blamed for the opioid crisis.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 09:50:07 AM
Everything is a crisis -- oh my god ... the .. the .. constitution ..  most of the people hiding behind the constitution have barely even read it

Everything is life is about studying incentives -- except for the suckers who fall for the myths

NRA exists for the NRA - not about anyone else -and they will plumb to great depths to justify never having to look in the mirror 

NRA representative Dana Loesch told the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington, D.C.: “Many in legacy media love mass shootings. You guys love it. … You love the ratings. Crying white mothers are ratings gold.”

In 2000, LaPierre said President Bill Clinton wanted Americans to be killed by guns, to build support for gun control laws.

In 2012, LaPierre blamed the slaughter of 20 little children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut on “gun-free zones” at schools.

These are guys who don't care about you, me or the constitution . They just use it as a convenient shield when they have to. 

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 09:55:31 AM
"who cares, I don't rent a car from them anyways "
"they are too small to matter"
"I get better discounts on enterprise from other sources "

what else am I missing

One of the world's largest rental-car companies is ending a key partnership with the NRA

Enterprise Holdings, one of the world's largest rental-car companies, is ending a key partnership with the National Rifle Association.
The conglomerate, which operates Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Alamo Rent a Car, and National Car Rental, said it ended a discount program available to NRA members, effective March 26.
That follows a move by First National Bank earlier Thursday to end a credit-card promotion with the gun-advocacy group.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 23, 2018, 10:20:52 AM
During the 1999 Columbine high school shooting, the school did in fact have an armed Sheriff's Deputy, Neil Gardner who was armed with .45 cal automatic pistol.  When alerted of the shooting he raced to the school and faced off against Eric Harris, who was armed with Hi Point 9mm carbine.  However, Deputy Neil Gardner had poor eyesight, was not wearing his prescription glasses, and engaged Eric Harris at distance of approx. 60 yards which caused his shots to miss.

We do not know the full reasons why Deputy Scot Peterson opted to take a defensive position instead of going after Nikolas Cruz.  We know Peterson (age 54) qualified for retirement, resigned, and isn't talking.  He is being made the fall guy by both Sheriff's department and Trump administration.  His home is now guarded by 6 Deputies.

I can only say that before we call Peterson a coward, consider the situation where a Deputy with 54 year old eyesight armed with pistol, is opposing an assailant at distance armed with rifle caliber carbine in hallways and classrooms full of students.  I think he should have made more effort, but we need be realistic with our expectations according to the scenario,

In the hypothetical scenario where you're armed with a glock opposing an assailant armed with AR15, would you engage the assailant with your pistol at distance of 60 yards inside a school hallway full of students?  The assailant doesn't care about collateral damage, but what about you?

Hypothetically if the assailant is standing still by himself like a paper target at distance of 20 yards, I'm ~90% confident at blowing his brains out with my 357 MAG.  I don't have that confidence if he is a moving target 60 yards away with bystanders all around.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 10:28:00 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.

They don't stick up for the Constitution..they represent the interests of the gun manufacturers and fear based industries.  BUY YOUR ARMORED BACKPACKS NOW!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 10:28:49 AM
Hypothetical: if you only had a glock would you go after someone with an AR-15

i dont think anyone truly knows until they are put in that situation. 

I bet a lot of people who say they would, actually wouldnt.

Ironically, i usually say that i would probably avoid the situation too, but when these things actually happen, im one of the people diving into danger helping others.  In my case, yeah i probably would go in if i had a glock.


Agree with your there...fight or flight response...some people fight...most people flight.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 10:30:32 AM
During the 1999 Columbine high school shooting, the school did in fact have an armed Sheriff's Deputy, Neil Gardner who was armed with .45 cal automatic pistol.  When alerted of the shooting he raced to the school and faced off against Eric Harris, who was armed with Hi Point 9mm carbine.  However, Deputy Neil Gardner had poor eyesight, was not wearing his prescription glasses, and engaged Eric Harris at distance of approx. 60 yards which caused his shots to miss.

We do not know the full reasons why Deputy Scot Peterson opted to take a defensive position instead of going after Nikolas Cruz.  We know Peterson (age 54) qualified for retirement, resigned, and isn't talking.  He is being made the fall guy by both Sheriff's department and Trump administration.  His home is now guarded by 6 Deputies.

I can only say that before we call Peterson a coward, consider the situation where a Deputy with 54 year old eyesight armed with pistol, is opposing an assailant at distance armed with rifle caliber carbine in hallways and classrooms full of students.  I think he should have made more effort, but we need be realistic with our expectations according to the scenario,

In the hypothetical scenario where you're armed with a glock opposing an assailant armed with AR15, would you engage the assailant with your pistol at distance of 60 yards inside a school hallway full of students?  The assailant doesn't care about collateral damage, but what about you?

Hypothetically if the assailant is standing still by himself like a paper target at distance of 20 yards, I'm ~90% confident at blowing his brains out with my 357 MAG.  I don't have that confidence if he is a moving target 60 yards away with bystanders all around.

Also agree...bringing a pistol to a rifle fight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 10:40:48 AM
Irvinecommuter - I think so. The AR-15 bullet shreds organ according to a doctor in the article below.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-shooting-school-injuries-ar-15-assault-rifle-hospital-treat-radiologist-parkland-victims-a8224681.html%3famp

This is no joke.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 23, 2018, 10:53:55 AM
Also agree...bringing a pistol to a rifle fight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. 

Never underestimate a blade.  An adult male assailant can cover distance of 7 yards and stab you in 1.5 seconds.  Since blades tend to make smaller wound channels, skilled assailants are trained to stab you multiple times to disable you quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 23, 2018, 11:02:14 AM
Seriously , are we financially savvy people now going to pretend the world s largest asset manager taking a stance won’t  matter , even incrementally ?   Reminds me of that giant  bird and the sand and something something ...

This is how all these things turn - bit by bit , till it becomes a cascading effect over a longer period and the tipping point happens ...

And then when it finally happens , we can all claim we knew it all along in hindsight

You really think Blackrock cares?  This is all PR for mass consumption. If the stocks make money, they will own it.  If they don't, they won't. Most have to since those stocks are members of the indexes. Russel 3000 in particular.  All for show, nothing will change.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 11:04:42 AM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 11:12:34 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 11:22:34 AM
During the 1999 Columbine high school shooting, the school did in fact have an armed Sheriff's Deputy, Neil Gardner who was armed with .45 cal automatic pistol.  When alerted of the shooting he raced to the school and faced off against Eric Harris, who was armed with Hi Point 9mm carbine.  However, Deputy Neil Gardner had poor eyesight, was not wearing his prescription glasses, and engaged Eric Harris at distance of approx. 60 yards which caused his shots to miss.

We do not know the full reasons why Deputy Scot Peterson opted to take a defensive position instead of going after Nikolas Cruz.  We know Peterson (age 54) qualified for retirement, resigned, and isn't talking.  He is being made the fall guy by both Sheriff's department and Trump administration.  His home is now guarded by 6 Deputies.

I can only say that before we call Peterson a coward, consider the situation where a Deputy with 54 year old eyesight armed with pistol, is opposing an assailant at distance armed with rifle caliber carbine in hallways and classrooms full of students.  I think he should have made more effort, but we need be realistic with our expectations according to the scenario,

In the hypothetical scenario where you're armed with a glock opposing an assailant armed with AR15, would you engage the assailant with your pistol at distance of 60 yards inside a school hallway full of students?  The assailant doesn't care about collateral damage, but what about you?

Hypothetically if the assailant is standing still by himself like a paper target at distance of 20 yards, I'm ~90% confident at blowing his brains out with my 357 MAG.  I don't have that confidence if he is a moving target 60 yards away with bystanders all around.

Also agree...bringing a pistol to a rifle fight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.


I wholeheartedly disagree. Even the Sheriff disagree (who later suspended him).

The problem is, this man is a SWORN officer, to uphold the law, to serve and to protect, even if it meant putting his life on the line. That was his duty. Otherwise, take off your badge and give the gun to another school administrator who is willing to deputize himself in the name of saving lives.

1) as an officer, this man swore an oath to serve and to protect.  He failed to do so.

2) as an officer assigned to the school's resource, he is specifically trained for these types of scenarios. Otherwise, why was he put there in the first place?

3) he is 57 years old, he is about to retire. This is a cake-walk job to do, compared to running around the streets catching criminals. He got too conditioned to a boring job of just watching kids go to school day in and day out. When it came time to display courage, he froze up. His training (or lack thereof) was not good enough.

4) "Modern active shooter procedures changed after the Columbine High School shooting in 1999 when officers were trained to wait for SWAT officers to respond and take out a threat. The officers in that shooting allowed the suspects to continue their rampage without being challenged."

5) "Officers are now trained to go toward gunfire, even if alone and outgunned, because research has shown the presence of law enforcement can slow down or stop a suspect, potentially bringing the death toll down and preventing future deaths. "


Haha, this cop recently in 2015 filed a complaint against a Sheriff who wanted to dissolve his position.

"He was writing to complain that Williams wanted to dissolve the Resident On Campus Security (ROCS) Program at Atlantic Technical College, which, he wrote, would have eliminated one of his two jobs patrolling campuses, as he was also working at Stoneman Douglas High School.

“I submit to the School Board members that despite Chief Williams failure to supervise the ROCS program, we still everyday protect our kids and school campuses," he said in the email.


So this cop REALLY wanted to keep his job because he even said it was necessary to "protect our kids" yet when his calling came, he FAILED to do exactly what he was preaching. Definition of coward right there. Fighting for a cause politically but when it came time to act, he was just a faux cop.

I agree that he didn't do his job...I am just talking about human nature.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 11:22:53 AM
If I was the parent and my daughter were in that building and I saw that cop huddling around, I would tell that cop:

1) Give me your BADGE (so I don't get killed by other cops later)

2) And give me your gun. I'm going in to save MY kids.

3) Even though I understand they are NOT your kids but they are MY kids.

Uh yeah. The fact is our public schools are turning into a school in a third world country. (Anything goes)

It’s really sad and sick.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 23, 2018, 11:27:47 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.

They don't stick up for the Constitution..they represent the interests of the gun manufacturers and fear based industries.  BUY YOUR ARMORED BACKPACKS NOW!
Wrong. NRA represents its members.

Gun manufacturers are represented by:
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI)  www.saami.org
The National Shooting Sports Foundation www.nssf.org
The National Sporting Goods Association www.nsga.org

Do you actually know anything about guns?

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 11:38:44 AM
Funny how the NRA is taking so much heat for something that they had no part of.  What do they do?  They stick up for the constitution.  Apparently, that is evil.

They don't stick up for the Constitution..they represent the interests of the gun manufacturers and fear based industries.  BUY YOUR ARMORED BACKPACKS NOW!
Wrong. NRA represents its members.

Gun manufacturers are represented by:
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI)  www.saami.org
The National Shooting Sports Foundation www.nssf.org
The National Sporting Goods Association www.nsga.org

Do you actually know anything about guns?

No...they absolute don't represent their members with respect to many issues...including gun control.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 23, 2018, 11:43:09 AM
Our existing gun control laws would have prevented this tragedy, had law enforcement done its job.

Quote
ALL THE WARNINGS ABOUT NIKOLAS CRUZ

Nikolas Cruz’s dangerous and disturbing behavior was flagged repeatedly to authorities, both local and federal, over a span of two years starting in February 2016. But no one stopped him before he killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland. Here’s a time line of incidents where Cruz was reported to law enforcement. Many of the incidents involve the threat of a school shooting.

▪ Feb. 5, 2016: A Broward Sheriff’s Office deputy is told by an anonymous caller that Nikolas Cruz, then 17, had threatened on Instagram to shoot up his school and posted a photo of himself with guns. The information is forwarded to BSO Deputy Scot Peterson, a school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

▪ Sept. 23, 2016: A “peer counselor” reports to Peterson that Cruz had possibly ingested gasoline in a suicide attempt, was cutting himself and wanted to buy a gun. A mental health counselor advises against involuntarily committing Cruz. The high school says it will conduct a threat assessment.

▪ Sept. 28, 2016: An investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families rules Cruz is stable, despite “fresh cuts” on his arms. His mother, Lynda Cruz, says in the past he wrote “hate signs” on his book bag and had recently talked of buying firearms.

▪ Sept. 24, 2017: A YouTube user named “nikolas cruz” posts a comment stating he wants to become a “professional school shooter.” The comment is reported to the FBI in Mississippi, which fails to make the connection to Cruz in South Florida.

▪ Nov. 1, 2017: Katherine Blaine, Lynda Cruz’s cousin, calls BSO to report that Nikolas Cruz had weapons and asks that police recover them. A “close family friend” agrees to take the firearms, according to BSO.

▪ Nov. 29, 2017: The Palm Beach County family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother calls the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. A member of the family says that Cruz had threatened to “get his gun and come back” and that he has “put the gun to others’ heads in the past.” The family does not want him arrested once he calms down.

▪ Nov. 30, 2017: A caller from Massachusetts calls BSO to report that Cruz is collecting guns and knives and could be a “school shooter in the making.” A BSO deputy advises the caller to contact the Palm Beach sheriff.

▪ Jan. 5, 2018: A caller to the FBI’s tip line reports that Cruz has “a desire to kill people” and could potentially conduct a school shooting. The information is never passed on to the FBI’s office in Miami.

▪ Feb. 14, 2018: Nikolas Cruz attacks Stoneman Douglas High. Peterson, the school’s resource officer, draws his gun outside the building where Cruz is shooting students and staff. He does not enter.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 11:48:59 AM
It all depends. During the Vegas shooting the swat team took out that guy. It wasn’t robocop/Rambo that went to the hotel room.



Our existing gun control laws would have prevented this tragedy, had law enforcement done its job.

Quote
ALL THE WARNINGS ABOUT NIKOLAS CRUZ

Nikolas Cruz’s dangerous and disturbing behavior was flagged repeatedly to authorities, both local and federal, over a span of two years starting in February 2016. But no one stopped him before he killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland. Here’s a time line of incidents where Cruz was reported to law enforcement. Many of the incidents involve the threat of a school shooting.

▪ Feb. 5, 2016: A Broward Sheriff’s Office deputy is told by an anonymous caller that Nikolas Cruz, then 17, had threatened on Instagram to shoot up his school and posted a photo of himself with guns. The information is forwarded to BSO Deputy Scot Peterson, a school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

▪ Sept. 23, 2016: A “peer counselor” reports to Peterson that Cruz had possibly ingested gasoline in a suicide attempt, was cutting himself and wanted to buy a gun. A mental health counselor advises against involuntarily committing Cruz. The high school says it will conduct a threat assessment.

▪ Sept. 28, 2016: An investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families rules Cruz is stable, despite “fresh cuts” on his arms. His mother, Lynda Cruz, says in the past he wrote “hate signs” on his book bag and had recently talked of buying firearms.

▪ Sept. 24, 2017: A YouTube user named “nikolas cruz” posts a comment stating he wants to become a “professional school shooter.” The comment is reported to the FBI in Mississippi, which fails to make the connection to Cruz in South Florida.

▪ Nov. 1, 2017: Katherine Blaine, Lynda Cruz’s cousin, calls BSO to report that Nikolas Cruz had weapons and asks that police recover them. A “close family friend” agrees to take the firearms, according to BSO.

▪ Nov. 29, 2017: The Palm Beach County family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother calls the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. A member of the family says that Cruz had threatened to “get his gun and come back” and that he has “put the gun to others’ heads in the past.” The family does not want him arrested once he calms down.

▪ Nov. 30, 2017: A caller from Massachusetts calls BSO to report that Cruz is collecting guns and knives and could be a “school shooter in the making.” A BSO deputy advises the caller to contact the Palm Beach sheriff.

▪ Jan. 5, 2018: A caller to the FBI’s tip line reports that Cruz has “a desire to kill people” and could potentially conduct a school shooting. The information is never passed on to the FBI’s office in Miami.

▪ Feb. 14, 2018: Nikolas Cruz attacks Stoneman Douglas High. Peterson, the school’s resource officer, draws his gun outside the building where Cruz is shooting students and staff. He does not enter.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 11:55:06 AM
Swat teams are sent in for a reason.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 23, 2018, 11:59:40 AM
If I was the parent and my daughter were in that building and I saw that cop huddling around, I would tell that cop:

1) Give me your BADGE (so I don't get killed by other cops later)

2) And give me your gun. I'm going in to save MY kids.

3) Even though I understand they are NOT your kids but they are MY kids.

But that's not the scenario you were presented.

Obviously if it's our own kids we would do anything... even if we didn't have a gun... we would attempt to tackle that guy and just hope he misses.

I just don't think we can fairly assess the situation without being there ourselves, did he do his job... probably not... was he scared for his own life and also his family who would suffer if he would die... yes. I just don't think you can judge him that easily.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 23, 2018, 12:10:52 PM
It all depends. During the Vegas shooting the swat team took out that guy. It wasn’t robocop/Rambo that went to the hotel room.

That's not correct.  A security guard was first to locate Paddock and was shot, but radioed the location to hotel security/police.  By the time SWAT arrived, Paddock had already killed himself.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 12:13:41 PM
It all depends. During the Vegas shooting the swat team took out that guy. It wasn’t robocop/Rambo that went to the hotel room.

That's not correct.  A security guard was first to locate Paddock and was shot, but radioed the location to hotel security/police.  By the time SWAT arrived, Paddock had already killed himself.

I’m not disputing the security guard.
But the SWAT team with tactical training breached the room.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 23, 2018, 12:16:48 PM
Giving teachers guns is risky, especially if your kid has behavioral problems. Your kid might just push that armed teacher's button one too many times. A less risky solution can be to give teachers Tasers. A properly employed Taser can drop someone nearly instantly and does no permanent damage.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 12:28:10 PM
Giving teachers guns is risky, especially if your kid has behavioral problems. Your kid might just push that armed teacher's button one too many times. A less risky solution can be to give teachers Tasers. A properly employed Taser can drop someone nearly instantly and does no permanent damage.

We should have those roof mounted machine guns like in Altered Carbon.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 23, 2018, 12:51:50 PM
Clearly the officer was a racist.  If it had been white kids getting shot up in there, he would have rushed right in.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 01:51:21 PM
Seriously , are we financially savvy people now going to pretend the world s largest asset manager taking a stance won’t  matter , even incrementally ?   Reminds me of that giant  bird and the sand and something something ...

This is how all these things turn - bit by bit , till it becomes a cascading effect over a longer period and the tipping point happens ...

And then when it finally happens , we can all claim we knew it all along in hindsight

You really think Blackrock cares?  This is all PR for mass consumption. If the stocks make money, they will own it.  If they don't, they won't. Most have to since those stocks are members of the indexes. Russel 3000 in particular.  All for show, nothing will change.

Again — study the incentives

BlackRock doesn’t have to care , but their actions matter and are a green light signal for others to jump on as well.  Do you remember how virtue signaling by corporations turned the tide on gay rights ?

And by the same logic people who get all teary eyed for the NRA should also consider whether they really care about them or the constitution .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 01:58:36 PM
This man should not have been a cop. This man should've just been a security guard. A cop is someone who has enough courage, to put himself on the line, to save KIDS. This man only became a cop for the big fat pension and oh no, he was not about to jeopardize that retirement was he.

The fact that he took the job of being assigned a security officer for the school meant that he accepted responsibility and duty to protect those kids at all costs, otherwise, there would have been other officers willing to do so. But he took that opportunity away from a capable and more competent heroic cop. Yes, we were not there to judge him, but I am not JUDGING him as a white male human being. I am judging him as a sworn officer with a badge and gun.

I don’t pretend to know how cops think , but seeing their general behavior lately , which is being captured for the first time in generations thanks to smartphones , not an insignificant portion of them are in it for the fat pensions and many of them would rather pick on and harrass people less than their size and those who can’t hit back

This is nothing to say about Irvine PD who are among the best professionals out there .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 02:47:14 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 02:58:54 PM
Yes , Looks like it boils down to we need SEAL TEAM 6 available and ready for schools !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 03:03:35 PM
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Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 03:06:29 PM
An example of how right wing hot heads are getting worked up over these kids . Tells me they have really hit a nerve .
Funny thing is if it really about the language and tone, you could replace “teens” with “trump”  :)  the irony ..

Laura ingraham — HOW TEENS SPEAK TO AND ABT ADULTS: “We shd change the names of AR-15s to ‘Marco Rubio’ bc they are so easy to buy,” Stoneman Douglas sophomore Sarah Chadwick tweeted.



Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 03:09:53 PM
Yes , Looks like it boils down to we need SEAL TEAM 6 available and ready for schools !

Modern society is evolving and so do many job requirements in the world. That means employers are constantly asking for new job skills. Why should it be any different for School Resource Officers?  The school district needs to demand as an employer and the state and federal government needs to back it with funding and reimbursement for these training and skills.

A school resource officer should attend LIVE fire exercises at least once per 3 months.  Why? Because it is CRUCIAL that these cops are CONDITIONED to be ready for battle in the heat of the moment when he hears rapid fire gun shots, and NOT coward into a corner. Duty first, then we talk about retirement benefits. Not the other way around.

This is why arming the teachers was the dumbest idea I have ever seen anyone propose on this topic , ever .

The attributes required in this stone cold killer of all evil and those required in a school teacher are mutually exclusive
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 03:15:12 PM
Yes , Looks like it boils down to we need SEAL TEAM 6 available and ready for schools !

Modern society is evolving and so do many job requirements in the world. That means employers are constantly asking for new job skills. Why should it be any different for School Resource Officers?  The school district needs to demand as an employer and the state and federal government needs to back it with funding and reimbursement for these training and skills.

A school resource officer should attend LIVE fire exercises at least once per 3 months.  Why? Because it is CRUCIAL that these cops are CONDITIONED to be ready for battle in the heat of the moment when he hears rapid fire gun shots, and NOT coward into a corner. Duty first, then we talk about retirement benefits. Not the other way around.

Did you know not every cop is qualified to be on the SWAT team?

Let me give you a scenario:
Do you expect a cop that strictly does traffic/accident investigation and has no other training should be sent to the Las Vegas hotel to subdue the shooter?

If we were in a small town with only 1 to 2 cops. I would say that cop needs to do everything.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 03:56:17 PM
Quote
When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 23, 2018, 03:57:48 PM
The number of deputies that failed to enter the school rises from one to four:

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school
Quote
When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 04:00:04 PM
Clearly...it doesn't matter:

Quote
First National Bank of Omaha: The largest privately held bank announced to stop issuing the NRA Visa Card due to “customer feedback” on Thursday.

-Hertz (HTZ): The major rental-car company says on Friday it has “notified the NRA that we are ending the NRA’s rental car discount program with Hertz”

–Enterprise: Its three car rental brands— Enterprise, National and Alamo will end a discount program for NRA members.

–Symantec (SYMC): The publicly-traded security software company said on Twitter it will no longer offer discounts to NRA members. LifeLock, the identity theft protection company acquired by Symantec last year has also stopped its discount program.

-Chubb (CB): The insurance giant told Yahoo Finance it will no longer offer the NRA insurance program for gun owners, a decision it has made three months ago.

-Best Western: According to a 2016 brochure from the NRA, the hotel chain has provided special deals to NRA members. But it clarified on Twitter repeatedly that the company “does not have an affiliation with and is not a corporate partner of the National Rifle Association.”

-Wyndham Hotels: The hotel chain, which previously offered a 10% discount to NRA members, said on Twitter it is no longer affiliated with the NRA.

-Avis Budget Group (CAR): The parent company of several car rental brands including Avis Car Rental and Zipcar, will no longer provide the NRA member discount, effective March 26, the company confirmed in an email to Yahoo Finance.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/companies-cutting-ties-nra-220220623.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:08:25 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 23, 2018, 04:13:02 PM
You don’t know the protocol. There is no use of talking about it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:17:43 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 04:19:28 PM
Ooh. The story just keeps getting better and better. Where are the liberals now? Talk about "inaction"?  There's your inaction.

What's the point of cops if they aren't going to save lives. Who are they they waiting for? SWAT? By the time SWAT comes, it's already over.

Maybe cops should have extra heavy-duty bullet proof gear, helmet, and M4 carbines in the trunk of their police cruiser. Oh wait, they still don't have the courage to go in...

Finally, the liberal media in Florida is putting this new revelation to light. Why hasn't fakeNews CNN gone beserk on this?


Hmmm..but we should assume that armed teachers with minimal training will step in?     
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:21:04 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:26:26 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 23, 2018, 04:28:25 PM
"Some experts noted that police departments have differing policies on how many officers are needed before confronting an active shooter, and the Broward sheriff’s office refused to release their policy on Friday. Some departments do not permit an officer to approach alone. But Israel’s comments indicated he felt that Peterson didn’t follow department protocol."


Exactly. So Florida's police department doesn't want to release their policy. Yet, the Sheriff has already admitted that the SRO should have gone in. Oh and by the way, he's suspended him. BUT... that SRO instead, retired. Wait, why did you suspend him then?

It doesn't take two monkey brains to figure out that the SRO did not follow policy.

Except now 3 other deputies may not have gone in either.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:30:16 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 23, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
It TOOK MONTHS for the Utah Police Detective to be FIRED after beating up that Nurse. That investigation took a long ass time which they finally admit and concluded he violated departmental policy. Yet, it took only a couple days for all these Florida cops to be quickly disciplined? Gotta tie up loose ends, ya know what I'm saying?

Uh, he didn't beat her up.  He arrested her for not following his unlawful orders.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 04:58:26 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 23, 2018, 05:04:42 PM
You can't expect someone else to play hero when your life is in danger. A cop is under no legal obligation to risk his own well being for you.

Remember the LA Riots when the LAPD abandoned the law abiding citizens to the rioters? Remember watching helicopter news footage of citizens being assaulted by rioters and wondering where the LAPD were? I know a LA County Sheriff deputy who was watching the LA Riots on the TV news and saw rioters shooting at fire fighters trying to contain the fires. This deputy was so outraged the LAPD was not doing anything he took his own personal rifle and went to the Riot area himself (without official authorization and putting his career in jeopardy) to try to protect the fire fighters risking their lives to save the city.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 05:36:28 PM
That Utah cop would have never been disciplined were it not for the cellphone video of him being a complete jerk and bully

Smartphones are what bad and dirty cops should be more afraid of , rather than firearms
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 23, 2018, 05:42:29 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 23, 2018, 07:29:33 PM
Good summary ... I guess now we know which traitor companies hate the constitution , eh ?

As usual denial , denial , denial first .. and then lo and behold — everyone flips to — hey , we knew it all along , nothing to see here  ,move on

I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks





Clearly...it doesn't matter:

Quote
First National Bank of Omaha: The largest privately held bank announced to stop issuing the NRA Visa Card due to “customer feedback” on Thursday.

-Hertz (HTZ): The major rental-car company says on Friday it has “notified the NRA that we are ending the NRA’s rental car discount program with Hertz”

–Enterprise: Its three car rental brands— Enterprise, National and Alamo will end a discount program for NRA members.

–Symantec (SYMC): The publicly-traded security software company said on Twitter it will no longer offer discounts to NRA members. LifeLock, the identity theft protection company acquired by Symantec last year has also stopped its discount program.

-Chubb (CB): The insurance giant told Yahoo Finance it will no longer offer the NRA insurance program for gun owners, a decision it has made three months ago.

-Best Western: According to a 2016 brochure from the NRA, the hotel chain has provided special deals to NRA members. But it clarified on Twitter repeatedly that the company “does not have an affiliation with and is not a corporate partner of the National Rifle Association.”

-Wyndham Hotels: The hotel chain, which previously offered a 10% discount to NRA members, said on Twitter it is no longer affiliated with the NRA.

-Avis Budget Group (CAR): The parent company of several car rental brands including Avis Car Rental and Zipcar, will no longer provide the NRA member discount, effective March 26, the company confirmed in an email to Yahoo Finance.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/companies-cutting-ties-nra-220220623.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 24, 2018, 09:47:37 PM

A really good , in depth article written by a doctor based on his recent firsthand experience .


What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns


They weren’t the first victims of a mass shooting the Florida radiologist had seen—but their wounds were radically different

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true


With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

If politicians want to back comprehensive mental-health reform, I am all for it. As a medical doctor, I’ve witnessed firsthand the toll that mental-health issues take on families and the individuals themselves who have no access to satisfactory long-term mental-health care. But the president and Congress should not use this issue as an excuse to deliberately overlook the fact that the use of AR-15 rifles is the common denominator in many mass shootings.

A medical professor taught me about the dangers of drawing incorrect conclusions from data with the example of gum chewing, smokers, and lung cancer. He said smokers may be more likely to chew gum to cover bad breath, but that one cannot look at the data and decide that gum chewing causes lung cancer. It is the same type of erroneous logic that focuses on mental health after mass shootings, when banning the sale of semi-automatic rifles would be a far more effective means of preventing them.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994 included language which prohibited semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15, and also large-capacity magazines with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds. The ban was allowed to expire after 10 years on September 13, 2004. The mass murders that followed the ban’s lapse make clear that it must be reinstated.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 24, 2018, 11:45:26 PM
There is a company that sells backpack body armor. Hmm
(I don’t know the legality of this. Would a school district administrator flip out? Possibly)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 25, 2018, 07:39:30 AM
The Doctors story, while emotional, does not address the fact that medical error/malpractice  are the 3rd highest cause of death in the U.S. It can be argued that this Doctor is potentially more ife-threatening than a rifle is. As well the highest school shooting  kill count was at Virginia Tech, accomplished by hand guns and not rifles. A 6 shot revolver is a "semi automatic weapon" and if used along with speed loads is as efficient as an AR-15 only with more deadly bullet options. No doubt, guns in the wrong hands are very dangerous, but was that the problem in Florida?

There is precious little rationality to the "No one should have an AR-15 " argument due to its basis in misdirected fear. This shooter - and many others like him - could have been stopped by family, local law enforcement, and national agencies but wasn't.  Blame now needs to be placed on the living, not inanimate objects nor the law abiding  owners of these guns. Fix these issues first as a long term solution. In the short run, a ban may feel good, but if you believe a ban will stop killers from obtaining the weapons they want, I have a bridge in New York to sell you.

Also, don't take one post as a summary of everything I believe about 2A Rights. I support a 10 day waiting period on all weapon purchases. I support a 21 year old age limit on ownership (but not on use) . I support the taking of firearms from convicted domestic abuse perpetrators. I hope the law will change to require the surrender of all guns by anyone prescribed any mood altering pharma, as well as other gun laws that could have a direct impact, other than a feel good band aid blanket ban targeting law abiding and unimpared owners.

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 07:59:12 AM
The Doctors story, while emotional, does not address the fact that medical error/malpractice  are the 3rd highest cause of death in the U.S. It can be argued that this Doctor is potentially more ife-threatening than a rifle is. As well the highest school shooting  kill count was at Virginia Tech, accomplished by hand guns and not rifles. A 6 shot revolver is a "semi automatic weapon" and if used along with speed loads is as efficient as an AR-15 only with more deadly bullet options. No doubt, guns in the wrong hands are very dangerous, but was that the problem in Florida?

There is precious little rationality to the "No one should have an AR-15 " argument due to its basis in misdirected fear. This shooter - and many others like him - could have been stopped by family, local law enforcement, and national agencies but wasn't.  Blame now needs to be placed on the living, not inanimate objects nor the law abiding  owners of these guns. Fix these issues first as a long term solution. In the short run, a ban may feel good, but if you believe a ban will stop killers from obtaining the weapons they want, I have a bridge in New York to sell you.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.
Either change the law or put a police at every school like a jewelry store or bank. If the cost is too high for a police, make sure the security guard is armed.

Another idea is to have the national guard in front of the school. It may sound funny, but this might be the only solution.

Include mandatory metal detectors at all high schools.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 08:06:30 AM
Since we are taking about schools.

Drugs is a problem also. They should increase the budget to have more searches.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 08:07:52 AM
If nothing is done to fix the problem. Then you should consider sending your child to private school.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 09:21:25 AM
In my opinion: According to varies news articles. The US school system is behind compared to the other advanced countries. Teachers should focus on teaching and not security patrol at schools.

It’s like a doctor doing security patrol at a hospital. It doesn’t make sense.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 25, 2018, 10:08:40 AM

A really good , in depth article written by a doctor based on his recent firsthand experience .


What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns


They weren’t the first victims of a mass shooting the Florida radiologist had seen—but their wounds were radically different

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true


With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

If politicians want to back comprehensive mental-health reform, I am all for it. As a medical doctor, I’ve witnessed firsthand the toll that mental-health issues take on families and the individuals themselves who have no access to satisfactory long-term mental-health care. But the president and Congress should not use this issue as an excuse to deliberately overlook the fact that the use of AR-15 rifles is the common denominator in many mass shootings.

A medical professor taught me about the dangers of drawing incorrect conclusions from data with the example of gum chewing, smokers, and lung cancer. He said smokers may be more likely to chew gum to cover bad breath, but that one cannot look at the data and decide that gum chewing causes lung cancer. It is the same type of erroneous logic that focuses on mental health after mass shootings, when banning the sale of semi-automatic rifles would be a far more effective means of preventing them.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994 included language which prohibited semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15, and also large-capacity magazines with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds. The ban was allowed to expire after 10 years on September 13, 2004. The mass murders that followed the ban’s lapse make clear that it must be reinstated.
What a load of shit. Typical Atlantic nonsense. Damage is done by the bullet, not the gun. By far the most commonly used ammo for AR-15 type weapons is .223 ball ammo because that is the most reliable type for a semi auto. Being full metal jacket, ball ammo is less destructive that soft points or hollow points, the two most common types of handgun ammo. Notice this "doctor" compares an AR-15 to some generic handgun. Is he talking about a Walther PPK or a Desert Eagle? Give me a break.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 25, 2018, 10:18:42 AM
Who wrote the article should have no bearing on an objective response . 

And the doctor is specifically talking about the bullet  if you actually read the whole article --

"Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading."

"I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange."
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 25, 2018, 10:21:37 AM
Who wrote the article should have no bearing on an objective response . 

And the doctor is specifically talking about the bullet  if you actually read the whole article --

"Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading."

"I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange."
The doctor does not specify what handgun he is comparing the AR-15 to so his comparison is utterly meaningless.
The .223 Rem., the ammo the AR-15 shoots, at about 2800 to 3100 fps, is the velocity of most rifles. So this doc wants to ban hunting rifles too?

Ask a knowledgeable person would they rather be shot with a AR-15 or a Smith & Wesson 686.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 25, 2018, 10:24:56 AM
Who wrote the article should have no bearing on an objective response . 

And the doctor is specifically talking about the bullet  if you actually read the whole article --

"Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading."

"I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange."
The doctor does not specify what handgun he is comparing the AR-15 to so his comparison is utterly meaningless.
The .223 Rem., the ammo the AR-15 shoots, at about 2800 to 3100 fps, is the velocity of most rifles. So this doc wants to ban hunting rifles too?

Hunting rifles are not the weapon of choice for mass murderers and don't fire at the same (fast) rate.  We can and should be able to distinguish between various shades of grey , not just black and white .  We do it all the time in other areas of our lives . 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 25, 2018, 10:54:28 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 11:10:44 AM
Belly or others are not addressing the issue. Why is more dangerous for kids to go to the US than kids going to school in a third world country?
 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 25, 2018, 11:16:55 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 25, 2018, 11:37:12 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 25, 2018, 11:40:13 AM
Belly or others are not addressing the issue. Why is more dangerous for kids to go to the US than kids going to school in a third world country?

Because each of our tragedies and misgivings are televised 24/7, while third world countries are lucky to have working bathrooms.  It's the perception of danger.

Don't get me wrong, the tragedies are still bad when they happen in the US, but the fact that one that happens two weeks ago is on the news every day after it happen is a constant "in your face" cue to be in fear.  On top of that, the media gives school shooters exactly what they want, their day in the sun.  Hence the copycat threats immediately following. 

The 24/7 news can talk about sex trafficking and suicide bombings that are going on every day in third world countries, but it doesn't hit home hard enough and provide the fear -> eyeballs that they need to make a profit.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 25, 2018, 12:36:00 PM
Belly or others are not addressing the issue. Why is more dangerous for kids to go to the US than kids going to school in a third world country?
 

School should just hire a private security team, a.k.a. Blackwater ('Lite'). Former retired navy seal, former Army Green Beret, former Iraqi/Afghanistan Army soldier. 

Don't agree with me?

Sean Hannity on Fox News says the same thing @ 10:26 : "Start by hiring trained armed former military veterans (and police officers)"  my vote is more for the retired military as opposed to cops. Cops are pussies these days when they hear 5.56 rounds going off. Military vets who have served are more inclined to engage an enemy. They have been in that situation overseas before and hear more than just 5.56, they hear IEDs, mortars, rockets, and shellfire missiles and MOAB (mother of all bombs) being dropped.

A LOT of cops go through their career without having fired a single gun shot or killed someone. You think that is a suitable candidate for putting them in a school as a school resource officer?  Hell nah!

We don't need a cop in school. We need a "BE ALL YOU CAN BE" army staff sergeant.

 

Careful with talking about Hannity, he’s like the Antichrist to some people around here  ;)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 25, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
Belly or others are not addressing the issue. Why is more dangerous for kids to go to the US than kids going to school in a third world country?

Because each of our tragedies and misgivings are televised 24/7, while third world countries are lucky to have working bathrooms.  It's the perception of danger.

Don't get me wrong, the tragedies are still bad when they happen in the US, but the fact that one that happens two weeks ago is on the news every day after it happen is a constant "in your face" cue to be in fear.  On top of that, the media gives school shooters exactly what they want, their day in the sun.  Hence the copycat threats immediately following. 

The 24/7 news can talk about sex trafficking and suicide bombings that are going on every day in third world countries, but it doesn't hit home hard enough and provide the fear -> eyeballs that they need to make a profit.

Here we go with the blame the media.
At least Belly came up with a potential idea to stop it.
(FYI - I also gave my recommendations in my previous post)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 25, 2018, 03:09:31 PM
The fastest way to enact real protection?

President Tourette Syndrome needs to push to Congress (where law is made, duh) a requirement that any education system that accepts federal aid of any kind must provided armed security for any school at a 250 student to 1 guard ratio. There's have to be some exemptions for schools in rural areas of course.

Know any educator or school system that will refuse federal funding? If so, well, good luck with that. Parents would rise up faster on this issue against school board managers than on any 2A initiatives. "But... but.. .there's no money..." That's not true, and even if it was, perhaps a .001 property tax bond would do the trick. We'll all be amazed at how fast "gun free zones" suddenly become "protected student zones" overnight.

I'll take a credible deterrent over an unenforceable ban any day.

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on February 25, 2018, 03:31:15 PM
Belly or others are not addressing the issue. Why is more dangerous for kids to go to the US than kids going to school in a third world country?

Because each of our tragedies and misgivings are televised 24/7, while third world countries are lucky to have working bathrooms.  It's the perception of danger.

Don't get me wrong, the tragedies are still bad when they happen in the US, but the fact that one that happens two weeks ago is on the news every day after it happen is a constant "in your face" cue to be in fear.  On top of that, the media gives school shooters exactly what they want, their day in the sun.  Hence the copycat threats immediately following. 

The 24/7 news can talk about sex trafficking and suicide bombings that are going on every day in third world countries, but it doesn't hit home hard enough and provide the fear -> eyeballs that they need to make a profit.

Here we go with the blame the media.
At least Belly came up with a potential idea to stop it.
(FYI - I also gave my recommendations in my previous post)

I've shared my thoughts on what the country needs to do in this thread already.  The media is just one part of the problem.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 25, 2018, 03:41:29 PM
Public schools don’t have money for supplies and now we are going to make them pay for military grade defense. 

Maybe these second amendment loving congressmen should start by allowing assault weapons inside government buildings

This is one area where we are just plain wrong by being out of sync with rest of the developed world . Aren’t we already drowning in a culture of aggression to begin with . Gasbags like hannity are part of the problem .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 25, 2018, 03:54:45 PM

Why does nothing surprise anymore

Florida school shooting survivor's mother says her family has received death threats

https://www.ajc.com/news/national/florida-school-shooting-survivor-mother-says-her-family-has-received-death-threats/il1m3s8xojmmcWiBybajAJ/amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on February 26, 2018, 01:03:16 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Loco_local on February 26, 2018, 09:16:24 AM
Quote
School should just hire a private security team, a.k.a. Blackwater ('Lite'). Former retired navy seal, former Army Green Beret, former Iraqi/Afghanistan Army soldier. 

If you watch the movie/read the book The Whistleblower about ex-Army private security forces you will not want them anywhere near your teenage daughters.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 26, 2018, 09:18:47 AM
"74 out of Florida’s 76 state House representatives accused Israel of failing to take significant action to prevent the Feb. 14 massacre..."

Wow, looks like the GOP wants to can the Sheriff and charge him with dereliction of duty for failure to act on all the warning signs.  Every day, we keep learning more and more of the bizarre nature of "who didn't do what?"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-house-republicans-demand-sheriff-205217924.html

It's easier than actually legislating and doing their jobs.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 26, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
The fastest way to enact real protection?

President Tourette Syndrome needs to push to Congress (where law is made, duh) a requirement that any education system that accepts federal aid of any kind must provided armed security for any school at a 250 student to 1 guard ratio. There's have to be some exemptions for schools in rural areas of course.

Know any educator or school system that will refuse federal funding? If so, well, good luck with that. Parents would rise up faster on this issue against school board managers than on any 2A initiatives. "But... but.. .there's no money..." That's not true, and even if it was, perhaps a .001 property tax bond would do the trick. We'll all be amazed at how fast "gun free zones" suddenly become "protected student zones" overnight.

I'll take a credible deterrent over an unenforceable ban any day.

My .02c

FBI research shows that armed guards in banks INCREASE the risk of violence and have no impact on robberies.

Parkland had an armed guard, actually a trained armed on duty sheriff. While we may like to think he was derelict, if he had gone in what would have happened? Not best case scenario, real likely scenarios, the fire alarm was pulled, the halls filled with teenagers, an active shooter and panic.

Yes, i still think he was derelict, doubly so if he had body armor, triply so if he didnt have body arnor on cause then hes just a dumbass, IMO. He could have entered and at least provided presence, direction and potentially cover in his area.  That's The Job.

All that said, had he gone in sans lucky encounter in the door, i suspect there is as much or more liklihood of increased death toll as any decrease.

And how will those armed guards react with any of the numerous semi-trivial gun incidents on campus? Keep in mind, the military is and the police increasingly are trained to escalate and overwhelm instead of de-escalate and defuse situations.

The FBI Dropped The Ball.
The Sheriff Dept Dropped the Ball. (Apparently Repeatedly)
Florida Social Sercives Handled The Ball (in Hindsight Looks Like A drop)
The school district has fingerprints all over it for years.

I know, lets add a fifth layer of government to do it...

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 26, 2018, 11:02:51 AM
To effectively stop centerfire rifle caliber hits you need "hard" body armor, typically steel or ceramic plate inserts for plate carriers.  You'll also need padding and anti-fragmentation protection, all of which adds to significant amount of weight.  The plates also only protect limited (chest) area (10"x12" or 11"x14"), you'll need front, back, and possibly side plate inserts.

Add weight of firearm, ammunition, radio, IFAK (first aid), non-lethal sidearm (taser?), etc. and you won't be running very fast.  I'm not sure how realistic it would be to expect every school guard to be outfitted in hard body armor.  You might need to give them golf carts to go around.

For my EDC (Every Day Carry) I pack lightweight soft plate insert (11"x14"), celox, z fold gauze and little roll of duct tape.  The soft plate will only stop pistol caliber but it's light enough that you won't notice it in your pack.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 26, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
I suppose i could ask the Santa Ana school PD guys i usually see getting coffee although their body armor is pretty apparent.

Although I'll note your concerns and reconsider my triply dumbass but still derelict.  Now from outisde hes going to be able to tell its a centerfire? Doubt it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 26, 2018, 12:31:58 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 26, 2018, 12:38:53 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?

I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 26, 2018, 01:06:52 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?

They don’t have mass shootings like the US. The quality of life is a different topic.

Was that you that you previously mentioned that your kids attend private school?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 26, 2018, 01:30:18 PM
This is interesting:

Quote
Peterson's statement said he and a security specialist ran to the scene at first word of the shooting, a report that mistakenly said firecrackers were being set off near one building. He then heard gunshots "but believed that those gunshots were originating from outside of the buildings."

Following his training to seek cover and assess the situation in the event of outdoor gunfire, he "took up a tactical position" between two nearby buildings while alerting dispatchers and initiating a "code red" lockdown of the campus, the statement said.

"Radio transmissions indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field," adding to his belief that the shooting was outside.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/students-resolute-enter-school-shooting-045640708.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 26, 2018, 02:31:02 PM
Sorry, when it takes you two weeks to come up with i thought the gunman was outside and followed my training, my BS meter chirps.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 26, 2018, 02:37:18 PM
The Lt. Governor of Georgia is threatening to use the state to punish private actors for political expression he finds distasteful

I guess this is a good example of left  wing political correctness on campus being out of control.


Georgia's lieutenant governor threatens to retaliate against Delta unless it reverses its decision on the NRA

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/26/casey-cagle-threatens-delta-cutting-nra-ties/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 26, 2018, 02:55:39 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?

They don’t have mass shootings like the US. The quality of life is a different topic.

Was that you that you previously mentioned that your kids attend private school?

I didn't say quality of life.  Can you name even one 3rd world country with safer schools than the US?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 26, 2018, 03:02:45 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?

They don’t have mass shootings like the US. The quality of life is a different topic.

Was that you that you previously mentioned that your kids attend private school?

I didn't say quality of life.  Can you name even one 3rd world country with safer schools than the US?

This article BTW is from 2012 - so will look even worse now if we add these last five years for the US


How school killings in the US stack up against 36 other countries put together

https://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings-in-the-us-stack-up-against-36-other-countries-put-together/


The data span 38 countries and nearly 250 years, from 1764 to 2010, and do not include “single homicides, off-campus homicides, killings caused by government actions, militaries, terrorists or militants.”

We tried to limit any effects of possible underreporting of cases by limiting the data set to the most recent ten years of data, between 2000 and 2010, and by counting only incidents in which someone was injured or killed. (Limiting the data to 2000 or after also eliminated one country that no longer exists: Austria-Hungary.)

The results are above. The number of such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 36 countries put together. In 13 of those countries there were no incidents at all, either actual or attempted.

In 2010, the US was home to a population of approximately 309 million. The populations of these other countries totaled 3.8 billion.

In the vast majority of US killings, perpetrators used guns. By comparison, China—with the second-greatest number of incidents—saw 10 mass killings, but none involving firearms. Germany saw three mass shootings; Finland saw two. Thirteen other countries each saw one incident with at least one person being wounded or killed; in the rest nobody was reported as hurt.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 26, 2018, 03:21:02 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?

They don’t have mass shootings like the US. The quality of life is a different topic.

Was that you that you previously mentioned that your kids attend private school?

I didn't say quality of life.  Can you name even one 3rd world country with safer schools than the US?

This article BTW is from 2012 - so will look even worse now if we add these last five years for the US


How school killings in the US stack up against 36 other countries put together

https://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings-in-the-us-stack-up-against-36-other-countries-put-together/


The data span 38 countries and nearly 250 years, from 1764 to 2010, and do not include “single homicides, off-campus homicides, killings caused by government actions, militaries, terrorists or militants.”

We tried to limit any effects of possible underreporting of cases by limiting the data set to the most recent ten years of data, between 2000 and 2010, and by counting only incidents in which someone was injured or killed. (Limiting the data to 2000 or after also eliminated one country that no longer exists: Austria-Hungary.)

The results are above. The number of such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 36 countries put together. In 13 of those countries there were no incidents at all, either actual or attempted.

In 2010, the US was home to a population of approximately 309 million. The populations of these other countries totaled 3.8 billion.

In the vast majority of US killings, perpetrators used guns. By comparison, China—with the second-greatest number of incidents—saw 10 mass killings, but none involving firearms. Germany saw three mass shootings; Finland saw two. Thirteen other countries each saw one incident with at least one person being wounded or killed; in the rest nobody was reported as hurt.

So which 3rd world country has safer schools than the US?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 26, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
I have seen this movie play before w the gay rights issue - apples and oranges to be fair , but similar culture shift dynamics playing out slowly till the dam breaks

Big difference:  Gay rights was about granting new rights to millions of people.  Gun control is about removing the rights of millions of people.

Any time you mess with somebody's rights, they are going to fight harder than the other side.

I think a person can say: School safety here is worst than a school in a third world country.

Ok, which 3rd world countries have safer schools than the US?  You must have one or two in mind, right?

They don’t have mass shootings like the US. The quality of life is a different topic.

Was that you that you previously mentioned that your kids attend private school?

I didn't say quality of life.  Can you name even one 3rd world country with safer schools than the US?

This article BTW is from 2012 - so will look even worse now if we add these last five years for the US


How school killings in the US stack up against 36 other countries put together

https://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings-in-the-us-stack-up-against-36-other-countries-put-together/


The data span 38 countries and nearly 250 years, from 1764 to 2010, and do not include “single homicides, off-campus homicides, killings caused by government actions, militaries, terrorists or militants.”

We tried to limit any effects of possible underreporting of cases by limiting the data set to the most recent ten years of data, between 2000 and 2010, and by counting only incidents in which someone was injured or killed. (Limiting the data to 2000 or after also eliminated one country that no longer exists: Austria-Hungary.)

The results are above. The number of such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 36 countries put together. In 13 of those countries there were no incidents at all, either actual or attempted.

In 2010, the US was home to a population of approximately 309 million. The populations of these other countries totaled 3.8 billion.

In the vast majority of US killings, perpetrators used guns. By comparison, China—with the second-greatest number of incidents—saw 10 mass killings, but none involving firearms. Germany saw three mass shootings; Finland saw two. Thirteen other countries each saw one incident with at least one person being wounded or killed; in the rest nobody was reported as hurt.

So which 3rd world country has safer schools than the US?

there is a list of 36 countries in that article many of which are developing (or  "3rd world") .  all of those have less incidents from school shootings than the US.

why do you keep repeating this question -- do you know for a fact all the " 3rd world " countries are unsafe compared to US in school shootings ?   do you have any data to prove it ?

As eyephone  clearly said , we are not talking about quality of life here -- maybe in those countries kids gets killed more often by traffic accidents walking on unpaved roads to school, or from communicable diseases  -  those are separate topics - we are not going to use the lowest common denominator as a benchmark for the United States here .
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 26, 2018, 03:53:08 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 26, 2018, 03:54:12 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.

One more reason why teachers should not be armed.  Confusion as to the number of shooters and hinders law enforcement ability to clear areas and victims.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 26, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
There are 195 countries, why pick those 36?

Now, given the iist of disclaimers and exclusions not to mention data sources (does Azerbijan have a great news service), it seems to eliminate most conflict outside the US

Now, does access to weapons make impulsive young adults more prone to attacking two or more?  Yes i suspect so.  Does it make them more likily to plan or attempt Parkland?  I havent seen that in the studies.

As for causes... Pick your pet thing, healthcare. Social safety net, income inequality, alcohol and drugs... Theyve all been linked tomhigher violence rates.

BTW, did you know our homocides rates have steadily fallen in linecwith our alcohol consumption as a country? 


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 26, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
To effectively stop centerfire rifle caliber hits you need "hard" body armor, typically steel or ceramic plate inserts for plate carriers.  You'll also need padding and anti-fragmentation protection, all of which adds to significant amount of weight.  The plates also only protect limited (chest) area (10"x12" or 11"x14"), you'll need front, back, and possibly side plate inserts.

Add weight of firearm, ammunition, radio, IFAK (first aid), non-lethal sidearm (taser?), etc. and you won't be running very fast.  I'm not sure how realistic it would be to expect every school guard to be outfitted in hard body armor.  You might need to give them golf carts to go around.

For my EDC (Every Day Carry) I pack lightweight soft plate insert (11"x14"), celox, z fold gauze and little roll of duct tape.  The soft plate will only stop pistol caliber but it's light enough that you won't notice it in your pack.

How about inserting the plate in our kids backpack?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 26, 2018, 05:15:32 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.

This just makes me have more questions.

Why do you have body armor with you?

I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 26, 2018, 05:31:14 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.

This just makes me have more questions.

Why do you have body armor with you?

I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.

I’m guessing the times have changed.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 26, 2018, 05:54:15 PM

Sigh ... again making me do all the work for you :)

Read the article before responding automatically to oppose — the data covers countries with 4 b in population , in other words most of humanity . But let’s not let facts come in the way shall we ?

The simple point was to support eyephones basic comment about gun violence at US schools versus others and I did.  No one else has refuted it .  Russian trolls / drudge / breitbart / etc can post scary headlines (albeit in bad english) and create sensational photoshopped  graphics but they are not good with excel spreadsheets .

Again , correlation is not causation  . Another line of thinking and  research links accesbility to birth control and abortion to drop in crime - but try telling that to evangelicals on the right

How about we link the secular drop in interest rates over last 30 years to drop in crime - that will correlate as well , no ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 26, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
This just makes me have more questions.
Why do you have body armor with you?
I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.

I'm a Prepper, not a gunslinger.  The idea is to be discrete while being reasonably prepared.  This means you don't want to look like an operator (or wanna be):

* Instead of military style backpack in multicam/black/coyote, you use a laptop/school/hiking backpack or messenger style laptop bag.
* Instead of a black range bag, you use a "bass pro shops" blue fishing/tackle/boat bag.
* Instead of tactical molle pouch in desert tan/black/green, you use a small sony/canon/nikon digital camera case.

My preference is to be light on my feet, so I only have soft armor insert for my kit.  In case of emergency I'd hold my pack/bag like a shield (covering head/chest area) and scoot.  Note that soft armor will only protect against handgun threats and are useless against rifles.

For my EDC (Every Day Carry) I pack a few emergency first aid items.  I'm not a medical professional and I'm only listing a few items that I've purchased and carried (in laptop bag, belt pouch, or pocket) for emergencies:

https://www.rescue-essentials.com/celox-rapid-ribbon/
https://www.rescue-essentials.com/quikclot-combat-gauze-z-folded-military/
https://www.rescue-essentials.com/celox-a/

The web site carries large assortment of emergency first aid products.  Do your own research and consult with medical professional as needed.

I do not carry firearms under normal conditions.  If SHTF and I need to leave the house, I'd pack a lightweight Ruger LCR revolver (<1 lb).  Revolvers only hold 5-6 rounds but I need the reliability and not having to worry about racking the slide, stovepipes, dud rounds, etc. -- it goes bang when I need it to.



How about inserting the plate in our kids backpack?

The soft plate inserts are on sale right now:
https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/backpack-armor.html
https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iiia-body-armor.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 27, 2018, 08:44:03 AM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.

This just makes me have more questions.

Why do you have body armor with you?

I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.
You're more likely to get capped in a confrontation with Paris than momo.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 27, 2018, 08:57:23 AM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)

It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).

If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.

This just makes me have more questions.

Why do you have body armor with you?

I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.
You're more likely to get capped in a confrontation with Paris than momo.

If I ever get in a confrontation with momo...I would just invite him to eat some good ramen or Korean BBQ.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 27, 2018, 09:51:24 AM
Yes , hate Krugman all you want but his points are very valid here


The Force of Decency Awakens


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/26/opinion/the-force-of-decency-awakens.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article


A funny thing is happening on the American scene: a powerful upwelling of decency. Suddenly, it seems as if the worst lack all conviction, while the best are filled with a passionate intensity. We don’t yet know whether this will translate into political change. But we may be in the midst of a transformative moment.

You can see the abrupt turn toward decency in the rise of the #MeToo movement; in a matter of months ground that had seemed immovable shifted, and powerful sexual predators started facing career-ending consequences.

You can see it in the reactions to the Parkland school massacre. For now, at least, the usual reaction to mass killings — a day or two of headlines, then a sort of collective shrug by the political class and a return to its normal obeisance to the gun lobby — isn’t playing out. Instead, the story is staying at the top of the news, and associating with the N.R.A. is starting to look like the political and business poison it should have been all along.

And I’d argue that you can see it at the ballot box, where hard-right politicians in usually reliable Republican districts keep being defeated thanks to surging activism by ordinary citizens.

This isn’t what anyone, certainly not the political commentariat, expected.

After the 2016 election many in the news media seemed all too ready to assume that Trumpism represented the real America, even though Hillary Clinton had won the popular vote and — Russian intervention and the Comey letter aside — would surely have won the electoral vote, too, but for the Big Sneer, the derisive tone adopted by countless reporters and pundits. There have been hundreds if not thousands of stories about grizzled Trump supporters sitting in diners, purportedly showing the out-of-touchness of our cultural elite.

Even the huge anti-Trump demonstrations just after Inauguration Day didn’t seem to move the conventional wisdom. But those pink pussy hats may have represented the beginning of real social and political change.

Political scientists have a term and a theory for what we’re seeing on #MeToo, guns and perhaps more: “regime change cascades.”

Here’s how it works: When people see the status quo as immovable, they tend to be passive even if they are themselves dissatisfied. Indeed, they may be unwilling to reveal their discontent, or to fully admit it to themselves. But once they see others visibly taking a stand, they both gain more confidence in their dissent and become more willing to act on it — and by their actions they may induce the same response in others, causing a kind of chain reaction.

Such cascades explain how huge political upheavals can quickly emerge, seemingly out of nowhere. Examples include the revolutions that swept Europe in 1848, the sudden collapse of communism in 1989 and the Arab Spring of 2011.


Now, nothing says that such cascades have to be positive either in their motivations or in their results. The period 2016-17 clearly represented a sort of Alt-Right Spring — springtime for fascists? — in which white supremacists and anti-Semites were emboldened not just by Donald Trump’s election but by the evidence that there were more like-minded people than anyone realized, both in the U.S. and Europe. Meanwhile, historians have described 1848 as a turning point where history somehow failed to turn: At the end of the day the old, corrupt regimes were still standing.

I nevertheless find the surge of indignation now building in America hugely encouraging. And yes, I think it’s all one surge. The #MeToo movement, the refusal to shrug off the Parkland massacre, the new political activism of outraged citizens (many of them women) all stem from a common perception: namely, that it’s not just about ideology, but that far too much power rests in the hands of men who are simply bad people.

And Exhibit A for that proposition is, of course, the tweeter in chief himself.

At the same time, what strikes me about the reaction to this growing backlash is not just its vileness, but its lameness. Trump’s response to Parkland — let’s arm teachers! — wasn’t just stupid, it was cowardly, an attempt to duck the issue, and I think many people realized that. Or consider how the Missouri G.O.P. has responded to the indictment of Gov. Eric Greitens, accused of trying to blackmail his lover with nude photos: by blaming … George Soros. I am not making this up.

Or consider the growing wildness of speeches by right-wing luminaries like Wayne LaPierre of the N.R.A. They’ve pretty much given up on making any substantive case for their ideas in favor of rants about socialists trying to take away your freedom. It’s scary stuff, but it’s also kind of whiny; it’s what people sound like when they know they’re losing the argument.

Again, there’s no guarantee that the forces of decency will win. In particular, the U.S. electoral system is in effect rigged in favor of Republicans, so Democrats will need to win the popular vote by something like seven percentage points to take the House. But we’re seeing a real uprising here, and there’s every reason to hope that change is coming.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 27, 2018, 10:25:11 AM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 27, 2018, 11:07:37 AM
Not someone you want to quote in hopes he's right...this time...if anything he bolsters the opposite case. He will be wrong...again.

Fact Checking Paul Krugman's Claim To Be "Right About Everything"

But can the debate really be as one-sided as I portray it? Well, look at the results: again and again, people on the opposite side prove to have used bad logic, bad data, the wrong historical analogies, or all of the above. I’m Krugtron the Invincible!

Thus wrote the great Paul Krugman. A man so modest as to proclaim that “I think I can say without false modesty, a huge win; I (and those of like mind) have been right about everything.”

Quite a claim. Indeed, predictions are extraordinarily difficult. Even to an expert in a subject who has dedicated his life to a field of study, predicting the future proves elusive. Daniel Kahneman referenced a study of 284 political and economic “experts” and their predictions and found that “The results were devastating. The experts performed worse than they would have if they had simply assigned equal probabilities to each of three potential outcomes.”

A whole book of such wildly inaccurate predictions by experts was compiled into the very humorous The Experts Speak with such prescient predictions as Dr. Alfred Velpeau’s “The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it” and Arthur Reynolds belief that “This crash [of 1929] is not going to have much effect on business.” Indeed, a foundational block of Austrian economics (that some Austrians unfortunately forgot regarding premature predictions of hyperinflation) is that the sheer number of variables in the world at large makes accurate forecasting extraordinarily difficult.

So it must be a rare man indeed that can be right about everything. And this man, Paul Krugman is not.

https://mises.org/library/fact-checking-paul-krugmans-claim-be-right-about-everything (https://mises.org/library/fact-checking-paul-krugmans-claim-be-right-about-everything)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 27, 2018, 11:37:21 AM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)

But haven't you heard? US schools are more dangerous than 3rd world countries.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 27, 2018, 11:54:21 AM
Who said that?  Paul Krugman?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on February 27, 2018, 11:58:24 AM
Just let Trump do a BTB... he'll even run in without a gun. :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 27, 2018, 01:00:27 PM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)

But haven't you heard? US schools are more dangerous than 3rd world countries.

You send your kids to private school. (So it doesn’t affect you?)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 27, 2018, 01:17:57 PM
That would be a bi-product and not the primary reason.

Catholic schools, spared from mass school shootings, remain vigilant

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2018/02/24/catholic-schools-spared-mass-school-shootings-remain-vigilant/ (https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2018/02/24/catholic-schools-spared-mass-school-shootings-remain-vigilant/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 27, 2018, 01:18:24 PM
Just let Trump do a BTB... he'll even run in without a gun. :)

He says school safety is a top priority: if you want it done right do it yourself? Lol
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 27, 2018, 01:38:52 PM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)

But haven't you heard? US schools are more dangerous than 3rd world countries.

You send your kids to private school. (So it doesn’t affect you?)

Breaking news alert:  Private schools are schools in the US.

Now name a 3rd world country that has safer schools.  You made the original claim, so this should be easy for you.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 27, 2018, 02:07:21 PM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)

But haven't you heard? US schools are more dangerous than 3rd world countries.

You send your kids to private school. (So it doesn’t affect you?)

Breaking news alert:  Private schools are schools in the US.

Now name a 3rd world country that has safer schools.  You made the original claim, so this should be easy for you.

Fortune already did.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 27, 2018, 02:14:29 PM
President Trump and Ivanka Trump says School Safety is priority. I think you should get on he same page. Or maybe you disagree with them?

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 27, 2018, 02:16:10 PM
Just let Trump do a BTB... he'll even run in without a gun. :)

He says school safety is a top priority: if you want it done right do it yourself? Lol

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 27, 2018, 02:22:58 PM
Too much for so little.

Schools safer today than in 1990s, study on shootings says


Despite the horror of the high school massacre in Florida, U.S. schools overall are safer today than they were in the early 1990s, and there is not an epidemic of such shootings, a new academic study is reporting.

Researchers at Northeastern University say mass school shootings are extremely rare, that shootings involving students have been declining since the 1990s, and four times as many children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/27/schools-safer-today-1990s-study-shootings-says/)

But haven't you heard? US schools are more dangerous than 3rd world countries.

You send your kids to private school. (So it doesn’t affect you?)

Breaking news alert:  Private schools are schools in the US.

Now name a 3rd world country that has safer schools.  You made the original claim, so this should be easy for you.

Fortune already did.

Then it should be super easy for you.  Just the name the country he listed.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 27, 2018, 02:26:37 PM
So momopi wears light armor "every day"?
I thought he was in IT, not covert combat missions. :)
It's in my pack, I don't actively wear it.  In case of emergency, hold over vital body area (head/chest).
If an assailant sees you wearing plate carrier, they'd just shoot you in the head.  Cops might confuse you as the assailant as well.  Unless if you're wearing a jacket, it's difficult to hide plate carrier profile.
This just makes me have more questions.
Why do you have body armor with you?
I’m assuming you carry too. I remember seeing pics of you back in the IHB days and I never thought you were in the Jason Bourne/Jack Reacher/John Wick line of work.
You're more likely to get capped in a confrontation with Paris than momo.
If I ever get in a confrontation with momo...I would just invite him to eat some good ramen or Korean BBQ.


Sadly, being diabetic I have to cut down on carbs.  So I've been reduced to eating low carb ramen.

(https://www.house-foods.com/uploads/tonkotsuramen.jpg)

https://www.house-foods.com/products/Tofu+Shirataki%252FShirataki/


Preppers typically do not like confrontations, because in SHTF scenario you cannot dial 911 to summon an ambulance.  The goal is to avoid confrontations, be discrete and hide in plain sight.  But if you get cornered by assailant where escape is not an option, then it's 2 to the chest and 1 to the head (Mozambique Drill).
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 27, 2018, 02:50:02 PM
I knew people were going to start attacking Krugman instantly instead of focusing on the merits of the actual article . 

But if we are going to play "attack the source". , at-least make a better selection next time on your source than a Neo Nazi Austrian website .  I can sympathize  though when are on the "Trump right"  these days its hard to pick off anything other than bottom of the barrel scarps for citing information.   

Here is what MISES.ORG is for the benefit of readers of this forum  --


he Mises Institute nurses grudges from the tail end of the disco era

Today, the Mises Institute and its associated LewRockwell.com website focus heavily on issues where they claim libertarians are wrongly alienating far-right support. Advocates of immigration reform are sneered at as “open-borderites.”

Reason magazine, long the flagship popular population of the libertarian movement, is derided as “[T]reason.” Rarely does a week go past without a broadside against the Cato Institute, nursing a grudge from the tail end of the disco era.

The Libertarian Party often becomes a target too. They particularly targeted Gov. Gary Johnson after his nomination as the party’s presidential candidate in 2016, with his campaign strategy of focusing on appeal to the “fiscally conservative, socially liberal” center.

Mises Institute fellows have gushed in support of Donald Trump and the alt-right Steve Bannon

Then came Donald Trump and the rise of the alt-right. While most libertarians were horrified by his ascent, praise for the Donald has naturally flowed from Auburn.

Referring to Trump’s alt-right chief strategist Steve Bannon, the Rockwell blog gushed that “Bannonism is libertarianism” because he represents “Austrian Economics applied to culture.”

Long-simmering tensions between the Mises Institute and other, more mainstream libertarian organizations surged when Trumpish neo-Nazi groups and white nationalist pledged to “Unite the Right” in their march on Charlottesville in August.

One of the sparks in the tenderbox was set off when Jeff Deist, currently Mises Institute’s president, gave a speech titled “For a New Libertarian.” He extolled libertarians to care more about “blood and soil and God and nationalism.”

As he explained, “an Irishman is not an Aboriginal, a Buddhist is not a Rastafarian, a soccer mom is not a Russian.”

The phrase “blood and soil” was one of the most notorious slogans of the Nazi Party. Days after Deist’s speech, hundreds of tiki-torch-wielding neo-Nazis would be chanting the same phrase as they terrorized Charlottesville in their support of a statue of Robert E. Lee.

The real Ludwig von Mises

This seems disturbingly dissonant to the memory of the man that many libertarians consider an intellectual hereo, Ludwig von Mises.

He was an immigrant refugee, a Jew who fled the Holocaust, an internationally-minded universalist, a staunch atheist harshly dismissive of the teachings of Christianity, and a consequentialist utilitarian.

Now, under his name, attacks are printed on “open-borderites” and “cosmopolitans” who fail to appreciate the importance of “blood and soil,” the supremacy of ethnic distinctions and conservative Christianity.


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 27, 2018, 04:51:11 PM
In his own words...idjut! The messenger is not worth listening to.

Now comes the mother of all adverse effects — and what it brings with it is a regime that will be ignorant of economic policy and hostile to any effort to make it work. Effective fiscal support for the Fed? Not a chance. In fact, you can bet that the Fed will lose its independence, and be bullied by cranks.

So we are very probably looking at a global recession, with no end in sight. I suppose we could get lucky somehow. But on economics, as on everything else, a terrible thing has just happened

Paul Krugman Election Day 2016
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 27, 2018, 11:46:17 PM
Does anyone really want these right wing nut jobs within 1000 feet of our kids  ?

Right, didn't think so.



In Oath Keepers Webinar, Student Gun Control Activists Are ‘The Enemy’


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/oath-keepers-webinar-parkland-student-activists-enemy

An Oath Keeper from Idaho in Bozeman, Montana. The "Oath Keepers" are a national, ultra-rightwing "Patriot" group comprised of former and active military, police and public safety personnel who have taken an oath to "uphold the Constitution" and to refuse to follow orders that they decide are unconstitutional.

The Oath Keepers militia group on Monday issued an official “call to action” asking their members to serve as voluntary armed guards at U.S. schools, in order to intervene in the event of a mass shooting.

But the group doesn’t seem to think much of some of the students they say they want to protect.

During a meandering Monday night webinar held by the far-right, anti-government group, the gun writer David Codrea referred to Emma González and David Hogg, survivors of the Valentine’s Day school shooting in Parkland, Florida as “the enemy.”


González and Hogg have been at the forefront of a student activist movement urging Congress to pass gun control legislation.

Codrea, a writer for the Oath Keepers and War on Guns blogs, also said that Gonzalez’s father is a “refugee from Castro’s Cuba,” and lamented that the National Rifle’s Association 595,000 Twitter followers paled in comparison to the one million that follow “this young Communist girl.”

Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes, who hosted the webinar, suggested that law enforcement may have deliberately ignored multiple tips about the shooter, Nikolas Cruz, in order to allow a massacre that could pave the way for gun control.

“It was a conspiracy to intentionally leave our children exposed to mass murder,” Rhodes said.

Rhodes and other speakers also talked about the group’s effort to station armed Oath Keepers volunteers, who are military and police veterans, at schools across the U.S., “whether they want us to or not,” as Rhodes put it at the start of the webinar.

Rhodes spoke to TPM about that idea Monday.

Another speaker on the webinar, Matt Bracken, said that sending armed guards to schools, “if handled right, could be very good PR” for the group. Bracken is the author of several books promoting gun rights, including “Enemies: Foreign and Domestic,” “Domestic Enemies: The Reconquista” and “Foreign Enemies and Traitors.”

So far, only Indiana member Marc Cowan appears to have taken up the call to arms, stationing himself since Friday on the perimeter of Fort Wayne’s North Side High School’s campus with an AR-15 and handgun.

The Fort Wayne school district said they don’t think the presence of armed volunteers like Cowan makes their students any safer.

The online session, which went on for almost two hours, was marred by technological glitches. Bracken’s video stream was the only one visible. Codrea chose to remain off camera because he’d been stricken by pneumonia, and as a result, he said, had been in a robe all day.

The conversation focused less on operational details for members, and more on denunciations of what Codrea called the “Leni Riefenstahls” in the media, bent on manipulating the national conversation on guns.

“When are citizens going to enforce our constitution?” one participant asked in a chat on the sidebar.

“We should be all the time, that is up to all of us!” replied the Oath Keepers’ moderator.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
I mean what could go wrong with more guns at school?

Quote
Police say a teacher has been taken into custody after a security incident at Dalton High School in Dalton, Georgia, involving a person who was barricaded in a classroom: "no children hurt, no children in danger."

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/968900499910152192
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 28, 2018, 10:10:33 AM
During the pro-Trump free speech rally in Berkeley last year (April 2017), the two opposing sides (pro-trump vs antifa) engaged in melee and random projectile exchange.  It was noted that the most disciplined group was the Oathkeepers, who worked hard to keep combatants at bay and dispense medical aid to the injured.  They also did not tolerate white nationalists displaying nazi flags.

Understand that the founding fathers of this nation were actually political extremists who valued their freedom and self determination over the cost of war against the British Empire.  Hardcore Constitutionalists look up to this ideal and their opponents will eventually take an anti-constitution stance where they think the founding father's ideals are outdated.  Those who understand this growing political-ideological divide where compromise is not likely are prepping for worse case scenarios.  I won't say "civil war" (that's Alex Jones fantasy), but the potential for mass disturbance in urban areas cannot be ignored.  I'd suggest stockpiling at least 2 weeks of food, water, medicine, sanitation (honey buckets & kitchen trash bags) and other necessities to start, and gradually increase your stockpile to 2 months.

If you want to talk to and understand where many of these folks are coming from, visit Mike Raahauge outdoor range in Corona when they have weekend events and meet the attendees.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 10:33:00 AM
During the pro-Trump free speech rally in Berkeley last year (April 2017), the two opposing sides (pro-trump vs antifa) engaged in melee and random projectile exchange.  It was noted that the most disciplined group was the Oathkeepers, who worked hard to keep combatants at bay and dispense medical aid to the injured.  They also did not tolerate white nationalists displaying nazi flags.

Understand that the founding fathers of this nation were actually political extremists who valued their freedom and self determination over the cost of war against the British Empire.  Hardcore Constitutionalists look up to this ideal and their opponents will eventually take an anti-constitution stance where they think the founding father's ideals are outdated.  Those who understand this growing political-ideological divide where compromise is not likely are prepping for worse case scenarios.  I won't say "civil war" (that's Alex Jones fantasy), but the potential for mass disturbance in urban areas cannot be ignored.  I'd suggest stockpiling at least 2 weeks of food, water, medicine, sanitation (honey buckets & kitchen trash bags) and other necessities to start, and gradually increase your stockpile to 2 months.

If you want to talk to and understand where many of these folks are coming from, visit Mike Raahauge outdoor range in Corona when they have weekend events and meet the attendees.

Sorry but I don't buy it re Oath Keepers:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2013/07/25/oath-keepers-rally-reveals-radical-politics-group
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 28, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
 :P“Teacher in Custody After Reports of Shooting at Georgia High School, Police Say

DALTON, Ga.) — Police officers responded to reports of shots fired inside a Georgia high school on Wednesday and a teacher who was apparently barricaded in a classroom was taken into custody, authorities said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5179477/dalton-high-school-shooting

This happened today!!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 28, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
Sorry but I don't buy it re Oath Keepers:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2013/07/25/oath-keepers-rally-reveals-radical-politics-group

As the political divide widens, you can expect both Oath Keepers and SPLC to move further toward intolerance of the opposition.  SPLC has already started blacklisting outspoken critics as extremists.

In upcoming years I expect to see proposals like:

"National Statue for Promotion of Tolerance" as cover to send critics to reeducation programs, likely starting with schools.

"Media Improvement Committee" as cover for censorship and book removal from libraries/amazon.com.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 11:53:34 AM
Sorry but I don't buy it re Oath Keepers:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2013/07/25/oath-keepers-rally-reveals-radical-politics-group

As the political divide widens, you can expect both Oatk Keepers and SPLC to move further toward intolerance of the opposition.  SPLC has already started blacklisting outspoken critics as extremists.

In upcoming years I expect to see proposals like:

"National Statue for Promotion of Tolerance" as cover to send critics to reeducation programs, likely starting with schools.
"Media Improvement Committee" as cover for censorship and book removal from libraries/amazon.com.

That's pretty crazy.  SPLC has a great history of naming extremists and racist organizations.  It is unfair to lump them with some upstart organization moving toward the overthrown of the government.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 28, 2018, 12:23:44 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 28, 2018, 12:43:40 PM
We hate hate...Hate it.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 12:45:51 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on February 28, 2018, 12:56:41 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.

I use pretty simple criteria.  If you show up to support history and pride of southern confederacy and find yourself in a march with Tiki torches chanting 'jew  will not replace us...'

You're on the wrong side.

Similarly, if you start a riot because some shock jock wannabe you don't agree with is going to speak in an auditorium, you're also on the wrong side.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 28, 2018, 12:59:33 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.

Maybe you're right.... Dr. Ben Carson is equivalent to the KKK now.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.

Maybe you're right.... Dr. Ben Carson is equivalent to the KKK now.

Not in the same category:

According to the SPLC, “Extremists in the U.S. come in many different forms – white nationalists, anti-gay zealots, black separatists, racist skinheads, neo-Confederates and more.”
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on February 28, 2018, 01:24:41 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.

Maybe you're right.... Dr. Ben Carson is equivalent to the KKK now.

Not in the same category:

According to the SPLC, “Extremists in the U.S. come in many different forms – white nationalists, anti-gay zealots, black separatists, racist skinheads, neo-Confederates and more.”

Oh ok... They list Rand Paul in the same category as the KKK.  I just don't remember him lynching anybody.  You'll have to remind me of the time that happened.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 01:46:45 PM
SPLC used to have a great reputation.  Now they have been shown to list people/groups they disagree with politically as hate groups.  They are diluting the meaning of "hate group" in order to smear people they don't like, and collect fat donations from politically aligned activists in the process.

Or your standard of what a "hate group" is has changed.

Maybe you're right.... Dr. Ben Carson is equivalent to the KKK now.

Not in the same category:

According to the SPLC, “Extremists in the U.S. come in many different forms – white nationalists, anti-gay zealots, black separatists, racist skinheads, neo-Confederates and more.”

Oh ok... They list Rand Paul in the same category as the KKK.  I just don't remember him lynching anybody.  You'll have to remind me of the time that happened.

Violence is one for of expression for hate.  Politicians that advocate for hateful legislation should also be called out. 

I mean should Strom Thurmond and George Wallace not be considered along with KKK?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 28, 2018, 01:54:40 PM
The corruption of SPLC is just a reflection of the political divide.  To me, the First Amendment is too high of a price to pay for banning/burning the Turner Diaries.  But the political reality is that many of the younger generation do not hold the same values.  They would self identify as progressive while I get labelled reactionary.  The American Revolutionary War will be taught as a war started by political radicals (Founding Fathers) and unnecessary, pointing to Canada as example of achieving their eventual independence without violence.
 
When I was young, I was taught that after a Presidential Election, the winner and loser will shake hands, be friends and go back to being one country.  In future I expect a country of bad losers, refusing to concede while taking polar opposite ideological positions.  I don't think we'd have civil war but the risk of mass political unrest, protest, rioting/looting, etc. in urban areas cannot be ignored.

What can we expect in such scenario?  Delivery trucks will stop running and supermarket shelves will be emptied within 1-3 days.  Gas stations will be closed, utilities may be down, law enforcement/emergency services gone, and it may take days to weeks before the national guard arrives to restore order.

Here's a few points to prepare for such scenario:

1.  Put away $50/month this year for your prepping budget.

2.  Store drinking water.  Costco sells 6 pack 1 gallon water jugs that I've stored in backyard store bin for 3 years and still tastes fine.  Or you can use to water plants after 3 years and replace with new ones.  Plan on at least 1/2 gallon (preferably one gallon) per person per day.

3.  Store food.  Costco canned chicken/beef/fish has 3-5+ year shelf life and can be rotated by weekly use -- just use it to make chicken salad once a week.  You don't need to buy expensive MRE sausage patties that look like and taste like cat food.

4.  Store medicine.  In addition to first aid and over the counter meds, you can obtain extra prescription meds that you um, "lost" or "spilled" by paying out of pocket at the pharmacy.  Don't be greedy as meds expire and remember to rotate.

5.  Store hygiene items, including "honey bucket" toilets.  It's a toilet seat cover for buckets and you can buy them at Walmart.   Store it with quality kitchen trash bags and toilet paper.  After use just tie the trash bag and dispose in trash bin outside.  You don't need the expensive honey bucket toilet bags.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 02:02:01 PM
The corruption of SPLC is just a reflection of the political divide.  To me, the First Amendment is too high of a price to pay for banning/burning the Turner Diaries.  But the political reality is that many of the younger generation do not hold the same values.  They would self identify as progressive while I get labelled reactionary.  The American Revolutionary War will be taught as a war started by political radicals (Founding Fathers) and unnecessary, pointing to Canada as example of achieving their eventual independence without violence.
 
When I was young, I was taught that after a Presidential Election, the winner and loser will shake hands, be friends and go back to being one country.  In future I expect a country of bad losers, refusing to concede while taking polar opposite ideological positions.  I don't think we'd have civil war but the risk of mass political unrest, protest, rioting/looting, etc. in urban areas cannot be ignored.

What can we expect in such scenario?  Delivery trucks will stop running and supermarket shelves will be emptied within 1-3 days.  Gas stations will be closed, utilities may be down, law enforcement/emergency services gone, and it may take days to weeks before the national guard arrives to restore order.

Here's a few points to prepare for such scenario:

1.  Put away $50/month this year for your prepping budget.

2.  Store drinking water.  Costco sells 6 pack 1 gallon water jugs that I've stored in backyard store bin for 3 years and still tastes fine.  Or you can use to water plants after 3 years and replace with new ones.  Plan on at least 1/2 gallon (preferably one gallon) per person per day.

3.  Store food.  Costco canned chicken/beef/fish has 3-5+ year shelf life and can be rotated by weekly use -- just use it to make chicken salad once a week.  You don't need to buy expensive MRE sausage patties that look like and taste like cat food.

4.  Store medicine.  In addition to first aid and over the counter meds, you can obtain extra prescription meds that you um, "lost" or "spilled" by paying out of pocket at the pharmacy.  Don't be greedy as meds expire and remember to rotate.

5.  Store hygiene items, including "honey bucket" toilets.  It's a toilet seat cover for buckets and you can buy them at Walmart.   Store it with quality kitchen trash bags and toilet paper.  After use just tie the trash bag and dispose in trash bin outside.  You don't need the expensive honey bucket toilet bags.

Change is hard...see 1960s.  We are having a societal shift..old guard trying hard to keep the change from coming.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 03:22:00 PM
For all the talk about lumping actual hate groups with non violent charitable non profits  --

who wants to live next door to these psychos ?  What if a bunch of oath keepers moved next door to your neighborhood ?  Would home values go up because the neighborhood now has more people who believe in the founding principles ?

all this libertarian b/s is fine when you want romantic speeches but I bet you none of the so called "think tankers" from Cato / Heritage want these wackos anywhere near them

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts , many of the right wing groups may have started off with noble causes but in the age of trump / Fox News / breitbart , they have reducted down to 

1. blood and soil nationalism
2. strictly defining American culture as "white " culture not to be polluted with others
3. demonizing the other side and treating every issue as a "war" - us versus them
4. govt encroachment is something to be fought w arms when it is the other side but when it is trump telling states what to do with mariuana , it is fine . Same w deficits and debt.





Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 28, 2018, 03:40:07 PM
One sick puppy? Lol
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
Nope...no effect at all

Quote
Walmart is set to raise the minimum age for gun purchases and ammunition, according to a statement from the company.

The nation’s largest retailer announced Wednesday it will hike the minimum age for firearms purchases to 21 years of age.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/376154-walmart-to-raise-age-limit-on-gun-purchases
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 28, 2018, 03:49:10 PM
DICKS sporting goods will stop selling assault style weapons.


https://www.theblaze.com/video/ceo-of-dicks-sporting-goods-says-decision-to-end-sale-of-assault-style-weapons-is-irreversible

And yes the proper name is DICKS sporting goods (the word dicks is all caps)


Nope...no effect at all

Quote
Walmart is set to raise the minimum age for gun purchases and ammunition, according to a statement from the company.

The nation’s largest retailer announced Wednesday it will hike the minimum age for firearms purchases to 21 years of age.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/376154-walmart-to-raise-age-limit-on-gun-purchases
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 28, 2018, 03:54:13 PM
For all the talk about lumping actual hate groups with non violent charitable non profits  --

who wants to live next door to these psychos ?  What if a bunch of oath keepers moved next door to your neighborhood ?  Would home values go up because the neighborhood now has more people who believe in the founding principles ?

all this libertarian b/s is fine when you want romantic speeches but I bet you none of the so called "think tankers" from Cato / Heritage want these wackos anywhere near them

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts , many of the right wing groups may have started off with noble causes but in the age of trump / Fox News / breitbart , they have reducted down to 

1. blood and soil nationalism
2. strictly defining American culture as "white " culture not to be polluted with others
3. demonizing the other side and treating every issue as a "war" - us versus them
4. govt encroachment is something to be fought w arms when it is the other side but when it is trump telling states what to do with mariuana , it is fine . Same w deficits and debt.


This kind of describes white flight, where mostly Republican-leaning white families who believes in the Constitution and Founding Principals of the nation move to what they consider to be more desirable neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 04:19:12 PM
For all the talk about lumping actual hate groups with non violent charitable non profits  --

who wants to live next door to these psychos ?  What if a bunch of oath keepers moved next door to your neighborhood ?  Would home values go up because the neighborhood now has more people who believe in the founding principles ?

all this libertarian b/s is fine when you want romantic speeches but I bet you none of the so called "think tankers" from Cato / Heritage want these wackos anywhere near them

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts , many of the right wing groups may have started off with noble causes but in the age of trump / Fox News / breitbart , they have reducted down to 

1. blood and soil nationalism
2. strictly defining American culture as "white " culture not to be polluted with others
3. demonizing the other side and treating every issue as a "war" - us versus them
4. govt encroachment is something to be fought w arms when it is the other side but when it is trump telling states what to do with mariuana , it is fine . Same w deficits and debt.


This kind of describes white flight, where mostly Republican-leaning white families who believes in the Constitution and Founding Principals of the nation move to what they consider to be more desirable neighborhoods.

Not exactly .  and this is a good point to highlight and discuss actually

1. Gays and other "cool"  groups , hipsters etc moving into a neighborhood adds to its perceived value

2. Young educated families comfortable w diversity adds value to a neighborhood  - both parents working elite white collar jobs etc

3. Gun crazy loners and white supremacists do NOT add value to a neighborhood

The "white" flight you are talking about (and correct me if I misinterpreted you) -- is when poor minorities move into a neighborhood and whites who dont want to do the heavy lifting to help w assimilation call it quits.  this generally leads to a drop in home values . Example could be Hyde Park neighborhood in Chicago.   These whites are not necessarily conservative - and this is a KEY distinction from what I am talking below

The second type of white flight is actually beneficial for a neighborhood -- this is when conservative whites live in a neighborhood that is increasingly being seen as desirable by newer , well educated and rich immigrants.  The whites leaving in this case does NOT lead to a degradation in neighborhood value or drop in home prices .  An example here would be older whites  fleeing Irvine for San Clemente , etc.  The younger generations are much more comfortable with different cultures , cuisines etc and as long as there is good mix of educated people with focus on family and kids, the neighborhood continues to thrive.   

Again, I realize I am making broad sweeping generalizations here and there will be a multitude of exceptions. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 04:25:33 PM
Hate to be belaboring this every time  , but need to keep setting the record straight -- this is what I have been talking about since two weeks ago. 

Few people see the change coming until the culture shifts out from right under them - it is always bit by bit

And soon enough fast forward on this same forum a few years from now , we will all be thinking from a new baseline, just as with gay rights issues

Walmart is not some Whole Foods based in liberal Austin -- it is "as red as they come "



Walmart says it will raise age for purchase of firearms and ammunition to 21
The company said in a statement that “in light of recent events, we’ve taken an opportunity to review our policy on firearm sales.”

The move comes as other companies have taken action in the wake of the Feb. 14 school shooting in Florida. On Wednesday, the chief executive of Dick’s Sporting Goods also said its company will no longer sell assault-style firearms, will ban high-capacity magazines and will not sell any guns to people younger than 21.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 04:28:04 PM
For all the talk about lumping actual hate groups with non violent charitable non profits  --

who wants to live next door to these psychos ?  What if a bunch of oath keepers moved next door to your neighborhood ?  Would home values go up because the neighborhood now has more people who believe in the founding principles ?

all this libertarian b/s is fine when you want romantic speeches but I bet you none of the so called "think tankers" from Cato / Heritage want these wackos anywhere near them

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts , many of the right wing groups may have started off with noble causes but in the age of trump / Fox News / breitbart , they have reducted down to 

1. blood and soil nationalism
2. strictly defining American culture as "white " culture not to be polluted with others
3. demonizing the other side and treating every issue as a "war" - us versus them
4. govt encroachment is something to be fought w arms when it is the other side but when it is trump telling states what to do with mariuana , it is fine . Same w deficits and debt.


This kind of describes white flight, where mostly Republican-leaning white families who believes in the Constitution and Founding Principals of the nation move to what they consider to be more desirable neighborhoods.

Not exactly .  and this is a good point to highlight and discuss actually

1. Gays and other "cool"  groups , hipsters etc moving into a neighborhood adds to its perceived value

2. Young educated families comfortable w diversity adds value to a neighborhood  - both parents working elite white collar jobs etc

3. Gun crazy loners and white supremacists do NOT add value to a neighborhood

The "white" flight you are talking about (and correct me if I misinterpreted you) -- is when poor minorities move into a neighborhood and whites who dont want to do the heavy lifting to help w assimilation call it quits.  this generally leads to a drop in home values . Example could be Hyde Park neighborhood in Chicago.   These whites are not necessarily conservative - and this is a KEY distinction from what I am talking below

The second type of white flight is actually beneficial for a neighborhood -- this is when conservative whites live in a neighborhood that is increasingly being seen as desirable by newer , well educated and rich immigrants.  The whites leaving in this case does NOT lead to a degradation in neighborhood value or drop in home prices .  An example here would be older whites  fleeing Irvine for San Clemente , etc.  The younger generations are much more comfortable with different cultures , cuisines etc and as long as there is good mix of educated people with focus on family and kids, the neighborhood continues to thrive.   

Again, I realize I am making broad sweeping generalizations here and there will be a multitude of exceptions.

A lot of "white flight" was the result of racist government and private policies that literally redlined minorities into inner cities while excluding them from buying homes in the suburbs. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 04:32:00 PM
For all the talk about lumping actual hate groups with non violent charitable non profits  --

who wants to live next door to these psychos ?  What if a bunch of oath keepers moved next door to your neighborhood ?  Would home values go up because the neighborhood now has more people who believe in the founding principles ?

all this libertarian b/s is fine when you want romantic speeches but I bet you none of the so called "think tankers" from Cato / Heritage want these wackos anywhere near them

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts , many of the right wing groups may have started off with noble causes but in the age of trump / Fox News / breitbart , they have reducted down to 

1. blood and soil nationalism
2. strictly defining American culture as "white " culture not to be polluted with others
3. demonizing the other side and treating every issue as a "war" - us versus them
4. govt encroachment is something to be fought w arms when it is the other side but when it is trump telling states what to do with mariuana , it is fine . Same w deficits and debt.


This kind of describes white flight, where mostly Republican-leaning white families who believes in the Constitution and Founding Principals of the nation move to what they consider to be more desirable neighborhoods.

Not exactly .  and this is a good point to highlight and discuss actually

1. Gays and other "cool"  groups , hipsters etc moving into a neighborhood adds to its perceived value

2. Young educated families comfortable w diversity adds value to a neighborhood  - both parents working elite white collar jobs etc

3. Gun crazy loners and white supremacists do NOT add value to a neighborhood

The "white" flight you are talking about (and correct me if I misinterpreted you) -- is when poor minorities move into a neighborhood and whites who dont want to do the heavy lifting to help w assimilation call it quits.  this generally leads to a drop in home values . Example could be Hyde Park neighborhood in Chicago.   These whites are not necessarily conservative - and this is a KEY distinction from what I am talking below

The second type of white flight is actually beneficial for a neighborhood -- this is when conservative whites live in a neighborhood that is increasingly being seen as desirable by newer , well educated and rich immigrants.  The whites leaving in this case does NOT lead to a degradation in neighborhood value or drop in home prices .  An example here would be older whites  fleeing Irvine for San Clemente , etc.  The younger generations are much more comfortable with different cultures , cuisines etc and as long as there is good mix of educated people with focus on family and kids, the neighborhood continues to thrive.   

Again, I realize I am making broad sweeping generalizations here and there will be a multitude of exceptions.

A lot of "white flight" was the result of racist government and private policies that literally redlined minorities into inner cities while excluding them from buying homes in the suburbs.

Very important point and I failed to mention this.  Good catch !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 28, 2018, 04:45:33 PM


1. Gays and other "cool"  groups , hipsters etc moving into a neighborhood adds to its perceived value


4 out of 5 long time residents agree that cool groups and hipsters should not move into their neighborhoods. Gentrification Sucks.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 05:07:50 PM


1. Gays and other "cool"  groups , hipsters etc moving into a neighborhood adds to its perceived value


4 out of 5 long time residents agree that cool groups and hipsters should not move into their neighborhoods. Gentrification Sucks.

Old time residents can let their neighborhoods remain in stasis for all I care - if it helps them feel more comfortable with themselves - this is from purely objective angle of perceived home values - which was my point here.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on February 28, 2018, 05:10:17 PM
Dicks Sporting Goods stopped selling AR-15' back in 2012, only the small number of Field and Stream stores continued to carry them since.  To compare there are over 600 Dicks Sporting Goods (not all carry firearms), and only 35 Field and Stream stores.  Walmart stopped selling AR-15's in 2015 and all firearms in CA in 2003.  In other States Walmart had stopped selling handguns except Alaska.  Firearms is a low margin and high liability item, it's more profitable to sell ammo.

Facebook and social media has effectively put people in their own bubbles where they only see conforming political/ideological/religious views.  These software are products of Aspergers living in Happy Aspie Land (Silicon Valley) pushing their lifestyle on rest of us.  Some of you only know me as an IT worker in Irvine.  I spent a couple years working as a MRO consultant in heavy industry across US and Canada, implementing just in time inventory systems.  The job enabled me to travel and work across 20-30 states and 5 Canadian provinces.  I've stood in Valley Forge in Penn, dined at Amish restaurant in Ohio, and stood knee deep in snow at Fort Mac & remote camps in Northern Alberta (oil sands).

I've learned through my travels that the country is a diverse place and people use words and terms like "white flight" differently.  This makes communication rather interesting.  If you're talking to someone from Korea who use "hand phone" for cell phone and "black box' for dash cam, the English words may differ but they mean the same thing and it's not hard to communicate on same level.  But if you're talking to someone in the US with different cultural/political ideology and definition of a word or term, sometimes you have to ask what does <insert word> mean to you.  Like "bless your heart" has different meaning in certain areas.

I recall dining at the cafeteria in Southern factory, the employees were curious about Californians and asked me various questions.  The topic of firearms came up and everyone (except me) at the table pulled out their carry cards.  Fast forward to last month, I was having lunch with former Asian coworkers in Irvine, and one Taiwanese guy at table asked what was required to purchase firearm in the US.  To my surprise Everyone (except that guy) pulled out their CA firearm safety cert card, including the Japanese girl who sat across from me.  I later found out that she owns 3 pistols.  Four of us are carpooling to Bass Pro Shops in Rancho this weekend.  I suspect the % of firearm owners here is probably much higher than whatever statistics they published from surveys.

Lastly, I took the Oath of Citizenship where I swore "I will support and defend the Constitution".  If you took this oath but you don't believe in or uphold the Constitution and the Founding Principals, then you lied.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 05:21:16 PM
Lo and behold ..  just as I predicted

But we also know he is the biggest flip flopper out there -- we will hav e to wait and see


Trump tells senators 'You're afraid of the NRA'


(CNN)President Donald Trump asked Sen. Pat Toomey, a Pennsylvania Republican who's worked on a bill to strengthen background checks for gun purchases, whether he left a proposal to raise the gun purchasing age to 21 out of his measure because senators are "afraid of the NRA."

In an exchange during a meeting of a bipartisan group of senators at the White House, Trump asked Sens. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Toomey if their background check bill they authored in the aftermath of a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 included a provision that would have raised the age at which individuals could purchase rifles from 18 to 21.

Toomey said it did not.

"You know why? Because you're afraid of the NRA," Trump said.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 05:24:52 PM
Dicks Sporting Goods stopped selling AR-15' back in 2012, only the small number of Field and Stream stores continued to carry them since.  To compare there are over 600 Dicks Sporting Goods (not all carry firearms), and only 35 Field and Stream stores.  Walmart stopped selling AR-15's in 2015 and all firearms in CA in 2003.  In other States Walmart had stopped selling handguns except Alaska.  Firearms is a low margin and high liability item, it's more profitable to sell ammo.

Facebook and social media has effectively put people in their own bubbles where they only see conforming political/ideological/religious views.  These software are products of Aspergers living in Happy Aspie Land (Silicon Valley) pushing their lifestyle on rest of us.  Some of you only know me as an IT worker in Irvine.  I spent a couple years working as a MRO consultant in heavy industry across US and Canada, implementing just in time inventory systems.  The job enabled me to travel and work across 20-30 states and 5 Canadian provinces.  I've stood in Valley Forge in Penn, dined at Amish restaurant in Ohio, and stood knee deep in snow at Fort Mac & remote camps in Northern Alberta (oil sands).

I've learned through my travels that the country is a diverse place and people use words and terms like "white flight" differently.  This makes communication rather interesting.  If you're talking to someone from Korea who use "hand phone" for cell phone and "black box' for dash cam, the English words may differ but they mean the same thing and it's not hard to communicate on same level.  But if you're talking to someone in the US with different cultural/political ideology and definition of a word or term, sometimes you have to ask what does <insert word> mean to you.  Like "bless your heart" has different meaning in certain areas.

I recall dining at the cafeteria in Southern factory, the employees were curious about Californians and asked me various questions.  The topic of firearms came up and everyone (except me) at the table pulled out their carry cards.  Fast forward to last month, I was having lunch with former Asian coworkers in Irvine, and one Taiwanese guy at table asked what was required to purchase firearm in the US.  To my surprise Everyone (except that guy) pulled out their CA firearm safety cert card, including the Japanese girl who sat across from me.  I later found out that she owns 3 pistols.  Four of us are carpooling to Bass Pro Shops in Rancho this weekend.  I suspect the % of firearm owners here is probably much higher than whatever statistics they published from surveys.

Lastly, I took the Oath of Citizenship where I swore "I will support and defend the Constitution".  If you took this oath but you don't believe in or uphold the Constitution and the Founding Principals, then you lied.

Interpretation of the Constitution is pretty fluid...and Founding Principles are not part of the Constitution.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 05:33:17 PM
@momopi - I really like your posts that have a lot of thought behind them. 

But I think we are making the same mistake here that we accuse radical adherents of  Islam of making - taking a literal interpretation of their holy text from thousands of years ago

Apples and oranges yes

But a literal interpretation of the constitution from its original context and setting would also involve limiting firearm ownership  to maybe muskets ?  then the gun lovers could own all the muskets they wanted, while other rest of us were free to use them as walking sticks

And dont forget the founding fathers also owned slaves - we dont ding them for it because it was a different cultural context back then when people of color were property to be owned and disposed off at will
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 05:39:05 PM
And everyone -- honestly , ask yourselves  --- what type of discussion would we be having right now if the Florida shooter was wearing a "Black Lives Matter" t-shirt   or had a crescent moon and star instead of MAGA merchandise ?   How long would it take us to make that aspect the biggest and major part of the discussion on this topic ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 28, 2018, 05:40:48 PM
Dicks Sporting Goods stopped selling AR-15' back in 2012, only the small number of Field and Stream stores continued to carry them since.  To compare there are over 600 Dicks Sporting Goods (not all carry firearms), and only 35 Field and Stream stores.  Walmart stopped selling AR-15's in 2015 and all firearms in CA in 2003.  In other States Walmart had stopped selling handguns except Alaska.  Firearms is a low margin and high liability item, it's more profitable to sell ammo.

Facebook and social media has effectively put people in their own bubbles where they only see conforming political/ideological/religious views.  These software are products of Aspergers living in Happy Aspie Land (Silicon Valley) pushing their lifestyle on rest of us.  Some of you only know me as an IT worker in Irvine.  I spent a couple years working as a MRO consultant in heavy industry across US and Canada, implementing just in time inventory systems.  The job enabled me to travel and work across 20-30 states and 5 Canadian provinces.  I've stood in Valley Forge in Penn, dined at Amish restaurant in Ohio, and stood knee deep in snow at Fort Mac & remote camps in Northern Alberta (oil sands).

I've learned through my travels that the country is a diverse place and people use words and terms like "white flight" differently.  This makes communication rather interesting.  If you're talking to someone from Korea who use "hand phone" for cell phone and "black box' for dash cam, the English words may differ but they mean the same thing and it's not hard to communicate on same level.  But if you're talking to someone in the US with different cultural/political ideology and definition of a word or term, sometimes you have to ask what does <insert word> mean to you.  Like "bless your heart" has different meaning in certain areas.

I recall dining at the cafeteria in Southern factory, the employees were curious about Californians and asked me various questions.  The topic of firearms came up and everyone (except me) at the table pulled out their carry cards.  Fast forward to last month, I was having lunch with former Asian coworkers in Irvine, and one Taiwanese guy at table asked what was required to purchase firearm in the US.  To my surprise Everyone (except that guy) pulled out their CA firearm safety cert card, including the Japanese girl who sat across from me.  I later found out that she owns 3 pistols.  Four of us are carpooling to Bass Pro Shops in Rancho this weekend.  I suspect the % of firearm owners here is probably much higher than whatever statistics they published from surveys.

Lastly, I took the Oath of Citizenship where I swore "I will support and defend the Constitution".  If you took this oath but you don't believe in or uphold the Constitution and the Founding Principals, then you lied.
I remember when Target stopped selling guns in California back in the 90s they had a huge blow out sale. Something like 70% off all guns and ammo.  You could get a shotgun at Target for $35. Alas I got there too late when the shelves were almost bare. Too bad Dicks already doesn't sell guns in CA, otherwise there should be some great discounts coming up.

I too swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And I meant what I swore.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 05:43:58 PM
Dicks Sporting Goods stopped selling AR-15' back in 2012, only the small number of Field and Stream stores continued to carry them since.  To compare there are over 600 Dicks Sporting Goods (not all carry firearms), and only 35 Field and Stream stores.  Walmart stopped selling AR-15's in 2015 and all firearms in CA in 2003.  In other States Walmart had stopped selling handguns except Alaska.  Firearms is a low margin and high liability item, it's more profitable to sell ammo.

Facebook and social media has effectively put people in their own bubbles where they only see conforming political/ideological/religious views.  These software are products of Aspergers living in Happy Aspie Land (Silicon Valley) pushing their lifestyle on rest of us.  Some of you only know me as an IT worker in Irvine.  I spent a couple years working as a MRO consultant in heavy industry across US and Canada, implementing just in time inventory systems.  The job enabled me to travel and work across 20-30 states and 5 Canadian provinces.  I've stood in Valley Forge in Penn, dined at Amish restaurant in Ohio, and stood knee deep in snow at Fort Mac & remote camps in Northern Alberta (oil sands).

I've learned through my travels that the country is a diverse place and people use words and terms like "white flight" differently.  This makes communication rather interesting.  If you're talking to someone from Korea who use "hand phone" for cell phone and "black box' for dash cam, the English words may differ but they mean the same thing and it's not hard to communicate on same level.  But if you're talking to someone in the US with different cultural/political ideology and definition of a word or term, sometimes you have to ask what does <insert word> mean to you.  Like "bless your heart" has different meaning in certain areas.

I recall dining at the cafeteria in Southern factory, the employees were curious about Californians and asked me various questions.  The topic of firearms came up and everyone (except me) at the table pulled out their carry cards.  Fast forward to last month, I was having lunch with former Asian coworkers in Irvine, and one Taiwanese guy at table asked what was required to purchase firearm in the US.  To my surprise Everyone (except that guy) pulled out their CA firearm safety cert card, including the Japanese girl who sat across from me.  I later found out that she owns 3 pistols.  Four of us are carpooling to Bass Pro Shops in Rancho this weekend.  I suspect the % of firearm owners here is probably much higher than whatever statistics they published from surveys.

Lastly, I took the Oath of Citizenship where I swore "I will support and defend the Constitution".  If you took this oath but you don't believe in or uphold the Constitution and the Founding Principals, then you lied.
I remember when Target stopped selling guns in California back in the 90s they had a huge blow out sale. Something like 70% off all guns and ammo.  You could get a shotgun at Target for $35. Alas I got there too late when the shelves were almost bare. Too bad Dicks already doesn't sell guns in CA, otherwise there should be some great discounts coming up.

I too swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And I meant what I swore.

Then you should be all for gun control because Supreme Court says that gun control is constitutional!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 28, 2018, 05:50:13 PM
Dicks Sporting Goods stopped selling AR-15' back in 2012, only the small number of Field and Stream stores continued to carry them since.  To compare there are over 600 Dicks Sporting Goods (not all carry firearms), and only 35 Field and Stream stores.  Walmart stopped selling AR-15's in 2015 and all firearms in CA in 2003.  In other States Walmart had stopped selling handguns except Alaska.  Firearms is a low margin and high liability item, it's more profitable to sell ammo.

Facebook and social media has effectively put people in their own bubbles where they only see conforming political/ideological/religious views.  These software are products of Aspergers living in Happy Aspie Land (Silicon Valley) pushing their lifestyle on rest of us.  Some of you only know me as an IT worker in Irvine.  I spent a couple years working as a MRO consultant in heavy industry across US and Canada, implementing just in time inventory systems.  The job enabled me to travel and work across 20-30 states and 5 Canadian provinces.  I've stood in Valley Forge in Penn, dined at Amish restaurant in Ohio, and stood knee deep in snow at Fort Mac & remote camps in Northern Alberta (oil sands).

I've learned through my travels that the country is a diverse place and people use words and terms like "white flight" differently.  This makes communication rather interesting.  If you're talking to someone from Korea who use "hand phone" for cell phone and "black box' for dash cam, the English words may differ but they mean the same thing and it's not hard to communicate on same level.  But if you're talking to someone in the US with different cultural/political ideology and definition of a word or term, sometimes you have to ask what does <insert word> mean to you.  Like "bless your heart" has different meaning in certain areas.

I recall dining at the cafeteria in Southern factory, the employees were curious about Californians and asked me various questions.  The topic of firearms came up and everyone (except me) at the table pulled out their carry cards.  Fast forward to last month, I was having lunch with former Asian coworkers in Irvine, and one Taiwanese guy at table asked what was required to purchase firearm in the US.  To my surprise Everyone (except that guy) pulled out their CA firearm safety cert card, including the Japanese girl who sat across from me.  I later found out that she owns 3 pistols.  Four of us are carpooling to Bass Pro Shops in Rancho this weekend.  I suspect the % of firearm owners here is probably much higher than whatever statistics they published from surveys.

Lastly, I took the Oath of Citizenship where I swore "I will support and defend the Constitution".  If you took this oath but you don't believe in or uphold the Constitution and the Founding Principals, then you lied.
I remember when Target stopped selling guns in California back in the 90s they had a huge blow out sale. Something like 70% off all guns and ammo.  You could get a shotgun at Target for $35. Alas I got there too late when the shelves were almost bare. Too bad Dicks already doesn't sell guns in CA, otherwise there should be some great discounts coming up.

I too swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And I meant what I swore.

Then you should be all for gun control because Supreme Court says that gun control is constitutional!
I do believe in gun control. Putting five rounds in the ten ring at 300 yds, that is good gun control.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 06:04:08 PM

I do believe in gun control. Putting five rounds in the ten ring at 300 yds, that is good gun control.

So I guess you are not for upholding the Constitution.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on February 28, 2018, 06:10:37 PM
@momopi - I really like your posts that have a lot of thought behind them. 

But I think we are making the same mistake here that we accuse radical adherents of  Islam of making - taking a literal interpretation of their holy text from thousands of years ago

Apples and oranges yes

But a literal interpretation of the constitution from its original context and setting would also involve limiting firearm ownership  to maybe muskets ?  then the gun lovers could own all the muskets they wanted, while other rest of us were free to use them as walking sticks

And dont forget the founding fathers also owned slaves - we dont ding them for it because it was a different cultural context back then when people of color were property to be owned and disposed off at will
Ya know, this past Sunday the PRC changed their constitution to make supreme leader Xi supreme leader for life. I had no idea our Constitution was so similar to Red China's.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 28, 2018, 07:16:08 PM
This is just a bunch of worthless virtue signaling garbage.  Just like last time, not much will change.  This corporate jump on the bandwagon will loose steam again.  All a bunch of PR/BS, "but this time we really mean it!"  LOL!!  Lets see if any of this stands in 6 months.

Dick's banned assault rifles after the Newtown school shooting — and later reversed the decision

Dick's Sporting Goods said Wednesday it would stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores.
The chain also banned the weapons after the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
Dick's ultimately started selling the weapons again, however.
Dick's says the ban is permanent this time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 07:21:06 PM
This is just a bunch of worthless virtue signaling garbage.  Just like last time, not much will change.  This corporate jump on the bandwagon will loose steam again.  All a bunch of PR/BS, "but this time we really mean it!"  LOL!!  Lets see if any of this stands in 6 months.

Dick's banned assault rifles after the Newtown school shooting — and later reversed the decision

Dick's Sporting Goods said Wednesday it would stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores.
The chain also banned the weapons after the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
Dick's ultimately started selling the weapons again, however.
Dick's says the ban is permanent this time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2)

Wait...I thought PR was great when companies were giving small one-time bonuses to employees.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 28, 2018, 07:31:03 PM
1. Trump: Take guns early without going to court first.
2. Trump shuts down Scalise concealed cary push at televised bipartisan group.
3. Trump tells senators “Your afraid of the NRA”
4. Trump tells US governors, “Don’t worry about the NRA”
5. Trump: school safety is a priority

Is this a complete 360% change? Trump knows that public opinion regarding gun control. (70% in favor)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 28, 2018, 07:49:34 PM
This is just a bunch of worthless virtue signaling garbage.  Just like last time, not much will change.  This corporate jump on the bandwagon will loose steam again.  All a bunch of PR/BS, "but this time we really mean it!"  LOL!!  Lets see if any of this stands in 6 months.

Dick's banned assault rifles after the Newtown school shooting — and later reversed the decision

Dick's Sporting Goods said Wednesday it would stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores.
The chain also banned the weapons after the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
Dick's ultimately started selling the weapons again, however.
Dick's says the ban is permanent this time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2)

They won’t take back the bonuses and raises.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on February 28, 2018, 07:51:59 PM
This is just a bunch of worthless virtue signaling garbage.  Just like last time, not much will change.  This corporate jump on the bandwagon will loose steam again.  All a bunch of PR/BS, "but this time we really mean it!"  LOL!!  Lets see if any of this stands in 6 months.

Dick's banned assault rifles after the Newtown school shooting — and later reversed the decision

Dick's Sporting Goods said Wednesday it would stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores.
The chain also banned the weapons after the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
Dick's ultimately started selling the weapons again, however.
Dick's says the ban is permanent this time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2)

They won’t take back the bonuses and raises.

They will just speed up automation and fire the employees.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 08:35:05 PM
@momopi - I really like your posts that have a lot of thought behind them. 

But I think we are making the same mistake here that we accuse radical adherents of  Islam of making - taking a literal interpretation of their holy text from thousands of years ago

Apples and oranges yes

But a literal interpretation of the constitution from its original context and setting would also involve limiting firearm ownership  to maybe muskets ?  then the gun lovers could own all the muskets they wanted, while other rest of us were free to use them as walking sticks

And dont forget the founding fathers also owned slaves - we dont ding them for it because it was a different cultural context back then when people of color were property to be owned and disposed off at will
Ya know, this past Sunday the PRC changed their constitution to make supreme leader Xi supreme leader for life. I had no idea our Constitution was so similar to Red China's.

Then you should be really really worried about the autocratic tendencies of our Rambo president  ( sorry , cult leader )
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 08:39:35 PM
This series of posts re: “ nothing has changed “ is very reminiscent of people dismissing news they don’t like as “fake news”  , a lasting legacy of 2016 campaign ...

And this is precisely why , even in February 2018, Sean Hannity is leading his show w a feature on Hillary Clinton , LOL !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 08:51:44 PM
Too amusing not to post here ..,

NRA Reduces Gun Injuries For These Three Days Every Year, Research Shows

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-02-28/for-these-three-days-nra-reduces-gun-injuries-research-shows?__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Ready2Downsize on February 28, 2018, 09:01:20 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on February 28, 2018, 09:10:19 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.

Yeah everything was fine when it was pro trump “winning “ all the time .. the good old days , I miss them too !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Ready2Downsize on February 28, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.

Yeah everything was fine when it was pro trump “winning “ all the time .. the good old days , I miss them too !

No, actually it wasn't. It was a good board when it was Talk IRVINE.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on February 28, 2018, 10:23:02 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.

Yeah everything was fine when it was pro trump “winning “ all the time .. the good old days , I miss them too !

No, actually it wasn't. It was a good board when it was Talk IRVINE.

I “hope” you change your mind.  ;)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on March 01, 2018, 03:25:17 AM
1. Trump: Take guns early without going to court first.
2. Trump shuts down Scalise concealed cary push at televised bipartisan group.
3. Trump tells senators “Your afraid of the NRA”
4. Trump tells US governors, “Don’t worry about the NRA”
5. Trump: school safety is a priority

Is this a complete 360% change? Trump knows that public opinion regarding gun control. (70% in favor)

I think the media has been painting a very dishonest picture of Trump, so anything looks like a 360 degree change when you actually see what's going on rather than tiny clips.

It's kinda  ironic because Trump does have a lot of legit gaffs and things to criticize, but the media still feels the need to exaggerate and distort.

Republicans will likely turn on him once they realize he's not the same guy that their news outlets advertise, either..
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on March 01, 2018, 03:29:49 AM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.
Remove a couple of trolls like fortune11 and his cheerleader and it gets better, quickly.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 01, 2018, 05:23:57 AM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.
Remove a couple of trolls like fortune11 and his cheerleader and it gets better, quickly.

hey bud -- what exactly is your contribution to this forum  besides foaming-at-the-mouth half the time ?

maybe time to get some serious therapy to treat your anger issues.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: bones on March 01, 2018, 07:49:35 AM
The millennial pink is supposed to be happy and calming. Guess it didn’t work on this thread.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on March 01, 2018, 09:28:48 AM
I remember when Target stopped selling guns in California back in the 90s they had a huge blow out sale. Something like 70% off all guns and ammo.  You could get a shotgun at Target for $35. Alas I got there too late when the shelves were almost bare. Too bad Dicks already doesn't sell guns in CA, otherwise there should be some great discounts coming up.
I too swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And I meant what I swore.

Dicks Sporting Goods in CA does sell firearms, but not at all locations.  Locally the Huntington Beach (near Old World Village) and Cerritos Mall locations carry firearms and ammunition.  They do not carry semi-auto center-fire rifles.

I shop at the Cerritos location, the fishing/hunting section is upstairs on 2F.  Please remember to take your purchases out to the parking lot to your car and not inside the mall.



Interpretation of the Constitution is pretty fluid...and Founding Principles are not part of the Constitution.

Founding Principals is represented by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  For example, individual liberty by Amendments 1-3, Private property by Amendment 4, and limits to government power by Constitutional articles.  But yes, the ultimate authority is the Supreme Court and that's way above my pay-grade.

What I'm concerned about is more mundane, like the consequence of growing political divide.  I foresee a future where if you're in a car accident, someone passing by might eyeball your political-ideological bumper sticker and decide not to call 911, because they think you're better off bleeding to death.

It's also concerning that everything you post on social media (facebook) or even text messages are screened and archived.  Your potential employer, government, law enforcement, and people from "the other ideology" all might use this data against you.  On my FB account I've already scrubbed most controversial content.  You'd find Korean Drama posts and profile picture of a young Korean actress (Shin Min-A).
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 01, 2018, 11:48:27 AM
What I'm concerned about is more mundane, like the consequence of growing political divide.  I foresee a future where if you're in a car accident, someone passing by might eyeball your political-ideological bumper sticker and decide not to call 911, because they think you're better off bleeding to death.

It's also concerning that everything you post on social media (facebook) or even text messages are screened and archived.  Your potential employer, government, law enforcement, and people from "the other ideology" all might use this data against you.  On my FB account I've already scrubbed most controversial content.  You'd find Korean Drama posts and profile picture of a young Korean actress (Shin Min-A).

It's already being done.  Good luck having conservative leanings in places like Silicon Valley or college campuses these days.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 01, 2018, 12:17:45 PM
What I'm concerned about is more mundane, like the consequence of growing political divide.  I foresee a future where if you're in a car accident, someone passing by might eyeball your political-ideological bumper sticker and decide not to call 911, because they think you're better off bleeding to death.

It's also concerning that everything you post on social media (facebook) or even text messages are screened and archived.  Your potential employer, government, law enforcement, and people from "the other ideology" all might use this data against you.  On my FB account I've already scrubbed most controversial content.  You'd find Korean Drama posts and profile picture of a young Korean actress (Shin Min-A).

It's already being done.  Good luck having conservative leanings in places like Silicon Valley or college campuses these days.

/eyeroll
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on March 01, 2018, 12:24:41 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 01, 2018, 12:32:00 PM
It's not the NRA's fault that mental people want to use their products to kill people. If a mental person bought a Toyota Camry and then drove it thru the Santa Monica board walk and running over 100 people, is it the NTSB's or NHTSA's fault?  Should we raise the minimum vehicle purchase age as well?

NTSB doesn't represent car makers...they set up standards for car makers to meet and calls them out for not meeting them.  They don't fight regulations and laws that make cars safer.  Organizations like NTSB are why motor vehicle deaths has significantly dropped in the last 50 years.   In fact, car makers are make their product now to to reduce most accidents by adding AI and self-driving mechanisms.   Still, drivers need to be licensed and insured while we need to register our cars every year.  Government also mandates a number of safety standards in cars and limit the modification and type of engines that are "street legal."

NRA is actively arguing to make guns more dangerous and available to more people.   They employ fear/scare tactics to promote the sell of arms/guns and then fight every effort to regulate guns and attack those who oppose them as tyrants and anti-liberty.

We have  not even gotten to the ridiculousness of comparing the cost v benefit analysis of a car versus a gun in modern society.

Reminder:

Quote
In March of 2000, the White House signed a “historic agreement” with gun manufacturer Smith and Wesson, part of then-president Bill Clinton’s “comprehensive efforts to reduce gun violence in America.”

Smith and Wesson, which changed its name to American Outdoor Brands in 2016, had pledged a host of changes to the way that it made and sold guns. It promised not to make guns that could accept ammunition magazines with more than 10 rounds. It would develop new “smart gun” technology that could only be fired by owners. And it would cut ties with gun dealers who sold weapons that were disproportionately used in crimes. Eighteen years later, many of those promises echo new proposals to curb gun violence after a Parkland, Florida, teenager massacred 17—using an American Outdoor Brands semi-automatic assault rifle.

Quote
Three days after the company’s agreement with lawmakers, the National Rifle Association declared Smith and Wesson a “sellout,” for its “craven act of self-interest,” and took aim at the company’s British ownership. (Started in the US in the 1800s, Smith & Wesson was purchased by a British plumbing supplies company in 1987).

Smith and Wesson is the “first to run up the white flag of surrender and run behind the Clinton-Gore lines, leaving its competitors in the U.S. firearms industry to carry on the fight for the Second Amendment,” the NRA said. “Of course, there is no Second Amendment in Britain, where subjects are barred from owning handguns and many long guns.”

https://qz.com/1215914/parkland-florida-school-shooting-smith-and-wesson-was-a-leader-in-gun-safety-until-the-nra-stepped-in/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on March 01, 2018, 02:19:06 PM
I'm as strong of a 2A Supporter as they come, and am happy that Dicks and WalMart took the steps that they did. I'd rather have a private company act than be compelled by government mandate. The problem here is that they may run into an age discrimination suit. OK to restrict sales if it's back by law, but not OK in other cases. Movie tickets come to mind as it's possible for a theater to restrict the sales of an NC-17 film to minors. We'll see.

How about a little gasoline on the fire? Did we know that The Tang Menace was a CCW holder? I didn't until today. All this rubbish about how President Tourette Syndrome was going to confiscate first, and due process second really doesn't seem to hold water. Methinks he was playing to the room.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/trump-guns-concealed-carry-430824 (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/trump-guns-concealed-carry-430824)

My .02c

SGIP
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 01, 2018, 03:22:49 PM
I'm as strong of a 2A Supporter as they come, and am happy that Dicks and WalMart took the steps that they did. I'd rather have a private company act than be compelled by government mandate. The problem here is that they may run into an age discrimination suit. OK to restrict sales if it's back by law, but not OK in other cases. Movie tickets come to mind as it's possible for a theater to restrict the sales of an NC-17 film to minors. We'll see.

How about a little gasoline on the fire? Did we know that The Tang Menace was a CCW holder? I didn't until today. All this rubbish about how President Tourette Syndrome was going to confiscate first, and due process second really doesn't seem to hold water. Methinks he was playing to the room.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/trump-guns-concealed-carry-430824 (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/trump-guns-concealed-carry-430824)

My .02c

SGIP

You give him a lot of credit for being smart and prepared
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 02, 2018, 09:06:08 AM
Shooting at Central Michigan University

“2 dead, gunman at large after shooting at Central Michigan University

Two people were fatally shot Friday after a gunman opened fire at Campbell Hall dormitory at Central Michigan University, campus police said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/02/us/central-michigan-university-shots-fired/index.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 02, 2018, 09:17:33 AM
Should we place metal detectors at college campus?
Fence in the campus with the temporary fences.

Idk (I don’t know) but something should be done.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 02, 2018, 09:24:03 AM
Should we place metal detectors at college campus?
Fence in the campus with the temporary fences.

Idk (I don’t know) but something should be done.

Arm everyone with a suicide vest.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 02, 2018, 09:40:40 AM
Shooting at Central Michigan University

“2 dead, gunman at large after shooting at Central Michigan University

Two people were fatally shot Friday after a gunman opened fire at Campbell Hall dormitory at Central Michigan University, campus police said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/02/us/central-michigan-university-shots-fired/index.html

Say what! The guy shot his own parents when they came to pick the guy up.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on March 02, 2018, 01:44:22 PM
So when has there been a mass school shooting in Orange County? I think there has been one but I can't remember where nor does my Google-Fu work.

What areas of the nation do these not occur?

What is different about them because I think that's what we have to focus on.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 05, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
Sweeping changes with lasting effect.....(or virtue signalling for PR purposes only, that shareholders must now hold the bag for.)

Only 13 people used that Delta NRA discount

The decision angered Georgia Republicans, who stripped an exemption for jet fuel out of a tax bill that was signed into law on Friday.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/02/news/companies/delta-nra-discount-13-tickets/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/02/news/companies/delta-nra-discount-13-tickets/index.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on March 06, 2018, 12:44:00 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.

Yeah everything was fine when it was pro trump “winning “ all the time .. the good old days , I miss them too !

No, actually it wasn't. It was a good board when it was Talk IRVINE.

You have to realize it's not their fault.  They are suffering from a disease called Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) that doesn't allow them to post about any topic without somehow tying it to Trump.

At first, I didn't think this disease was real.  I saw the toll it took on Perspective during the election, but I thought it was just a personal tick isolated to him.  Now after intensive study on Facebook, I realize millions of Americans are afflicted by this disease.  They can't help but engage in anti-Trump posting on social media every chance they get.  I think it ties into their feelings of loss of empowerment.

Anybody that presents a logical argument to those suffering from TDS triggers over-the-top reactions and accusations of racism.  It's really very sad, and we must have the utmost of sympathy for their condition.  They didn't ask for this disease and they can't control it.  So we need to be there for them throughout the next 7 years of MAGA.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 07, 2018, 02:41:33 PM
Scream All you want, I told you, nothing will change.  March on.

Here Are the Eight Miami GOP Dirtbags Who Just Voted Down Assault Weapon Ban

Perhaps no piece of news illustrates how depraved and broken the Florida political system is than what just went down in Tallahassee. Just six days after Nikolas Cruz used an AR-15 assault rifle to murder 14 teenagers and three adults at a high school in Parkland, the Florida House of Representatives voted down a measure to ban purchases of assault rifles and large-capacity magazines statewide.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-house-votes-down-assault-rifle-ban-after-parkland-10106286 (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-house-votes-down-assault-rifle-ban-after-parkland-10106286)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 07, 2018, 03:28:13 PM
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 07, 2018, 03:36:17 PM
Florida a very safe place to visit?

Scream All you want, I told you, nothing will change.  March on.

Here Are the Eight Miami GOP Dirtbags Who Just Voted Down Assault Weapon Ban

Perhaps no piece of news illustrates how depraved and broken the Florida political system is than what just went down in Tallahassee. Just six days after Nikolas Cruz used an AR-15 assault rifle to murder 14 teenagers and three adults at a high school in Parkland, the Florida House of Representatives voted down a measure to ban purchases of assault rifles and large-capacity magazines statewide.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-house-votes-down-assault-rifle-ban-after-parkland-10106286 (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-house-votes-down-assault-rifle-ban-after-parkland-10106286)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 07, 2018, 03:54:26 PM
My point is, if they could not get this passed there, just weeks after the tragedy, then hopes of a national bill are fanciful...nothing will change. Maybe little gives here and there but no bans or gun grabs will come of this.  It will fade till the next one.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on March 07, 2018, 03:59:34 PM
This is what is commonly referred to as An Inconvenient Truth:

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-to-prevent-another-one/ (http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-to-prevent-another-one/)

Read at your own peril.

Or.. if you prefer - the "money quotes"

The FBI says that during the last six years of the ban, firearms were used to kill 54,468 people, 2,483 of whom were killed with a rifle. During the first six years after the ban — with 19 million more guns on the street — the FBI says firearms were used to kill 58,065 people, 2,432 of whom were killed with a rifle.

What? More people were killed with a rifle during the ban than after the ban? Could it be the assault ban made no difference to homicide by rifle? Why, yes, yes it could. And with 19 million more guns on the street after the ban, there were only 3,597 additional firearms homicides? Could it be that limiting guns had very little impact on limiting total firearms homicides? Why, yes, yes it could.



My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 07, 2018, 04:18:20 PM
My point is, if they could not get this passes there, just weeks after the tragedy, then hopes of a national bill are fanciful...nothing will change. Maybe little gives here and there but no bans or gun grabs will come of this.  It will fade till the next one.

No...Florida is like the hardest place to get gun control passed.   

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/03/05/economy/lobbyist-behind-floridas-pro-gun-policies
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 07, 2018, 08:05:40 PM
Went back five recent pages worth of posts and stopped. Talk IRVINE has become Talk TRUMP or Talk ANTI TRUMP.

What a shame.

Yeah everything was fine when it was pro trump “winning “ all the time .. the good old days , I miss them too !

No, actually it wasn't. It was a good board when it was Talk IRVINE.

You have to realize it's not their fault.  They are suffering from a disease called Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) that doesn't allow them to post about any topic without somehow tying it to Trump.

At first, I didn't think this disease was real.  I saw the toll it took on Perspective during the election, but I thought it was just a personal tick isolated to him.  Now after intensive study on Facebook, I realize millions of Americans are afflicted by this disease.  They can't help but engage in anti-Trump posting on social media every chance they get.  I think it ties into their feelings of loss of empowerment.

Anybody that presents a logical argument to those suffering from TDS triggers over-the-top reactions and accusations of racism.  It's really very sad, and we must have the utmost of sympathy for their condition.  They didn't ask for this disease and they can't control it.  So we need to be there for them throughout the next 7 years of MAGA.

LOL .. I haven't browsed this thread in a while but came across this and bingo ... wonder why it took this long for someone to post this intelligent " meme " or comment which is by the way , a fairly common occurrence on all the fake news / right wing sites / drudge etc.   for last two years ...

Bravo , now you can all pat each other on the back and claim that you've owned the libs !

every losing argument boils down to this - hey we won so ....   whatever whatever 

maybe best to wait till after the midterms to continue this chest thumping.  lets all pump some iron in the meantime

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 07, 2018, 08:11:10 PM
Hey , is this the same state of Florida we were talking about , or is this in a different country ? Someone enlighten us rubes please

    
Defying NRA, Florida legislature passes new rules to impose waiting period, raise purchasing age for long guns


The Florida House bill imposes a three-day waiting period for most purchases of long guns and raises the minimum age for purchasing those weapons to 21. It also provides nearly $100 million to improve school security and $67 million to fund a new sheriff program that would allow school districts to voluntarily train and arm employees who do not exclusively teach in the classroom.

The response to the Feb. 14 shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School that left 17 dead signaled a major shift for a state known as a legal laboratory for gun rights activists. It could become a blueprint for other states looking at new measures to address mass shootings.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 07, 2018, 09:41:11 PM
Tiny gimees not sweeping changes. Nothing to see here, move along.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 07, 2018, 09:48:44 PM
Tiny gimees not sweeping changes. Nothing to see here, move along.

yup, we get it --- this is totally like rowing a boat in a rapid river and seeing the water gradually get rough and rougher and rougher ... but hey nothing to see here  till your little dinghy falls right off the cliff 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 07, 2018, 09:59:06 PM
More feel good legislation that will change nothing but will give cover to those who want it, in order to claim they “care”, but will accomplish nothing, will change nothing and will soon be forgotten....March on.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 07, 2018, 10:11:14 PM
Why is it so hard for people to admit they are wrong :)

I can easily say “ I told you so”  many weeks ago when I said “this time is different”  but whatever has happened so far , even if “small”  in your opinion, is magnitudes bigger than anything that happened after similar events over the last 10 years . Especially after sandy hook . And it is not even  finished yet .

And this is happening with a NRA-hostage republican party’s peak of the power in White House , senate and House to boot !

And yet it is the kids and millennials who are deemed immature and unworthy of dealing w logic ...
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 07, 2018, 10:19:07 PM
An assault weapons ban is the goal, anything short is failure to #neveragain. When that happens (and it won’t) I’ll admit I was wrong, I won’t have to. Has as much chance of success as #bringbackourgirls.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on March 08, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
So when has there been a mass school shooting in Orange County? I think there has been one but I can't remember where nor does my Google-Fu work.

What areas of the nation do these not occur?

What is different about them because I think that's what we have to focus on.

So no one else knows the answer either?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 08, 2018, 09:59:06 AM
Why is it so hard for people to admit they are wrong :)

I can easily say “ I told you so”  many weeks ago when I said “this time is different”  but whatever has happened so far , even if “small”  in your opinion, is magnitudes bigger than anything that happened after similar events over the last 10 years . Especially after sandy hook . And it is not even  finished yet .

And this is happening with a NRA-hostage republican party’s peak of the power in White House , senate and House to boot !

And yet it is the kids and millennials who are deemed immature and unworthy of dealing w logic ...

Not true. It's not different this time. Sandy Hooke had a very similar national reaction that led to the same incremental but useless legislation and the real goal of assault weapons bans were never achieved...same as this incident.  The same outcome will be achieved. Failure.

How gun laws have changed in the 5 years since Sandy Hook

The state level is where the majority of the action on gun legislation has happened in the past five years. All told, since Sandy Hook, there have been 210 laws enacted to strengthen gun safety, according to the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

That includes background check laws in four states that didn't have them before and expansions of existing background check laws in seven others, bringing the total to 18 states and the District of Columbia with background checks in place, according to the center.

The 2013 failures of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Manchin-Toomey Amendment stand out as the two biggest blows to federal gun control legislation, but gun rights advocates have celebrated other legislative wins since the Sandy Hook shooting as well.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/gun-laws-changed-years-sandy-hook/story?id=51668726 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/gun-laws-changed-years-sandy-hook/story?id=51668726)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on March 08, 2018, 12:45:51 PM
So when has there been a mass school shooting in Orange County? I think there has been one but I can't remember where nor does my Google-Fu work.

What areas of the nation do these not occur?

What is different about them because I think that's what we have to focus on.

So no one else knows the answer either?

Cal State Fullerton had a shooting.

California State University, Fullerton massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fullerton_massacre

Quote
The California State University, Fullerton massacre was an incident of mass murder committed by a custodian, Edward Charles Allaway, on July 12, 1976, at California State University, Fullerton, in Fullerton, California, United States.[1] It was the worst mass murder in Orange County until the 2011 Seal Beach shooting, in which eight people died.[2]

The gunman, 37-year-old Edward Charles Allaway, was a custodian at the university's library. Armed with a semi-automatic rifle he purchased at a Buena Park Kmart, Allaway killed seven people and injured two others in the library's first-floor lobby and at the building's Instructional Media Center (IMC), located in the basement.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 08, 2018, 02:07:12 PM
That is a reach. Are you throwing a pebble across the ocean?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 14, 2018, 12:17:55 PM
Where'd the fish go?...Now what?

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on March 15, 2018, 10:28:22 AM
So yesterday they had school walkouts to protest school shootings, and yet...

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

Quote
The deadly school shooting this month in Parkland, Florida, has ignited national outrage and calls for action on gun reform. But while certain policies may help decrease gun violence in general, it’s unlikely that any of them will prevent mass school shootings, according to James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern.

Since 1996, there have been 16 multiple victim shootings in schools, or incidents involving 4 or more victims and at least 2 deaths by firearms, excluding the assailant.

Of these, 8 are mass shootings, or incidents involving 4 or more deaths, excluding the assailant.

“This is not an epidemic”

Mass school shootings are incredibly rare events. In research publishing later this year, Fox and doctoral student Emma Fridel found that on average, mass murders occur between 20 and 30 times per year, and about one of those incidents on average takes place at a school.

Fridel and Fox used data collected by USA Today, the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Report, Congressional Research Service, Gun Violence Archive, Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries, Mother Jones, Everytown for Gun Safety, and a NYPD report on active shooters.

Their research also finds that shooting incidents involving students have been declining since the 1990s.

Four times the number of children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today, Fox said.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

(https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2018/02/Screen-Shot-2018-02-27-at-1.30.01-PM-1519756226.png?auto=compress%2Cformat&q=90)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on March 15, 2018, 05:13:42 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on March 15, 2018, 05:27:30 PM
Anytime you see people using the word "epidemic" to describe something non-medical, your BS detector should be going off. The Liberal outrage over the gun violence epidemic, the Conservative outrage over the illegal alien crime epidemic, the hysteria over the drug use epidemic in schools, none of these "epidemics" have much basis in fact.

So yesterday they had school walkouts to protest school shootings, and yet...

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

Quote
The deadly school shooting this month in Parkland, Florida, has ignited national outrage and calls for action on gun reform. But while certain policies may help decrease gun violence in general, it’s unlikely that any of them will prevent mass school shootings, according to James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern.

Since 1996, there have been 16 multiple victim shootings in schools, or incidents involving 4 or more victims and at least 2 deaths by firearms, excluding the assailant.

Of these, 8 are mass shootings, or incidents involving 4 or more deaths, excluding the assailant.

“This is not an epidemic”

Mass school shootings are incredibly rare events. In research publishing later this year, Fox and doctoral student Emma Fridel found that on average, mass murders occur between 20 and 30 times per year, and about one of those incidents on average takes place at a school.

Fridel and Fox used data collected by USA Today, the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Report, Congressional Research Service, Gun Violence Archive, Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries, Mother Jones, Everytown for Gun Safety, and a NYPD report on active shooters.

Their research also finds that shooting incidents involving students have been declining since the 1990s.

Four times the number of children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today, Fox said.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

(https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2018/02/Screen-Shot-2018-02-27-at-1.30.01-PM-1519756226.png?auto=compress%2Cformat&q=90)


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 15, 2018, 09:13:42 PM

Why the NRA Stumbled in Gun-Crazed Florida: Francis Wilkinson

By Francis Wilkinson
(Bloomberg View) -- President Donald Trump made his
predictable retreat from conflict with the National Rifle
Association this week. He had promised to take on the gun lobby
amid loose talk of better background checks and an increase in
the age limit for purchasing firearms. But, to no one's
surprise, he quickly backed down, after a White House visit from
the NRA.

Yes, once again, the familiar cycle of gun violence and
promises of action yielded to capitulation. Yet this time
something was different. Not in Washington, but in Florida,
where last week gun-safety activists proved that they could out-
muscle the NRA not just in blue states, or on the most extreme
proposals in red states, but on central issues on the NRA’s home
court.


Florida Governor Rick Scott, a previously reliable devotee
of the NRA, with an A+ rating from the group, signed legislation
raising the age to purchase all firearms from 18 to 21. In
addition, the law bans the sale and possession of bump stocks,
which enable semi-automatic rifles to mimic automatic weapons.
It imposes a three-day waiting period on most long-gun
purchases. It establishes a red-flag process to empower local
law-enforcement officials to petition a court to remove guns
from an individual showing warning signs of violence.
Not everyone from the gun-regulation side recognized the
seismic victory. Miami Beach Mayor Philip Levine, a Democratic
candidate for governor, was disappointed that the legislature
failed to pass an assault-weapons ban and universal background
checks. He said the law "falls short of the public demands set
by the majority of Floridians and the student survivors" of the
Feb. 14 shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas school. 
So it does, and in a rational world, Levine’s
disappointment would be justified. But gun politics is a
function of raw power, not reason. The gun regulation forces
have never lacked strong arguments. What they’ve lacked is a
large number of people willing to invest their time and energy
and votes in demanding safer regulation. 
Florida, where students and activists bore down on the
Legislature and last week won very real concessions, is the most
powerful evidence that the cavalry may finally be saddling up.
The state is home to some of the most depraved, legally
sanctioned gunplay in America. A breathtaking 2012 series by the
Tampa Bay Times on the state’s Stand Your Ground law depicted
dozens of shootings in which the killer went free merely by
claiming, in full accord with the law, that he felt “threatened”
in some way before opening fire.
“One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail,”
the paper reported. “Another shot a man as he lay on the ground.
Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In
nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants
initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their
victim — and still went free.”
It was in Florida that George Zimmerman gunned down Trayvon
Martin in 2012 as the unarmed teenager was walking home.
Zimmerman, who also allegedly threatened both his wife and
girlfriend with a gun, walked free. Later, he listed for sale
the weapon he used to kill Martin, a Kel-Tec PF-9 handgun. “I am
honored and humbled to announce the sale of an American Firearm
Icon," he wrote.

In Florida, the NRA has reigned supreme, and human life has
been commensurately devalued. The sight of Republicans in
Tallahassee turning on the gun lobby must’ve been quite a shock
at NRA headquarters, which vigorously opposed the new law and
has filed what appears to be a symbolic lawsuit against the age
limit.
The NRA has weathered many previous threats, of course. The
failure of Congress to correct even the most obvious and
egregious flaw in U.S. gun regulation, the background check
loophole, which enables pretty much anyone who wants to evade a
background check to do so, has been the high-water mark of
cynicism since even before the 2012 massacre of schoolchildren
and teachers in Newtown, Connecticut.
That federal loophole has no legal, moral, civic,
intellectual or other rationale. The NRA makes no argument in
its behalf. The loophole exists simply because the NRA demands
it.


The NRA’s success depends on such displays of political
dominance, not on the Second Amendment or legal arguments about
its purview. As its aging, white, male membership grows more
fearful in a changing nation, the group has come to view
democratic debate as a losing proposition.

"We are locked in a struggle with powerful forces in this
country who will do anything to destroy the Second Amendment,”
Richard Venola, a former editor of Guns & Ammo, told the New
York Times in 2014. “The time for ceding some rational points is
gone."

To get through a crisis, the NRA will feign interest in
reforms. “
If we want to prevent future atrocities, we must look
for solutions that keep guns out of the hands of those who are a
danger to themselves or others, while protecting the rights of
law-abiding Americans," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of
the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action.
But the NRA resolutely opposes any action to restrict
convenient access to military-grade firepower by those who are a
danger to themselves and others. The group has previously
described red-flag laws to restrict access by such people as a
“campaign of shame against gun owners.”
While blue states continue to adopt an aggressive regime of
gun regulation, in Washington and red states neither court-
sanctioned restrictions on gun rights, nor the overwhelming
evidence that more guns and fewer restrictions lead to more
shootings, has been a match for the NRA. But in Florida last
week, activists overpowered their nemesis.

The Florida law is far from a comprehensive attack on gun
violence. But it’s a key advance in its prerequisite: a
comprehensive attack on the gun lobby.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on March 20, 2018, 10:49:56 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: irvinehomeowner on March 20, 2018, 10:55:02 AM
The shooter had a handgun.

Maybe that was the difference between duty and fear.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 20, 2018, 11:24:53 AM
"Had a very capable school resource officer that also happened to be a S.W.A.T. team member," he said at a news conference. "This is a tough guy who apparently closed in very quickly and took the right kind of action. And I think while it's still tragic, he may have saved other people's lives."

https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/maryland-high-school-lockdown-shooting-incident-contained-school/story%3fid=53871080



Another school shooting in Maryland!

Student gunman dies after Maryland school shooting; two other students injured

This time, the SRO assigned to the school, engaged the suspect and fired one round, killing the student suspect.  THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT.

"Cameron said there was “no question” the situation would have been worse if the SRO had not engaged the shooter in an interview with The Post. He said the officer pursued the shooter down the hallway and each fired a single shot at each other, before the incident ended. The shooter had a handgun."



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/maryland-authorities-investigating-shooting-at-high-school/2018/03/20/4deeadee-2c39-11e8-8ad6-fbc50284fce8_story.html?utm_term=.d2401f723838
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on March 20, 2018, 11:39:03 AM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 20, 2018, 11:56:00 AM
Lay down Tuco...

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on March 20, 2018, 12:54:48 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 20, 2018, 01:14:21 PM
I think the meth had something to do with it.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 08:04:47 AM
Additionally I am gonna say it...that we spend an inordinate amount of time on things that really affect a minuscule percentage of the population.  Let's be honest, the likelihood that your child will be killed in an assault style mass shooting at his or her school is worse that winning the lottery.  I am not discounting the pain and anguish of these families but the 24/7 drumbeat makes it seem that this happens every day of every week in every city and state...it doesn't.  For a kid to be afraid to go to school because he may be massacred is tantamount to me spending my lottery winnings from my eventual win Friday night.  But we will talk about this endlessly just like gender neutral bathrooms (.0001%) of the proliferation  or campus gang rapes (.001%) or nooses in trees on campus (.001%). These things fortunately,  will not touch many, if any of us, in our lifetimes but it's all the rage to talk about...OK fire at will.

This is exactly what I was saying...tons of press makes this seem like a bigger problem than it really is but the data does not bear out the narrative. If you want to save children's lives campaign to ban bicycles or cars or j-walking...those kill more children each year.

Data on mass shootings at school don't live up to the hysteria

How many people have been killed in school shootings in the United States since 1900? The answer is 552, at least according to a comprehensive list compiled by Wikipedia. Assuming this isn't wildly inaccurate, 4.7 people have been killed in school shootings per year in modern American history.

I frequently hear people on social media say, "Do you know how unlikely it is that you'll be killed in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil?" As long as you don't count 9/11, which killed 2,996 people, the odds that you are going to die in an Islamic terrorist attack are extremely low at six people killed per year.

But the same people who say this should recognize that the odds that your elementary, middle, high school, or university student is going to die in a school shooting are even lower.

So, yes, angry young men who shoot up schools are a serious problem. Yet, the idea that they pose the gravest clear and present danger to the safety of America is preposterous. The American public should really be directing its attention to ensuring that we live healthier lives; not worrying about the astronomical odds of being involved in a school shooting. When it comes to tragically preventable deaths, one can make a compelling case that smoking, soft drinks, refined sugars, fast food, processed food, office work, and Netflix are far more dangerous to our well-being than guns or school shooters. Our public policy should be driven by data and facts, not opinions and hysteria.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/data-on-mass-shootings-at-school-dont-live-up-to-the-hysteria (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/data-on-mass-shootings-at-school-dont-live-up-to-the-hysteria)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 08:51:21 AM
Causality...cause and effect.

Donations to the NRA tripled after the Parkland shooting

They also found the number of people contributing in the seven days after the shooting increased almost 500% from the week before.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/28/us/nra-donations-spike-parkland-shooting-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/28/us/nra-donations-spike-parkland-shooting-trnd/index.html)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 29, 2018, 10:35:35 AM
who would have thought that a couple high school students could be such great NRA spokesmen?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on March 29, 2018, 11:20:42 AM
Both the school students and the NRA are just tools for the partisan divide.  Student activists like David Hogg actually hold somewhat moderate positions (at least in public) on gun control, but what the alt-right wants is protesters marching on DC with signs that read "Yes we want to take your guns" and "Safety is more important than Freedom" to galvanize people.  As the left is further dragged toward banning firearms and hate speech, the right naturally assumes the binary opposition stance.

In future what I expect to see is people on the left taking the position that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights are obsolete documents drafted by slave owning white men that is no longer applicable today, and people on the right who takes great offense to such opinions.  As the two parties rotate in and out of power we can expect to see further restrictions placed on 1A/2A.

For States like CA we can expect more strict licensing requirements for semi auto firearms with mandatory buy-back programs like AU, which will actually be a great boon to gun stores as people trade in their semi-auto firearms and purchase replacement manual action firearms.  The government won't have to send police to confiscate from non-compliant owners, they only need to take your kids away to "protective custody" for "their own safety" until you comply.

Laws will be imposed against "hate speech", "fake news", and alike.  If your opinion doesn't conform to politically tolerable limits, you may be found guilty of "condoning terrorism" and face 7 year jail sentence and fine up to $100K+.  Anti-fake news laws will sentence you up to 10 years in prison for creating, distribution, or publishing "fake news" defined to include “news, information, data and reports” that are “wholly or partly false." (does not conform to official data).

Tolerance programs will creep toward "acceptance programs" where students are expected to embrace and not just tolerate.  I'll leave this one up to your imagination.  Students that don't conform will be sent to rehabilitation programs.

And as politicians, if the winds of change shift positions due to demographics or other factors, so will the parties.  But they will retain opposing ideology to maintain the co-dominion.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 11:24:31 AM
You guys really believe this stuff  don’t you :)

That actually should send chills up the entire gun nutso food chain — that kids are having such an impact — they are actually more effective at politics than any of the brain dead pundits  on cable news or the politicians

The fact that Laura ingaham has debased herself to making fun of David Hogg’s  (student leader) college application rejections  tells you all you need to know about how scared these people are of the kids ... yes kids
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 29, 2018, 11:46:36 AM
You guys really believe this stuff  don’t you :)

That actually should send chills up the entire gun nutso food chain — that kids are having such an impact — they are actually more effective at politics than any of the brain dead pundits  on cable news or the politicians

The fact that Laura ingaham has debased herself to making fun of David Hogg’s  (student leader) college application rejections  tells you all you need to know about how scared these people are of the kids ... yes kids

The adolescents ( better term?  :) ) are having such a big impact because the media-owned left have deemed these fresh new faces as the driving force behind gun legislation.  People are tired of seeing Chuck, Nancy, and Schiff 24/7.  What I don't see are some of the 2A supporting adolescent survivors being put on the cover of Time magazine or heading rallies funded by Michael Bloomberg.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 12:04:43 PM
No one is stopping any 2A loving “adolescents “ from holding a million strong march on DC and hundreds of coordinated marches all over the globe .

that will surely get them all the headlines they need

Right ?

Oh , I forgot most teens wouldn’t be caught dead being seen as crazy  gun nuts .  Who can blame the media for this ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
...and just as I said...nothing of any relevance will happen. So predictable.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 29, 2018, 12:37:07 PM
...and just as I said...nothing of any relevance will happen. So predictable.

So why did the Fox News apologies to Parkland student?

“Facing boycott, Laura Ingraham apologizes for taunting Parkland teen over college rejections”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/29/laura-ingraham-savaged-for-taunting-parkland-activist-over-college-rejections/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 01:13:54 PM
Lot of posts here from people who supposedly “don’t care” about any developments . Why the need to keep propping up and  grasping at any thinly positive headlines then ?

Sign of insecurity maybe :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 29, 2018, 01:15:48 PM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.

Wasn’t there a boycott to Fox News before? Tell me what happened.

(Yawns it’s like kicking a rock in an alley.. too easy)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 01:27:35 PM
That’s not what got O’Reily fired.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 01:42:54 PM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.

Wasn’t there a boycott to Fox News before? Tell me what happened.

(Yawns it’s like kicking a rock in an alley.. too easy)

Sadly you won’t get an honest acknowledgement of even the basic facts here since “winning “ is everything

Nonetheless I thought the NRA was all mighty and powerful and super charged up with new donations , what happened ?

Why couldn’t NRA influence Fox News but a teenager had them down on their knees ?

Ha ha ha
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 29, 2018, 01:43:59 PM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.

Holy-Molely! Look at the big time sponsors “pulling out” their ads due to her comment.
Not a big deal?
http://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-advertisers-respond-david-hogg-boycott-2018-3?r=UK&IR=T
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 03:07:13 PM
There is a gun-control debate happening in this country, and one side has chosen to fight it by spending a large amount of its energy arguing that teenage crime survivors are bad people?

Generally all they have to do is shout PELOSI into a microphone for like 30 seconds and call it a wrap. But instead somebody sat down and was like, you know what? Let’s get our middle-aged staff into a YouTube land war with a roving pack of 17-year-olds .. Genius idea !
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 03:57:02 PM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.

Holy-Molely! Look at the big time sponsors “pulling out” their ads due to her comment.
Not a big deal?
http://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-advertisers-respond-david-hogg-boycott-2018-3?r=UK&IR=T

This clip encapsulates what ends up happening with this supposed new found political power...nothing.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 04:39:58 PM
If you really think youth is monolithic on this issue read this with an open mind.

In High School, I Fervently Supported Gun Control. Now, I’m An NRA Member. Here’s What Changed

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/28/high-school-fervently-supported-gun-control-now-im-nra-member-heres-changed/ (http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/28/high-school-fervently-supported-gun-control-now-im-nra-member-heres-changed/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
The second you start losing an argument , point to the one exception and use that to generalize . Yes it’s not going to work

Obviously not 100 percent of teens support the march for life . You don’t need to point to one obscure article to state the obvious .

But they are a significant minority compared to the mlllions who marched last weekend .

And yes , get your million plus gun worshipping teens marching in the streets (heck forget that , just get a few thousand) and media will dutifully cover it .

With all the new money NRA is getting now, it should be easy to hire a few hundred buses no ?  Why should the almighty George Soros be the only one to get credit to fund every leftist conspiracy . I am all for equal rights and fair share  :)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 05:24:25 PM
Not losing the argument, just trying to enlighten you to why Nothing will change
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 29, 2018, 05:37:35 PM
You seem to have a very generous definition of “nothing”

Moving the goalpost each time to declare victory is one way of doing it I guess
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 29, 2018, 05:50:24 PM
Ive had very clear definitions of what the #Neveragain crowd sees as success. A so called assault weapons ban. Anything short ie. bump stock ban, raised age to 21 blah blah blah is failure.  Or a repeal of the second amendment. Neither will happen therefore nothing will change.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on March 29, 2018, 08:01:36 PM
How our culture has changed


(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/battlestar-galactica1.jpg?w=546&h=399&crop=1)
(Mutually supportive relationships)


(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/rexfeatures_5886263ca.jpg?w=546&h=399&crop=1)
(Sociopaths in space)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Ready2Downsize on March 29, 2018, 08:40:23 PM
Well............ family may have meant a lot to this bunch but they were still conniving backstabbers who aired the same time Lorne Greene was in Battlestar Gallactica:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/b3/f7/2db3f72472e13958bb34042e3a49f3ff.jpg


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 30, 2018, 07:12:56 AM
Well............ family may have meant a lot to this bunch but they were still conniving backstabbers who aired the same time Lorne Greene was in Battlestar Gallactica:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/b3/f7/2db3f72472e13958bb34042e3a49f3ff.jpg

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 30, 2018, 08:24:50 AM
Yup...no changes

Quote
Most younger Americans oppose President Trump's agenda and majorities call him "racist," "dishonest," and "unfit" to be president, according to a poll released Friday by The Associated Press.

Just 33 percent of Americans between the ages of 15 and 34 approve of the president's performance in office, nine points lower than the average of all adults in the same poll this month.


In addition, more than six in ten younger Americans say Trump "is a racist" and is "generally dishonest," while 60 percent exactly say he is "mentally unfit" for the office of the president.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/380995-poll-young-people-strongly-oppose-trump
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on March 30, 2018, 08:44:07 AM
The second you start losing an argument , point to the one exception and use that to generalize . Yes it’s not going to work

Obviously not 100 percent of teens support the march for life . You don’t need to point to one obscure article to state the obvious .

But they are a significant minority compared to the mlllions who marched last weekend .

And yes , get your million plus gun worshipping teens marching in the streets (heck forget that , just get a few thousand) and media will dutifully cover it .

With all the new money NRA is getting now, it should be easy to hire a few hundred buses no ?  Why should the almighty George Soros be the only one to get credit to fund every leftist conspiracy . I am all for equal rights and fair share  :)

Im a bit cynical, when they did the vigil, local schools basically gave the kids permission to skip class and go to the quad and participate.  Thhe OCregister or highlighted "big" gatherings like San Clement where 1200 kids were in the quad.  San Clementa high has 3200 kids in it.  Which means basically 2/3rds choose not to take a free pass and participate.

It warms my heart not because they're not supporting gun control but are actually obviously choosing to thjnk for themsellves and not be emotionally used.

Frank!y, all the politicians are too busy posing on the issue to propose taking bites from the shit sandwich like closing the private sale background check loophole. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 08:51:47 AM
...and they don’t vote. They make lots of noise but it translates to nothing. A very consistent stat...nothing will change.

Why young people don’t vote

UNLIKE presidential contests, America’s mid-term elections do not seem to inspire many people. In 2012 fully 59% of registered voters turned up at the polls for the presidential election. But two years earlier just 42% bothered to cast their votes in the 2010 mid-term elections, and this year’s turnout may be even lower. Few are as uninterested as the young. In 2010 the turnout of people aged 18 to 24 was just 21%. Such low turnout means that in mid-term years, Republicans (whose voters tend to be older) dominate the ballot, even though they cannot win so easily in presidential years. In plenty of Senate races, Democrats are banking, perhaps too hopefully, on an unusually high youth turnout to win. Why is it so difficult to get young people to vote?

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/10/economist-explains-24 (https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/10/economist-explains-24)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 30, 2018, 08:54:54 AM
...and they don’t vote. They make lots of noise but it translates to nothing. A very consistent stat...nothing will change.

Why young people don’t vote

UNLIKE presidential contests, America’s mid-term elections do not seem to inspire many people. In 2012 fully 59% of registered voters turned up at the polls for the presidential election. But two years earlier just 42% bothered to cast their votes in the 2010 mid-term elections, and this year’s turnout may be even lower. Few are as uninterested as the young. In 2010 the turnout of people aged 18 to 24 was just 21%. Such low turnout means that in mid-term years, Republicans (whose voters tend to be older) dominate the ballot, even though they cannot win so easily in presidential years. In plenty of Senate races, Democrats are banking, perhaps too hopefully, on an unusually high youth turnout to win. Why is it so difficult to get young people to vote?

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/10/economist-explains-24 (https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/10/economist-explains-24)

Young people don't vote because 1) they don't think it matters, 2) they don't have anything that they care about, and/or 3) they are distracted by other things.     They are now on TV and being attacked by the far right.   

The President is also attacking young people and their values on a regular basis.  The same reason why Trump's supporters back him are the same reasons why younger voters have great disdain for him

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/12/15/democrats_see_young-voter_surge_growing_in_2018_135798.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 09:22:42 AM
If that’s the demo you are depending on...you can have them. As I said before, have you ever had a conversation with an 18-20 year old about politics? It’s shocking how uninformed and malleable they are. Even the educated ones I love are not only breathtakingly ignorant of even a basic idea of how our political system works. Not only that, they are lazy, they’ll be happy to bend your ear with an opinion but few will take the time to vote or even register (which they don’t know they have to do ahead of time, LOL). Good luck with that...you can have them, I’ll take them later when they start paying taxes and actually vote.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 30, 2018, 09:36:13 AM
If that’s the demo you are depending on...you can have them. As I said before, have you ever had a conversation with an 18-20 year old about politics? It’s shocking how uninformed and malleable they are. Even the educated ones I love are not only breathtakingly ignorant of even a basic idea of how our political system works. Not only that, they are lazy, they’ll be happy to bend your ear with an opinion but few will take the time to vote or even register (which they don’t know they have to do ahead of time, LOL). Good luck with that...you can have them, I’ll take them later when they start paying taxes and actually vote.

Okay...ignore at your own peril.   
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 09:43:41 AM
Always a force to be reconned with...the power of youth, Rock the Vote!!.

Rock the Vote hypocrites: Lena Dunham, Whoopi Goldberg and other celebs who urged young people to turn out didn't take part in last midterms themselves, records reveal

At least five stars in a recent Rock the Vote PSA urging youth to exercise their franchise didn't bother to show up to the polls themselves in 2010
Orange is the New Black's Natasha Lyonne, Glee's Darren Criss and Rich Kids of Beverly Hills star E.J. Johnson did not vote four years ago
Neither did Goldberg or Dunham, who admittedly voted for her 'first time' in the 2012 presidential election
Only a quarter of 18-29 year olds voted in the last midterms; the same percentage are expected to vote this year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2819228/Rock-Vote-hypocrites-Lena-Dunham-Whoopi-Goldberg-celebs-urged-young-people-turn-didn-t-midterms-records-reveal.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2819228/Rock-Vote-hypocrites-Lena-Dunham-Whoopi-Goldberg-celebs-urged-young-people-turn-didn-t-midterms-records-reveal.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 30, 2018, 10:13:39 AM
I’m not sure if you watch tv. But the movement with the high school students is legit even Fox News was covering the event.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 10:20:40 AM
Thousands showed up for these events too, and they were of voting age.  Still didn’t work. This is more a media firecracker than a deep, consequential, lasting “movement “.

Rock the Vote Kicks Off Five Premier Inaugural Events
Featuring Sheryl Crow, the Beastie Boys, Talib Kweli, Michael Franti, Adrian Grenier, Dresden Dolls and many more


https://www.rockthevote.org/rock-the-vote-kicks-off-five/ (https://www.rockthevote.org/rock-the-vote-kicks-off-five/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 30, 2018, 10:29:42 AM
I don’t think people seen this before. I don’t know if it’s true but they are comparing it to the civil rights movement.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 30, 2018, 11:22:07 AM
I don’t think people seen this before. I don’t know if it’s true but they are comparing it to the civil rights movement.

I have said this here before and I will say it again.

This is like tipping a vending machine - it just doesn't happen in one try -- all previous attempts at rocking it back and forth , only to end up at the same stable equilibrium vertical position, until that final push when it tips over. 

smart investors know this - applies to every walk of life, economic of course , but even social areas  - you name it.  Those who don't are the ones who end up holding stocks in yellow pages / directory companies -- you get the joke.

civil rights , gay rights , collapse of Soviet Union, countless examples. 

Just do a thought experiment -- imagine we had this very talk Irvine board and these same type of posters  in the mid 60s with civil rights movement or in the mid 90s with gay rights movement - what would they be saying ?  Just imagine  ...

Your mind took a big gulp just now, right :)

People stuck in the rut / old way of thinking keep denying it till its too late and then quickly fall in line to survive. you can only live in the Fox News bubble for so long till reality engulfs  you. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 30, 2018, 11:39:22 AM
November is a long way away.  You may have gotten exceptional turnout if voting was this month, but come election time these kids will be in another world back to eating Tide pods and pouring vodka in their eyeballs (or whatever the next self destructive, attention seeking fad is).
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 30, 2018, 11:44:40 AM
Thousands showed up for these events too, and they were of voting age.  Still didn’t work. This is more a media firecracker than a deep, consequential, lasting “movement “.

Rock the Vote Kicks Off Five Premier Inaugural Events
Featuring Sheryl Crow, the Beastie Boys, Talib Kweli, Michael Franti, Adrian Grenier, Dresden Dolls and many more


https://www.rockthevote.org/rock-the-vote-kicks-off-five/ (https://www.rockthevote.org/rock-the-vote-kicks-off-five/)

No...they show up for the concert...not for the cause.  This time, they showed up for the events/cause without the pageantry.   I do not have teenagers yet but good luck trying to get them out the door and do anything that they do not want to do.

These events are being organized on a grassroots level, many of them by the students themselves.  You give kids way too little credit these days.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/march-for-our-lives-san-jose-organizing-committee-meets-saturday-welcomes-volunteers/

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/No-one-was-organizing-an-SF-rally-against-gun-12771947.php

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/ellicott-city/ph-ho-howard-county-students-mobilize-to-dc-march-20180319-story.html

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on March 30, 2018, 11:50:40 AM
November is a long way away.  You may have gotten exceptional turnout if voting was this month, but come election time these kids will be in another world back to eating Tide pods and pouring vodka in their eyeballs (or whatever the next self destructive, attention seeking fad is).

Again...ignore at your own risk.    Fox News people were convinced that the movement would peter out after a few days but going on stronger than ever.   

Teenagers are always doing stupid things but kids/teenagers are significantly more aware and focused than the last several generation.  When I was a teenager, going to pick up trash at the beach was a big deal.   

Now that they have seem that the movement has actual effect, the teenagers will be super motivated to continue.   This, in part, is why the Fox News and ultra right are dumb...they keep antagonizing the kids and acting like bullies.   They would have been much better off placating the protestors.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 05:58:09 PM
Let me tell you, I do have teenage kids, And they are laughing at this movement.  I did a career day at a local public high school recently and if California kids think of it this way, nationally, you’re kidding yourself.  Additionally, none of these kids are going to be able to vote in the midterms elections so the point is moot
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on March 30, 2018, 06:05:48 PM
Let me tell you, I do have teenage kids, And they are laughing at this movement.  I did a career day at a local public high school recently and if California kids think of it this way, nationally, you’re kidding yourself.  Additionally, none of these kids are going to be able to vote in the midterms elections so the point is moot

Your personal story doesn’t reflect the national effect.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 30, 2018, 07:27:36 PM
I agree, if my little corner of Cali is like this the rest of the country can only be better. We sit on the extreme left.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 31, 2018, 07:22:50 AM
Oh oh, what happened here ?

Where is the almighty NRA with its all powerful cash hoard from new donations ? They couldn’t save one of their own ?

How come a bunch of little , insignificant, George soros funded kids were able to humble this propaganda   network yet again ?

Please someone enlighten us — for once , without using “but Hillary ... “



BREAKING: Laura Ingraham announced on tonight's show that she would take next week off and be replaced by "a great lineup of guest hosts"
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on March 31, 2018, 04:37:11 PM
can't wait for the massive turnout in november

Quote
Despite media narrative, study says teenagers made up just 10 percent of March for Our Lives crowd

A university professor studying large-scale, Trump-era protests in Washington says the media is giving the wrong impression about who made up the crowd during last weekend’s anti-gun March for Our Lives demonstration.

“My research tells a different story about who participated in the March for Our Lives — and it is more complicated and less well-packaged for prime time,” University of Maryland sociology professor Dana R. Fisher wrote in a Wednesday story for the Washington Post.

Fisher’s study indicates that -- while news coverage focused on the teenagers marching for gun control in the wake of last month’s shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida --- 90 percent of the crowd was actually adults. She said the average age of adults in the crowd was just under 49.

“Contrary to what’s been reported in many media accounts, the D.C. March for Our Lives crowd was not primarily made up of teenagers,” Fisher wrote. “Only about 10 percent of the participants were under 18.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/03/28/despite-media-narrative-study-says-teenagers-made-up-just-10-percent-march-for-our-lives-crowd.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on March 31, 2018, 06:55:21 PM
Today I passed a sign on the highway demanding I go some kind of “speed limit “

They are coming for our cars next , people !!

The only way to stop a bad guy w a car is with a thousand good guys on foot  — NRA spokesperson
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on April 03, 2018, 10:17:15 AM
November is a long way away.  You may have gotten exceptional turnout if voting was this month, but come election time these kids will be in another world back to eating Tide pods and pouring vodka in their eyeballs (or whatever the next self destructive, attention seeking fad is).

It's really not the "greatest generation" is it?

The 'condom snorting challenge' is every parent's worst nightmare

Viral videos posted on social media show teenagers snorting condoms as part of a so-called "condom snorting challenge."

In the videos, teens put an unwrapped condom up one of their nostrils and inhale until the condom comes out of their mouth. Like other viral challenges, the condom snorting challenge has been around for years but recently reemerged on social media.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/02/condom-snorting-challenge-every-parents-worst-nightmare/477431002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/02/condom-snorting-challenge-every-parents-worst-nightmare/477431002/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on April 03, 2018, 10:52:59 AM
November is a long way away.  You may have gotten exceptional turnout if voting was this month, but come election time these kids will be in another world back to eating Tide pods and pouring vodka in their eyeballs (or whatever the next self destructive, attention seeking fad is).

It's really not the "greatest generation" is it?

The 'condom snorting challenge' is every parent's worst nightmare

Viral videos posted on social media show teenagers snorting condoms as part of a so-called "condom snorting challenge."

In the videos, teens put an unwrapped condom up one of their nostrils and inhale until the condom comes out of their mouth. Like other viral challenges, the condom snorting challenge has been around for years but recently reemerged on social media.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/02/condom-snorting-challenge-every-parents-worst-nightmare/477431002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/02/condom-snorting-challenge-every-parents-worst-nightmare/477431002/)

What's next, eating crayons to see who can make the most vibrant colored poop?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on April 03, 2018, 11:35:16 AM
any suggestions on what the giant baby in the white house is snorting on ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on April 03, 2018, 12:11:04 PM
Seriously...there are enough old people yelling at the clouds in this thread.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on April 03, 2018, 12:21:17 PM
Seriously...there are enough old people yelling at the clouds in this thread.

Funny

Plenty of old people snorting on hate and anger for the other side 

Endorsing outright corruption, deficits and Hugo Chavez like  anti free market antics ... all in the name of “owning the libs”
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on April 03, 2018, 12:21:52 PM
Dont look at me....

THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS WILL SCREAM HELPLESSLY AT THE SKY ON TRUMP'S ELECTION ANNIVERSARY

http://www.newsweek.com/americans-scream-helplessly-sky-donald-trump-election-anniversary-690889 (http://www.newsweek.com/americans-scream-helplessly-sky-donald-trump-election-anniversary-690889)

The event is pretty much self-explanatory. On the anniversary of last year’s election, thousands will flock to the Boston Common for a party fueled by despair and aggravation over the contest's winner—whom 73 million Americans voted against
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on April 03, 2018, 12:26:59 PM
“This school district is arming students with rocks in case of a shooter

A Pennsylvania school district has a different solution for tackling intruders: rocks.

Buckets full of river stones have been placed in all classrooms at the Blue Mountain School District in Schuylkill County, Superintendent David Helsel said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/24/us/pennsylvania-school-students-armed-rocks-trnd/index.html

My comment: I wonder who’s bright dea was this. Maybe they should spend the money on security.



Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on April 03, 2018, 12:42:57 PM
Who knows Maybe they have something legitimate to scream on

Unlike repubs screaming at the clouds when Obama dared to wear a tan suit to Easter Sunday church service  .... I remember that was supposed to be the end of the republic according to Fox News
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on April 03, 2018, 12:51:00 PM
Dont look at me....

THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS WILL SCREAM HELPLESSLY AT THE SKY ON TRUMP'S ELECTION ANNIVERSARY

http://www.newsweek.com/americans-scream-helplessly-sky-donald-trump-election-anniversary-690889 (http://www.newsweek.com/americans-scream-helplessly-sky-donald-trump-election-anniversary-690889)

The event is pretty much self-explanatory. On the anniversary of last year’s election, thousands will flock to the Boston Common for a party fueled by despair and aggravation over the contest's winner—whom 73 million Americans voted against

Hmm...they can do something...like organizing, protesting, and voting, which they have been doing.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on April 03, 2018, 01:14:15 PM
Like the title of this thread, in the end, nothing will be done or change. Scream away.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on April 03, 2018, 01:18:53 PM
Or you can get protect people with stones.

Lol

I’m trying to figure it out. Trying to save money or is this a statement.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on April 03, 2018, 01:32:04 PM
Or you can get protect people with stones.

Lol

I’m trying to figure it out. Trying to save money or is this a statement.

I am sure the school district contracted with a rock " supplier " who is only willing to overcharge the taxpayers for this

"the only way to stop a bad hombre with a rock is thousand good people with pebbles " -- NRA 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on April 10, 2018, 01:13:05 PM
Or you can get protect people with stones.

Lol

I’m trying to figure it out. Trying to save money or is this a statement.

Here is some more substantial changes in reaction to youthful protest.  This should work better than rocks...more up close and personal.

Teachers being given BATS in one school district to remind them to fight back against school shooters


Pennsylvania's Millcreek Township School District gave out 500 mini baseball bats to teachers during a training session Monday
The bats were meant to remind them to fight back against a shooter
The bats were both symbolic and a 'consistent tool' to use other options fail


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5598625/Teachers-bats-reminder-fight-shooting.html#ixzz5CIoDHLOs  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5598625/Teachers-bats-reminder-fight-shooting.html#ixzz5CIoDHLOs)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on April 10, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Or you can get protect people with stones.

Lol

I’m trying to figure it out. Trying to save money or is this a statement.

Here is some more substantial changes in reaction to youthful protest.  This should work better than rocks...more up close and personal.

Teachers being given BATS in one school district to remind them to fight back against school shooters


Pennsylvania's Millcreek Township School District gave out 500 mini baseball bats to teachers during a training session Monday
The bats were meant to remind them to fight back against a shooter
The bats were both symbolic and a 'consistent tool' to use other options fail


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5598625/Teachers-bats-reminder-fight-shooting.html#ixzz5CIoDHLOs  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5598625/Teachers-bats-reminder-fight-shooting.html#ixzz5CIoDHLOs)


Too bad one of the teachers didn't whack the Superintendent upside the head and tell them to pull their head out of their ass at the training sessions.  Perhaps suggesting district administration try throwing their bodies at the shooters until they run out ammo and they can tackle him.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on April 16, 2018, 12:00:40 PM
This is not a parody...

After murder rate passes NYC, London Mayor Sadiq Khan calls for sharper knife control
Quote
London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a crackdown on knives Sunday in response to the rising levels of violence in London, which recently surpassed New York City's homicide rate for the first time.

"No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife," Khan tweeted. "Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law."

There have been more than 50 homicides in London so far in 2018, and much of the violence is tied to gangs.

Guns are strictly regulated in the United Kingdom and the rising homicide rate in London is directly attributable to a rise in knife-related crimes, with stabbings claiming at least 31 lives to date in 2018. By contrast, New York — which has a population roughly the same size as London — has seen a steady decline in violent crime.

There were 15 murders committed in London in February and another 22 in March, while New York saw 14 murders in February and 21 in March, according to murder rate statistics provided to USA TODAY by London's Metropolitan Police and the New York Police Department.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/09/london-mayor-knife-control/500328002/
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on April 21, 2018, 09:33:07 AM
A good example of "see something, say something" - to a group of cops who hopefully will do something about it.

Although ammunition appears to be all that was found, you don't keep ammo without some way of using it.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/04/19/irvine-man-charged-with-anti-semitic-hate-crimes-after-being-turned-in-by-family-member/ (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/04/19/irvine-man-charged-with-anti-semitic-hate-crimes-after-being-turned-in-by-family-member/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 07, 2018, 12:05:36 PM
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 15, 2018, 07:49:26 AM
Who cares?  Ball is in same spot it was. You really think someone who is watching Laura Ingram on Fox is gonna join a boycott? Not so much.

Wasn’t there a boycott to Fox News before? Tell me what happened.

(Yawns it’s like kicking a rock in an alley.. too easy)

Sadly you won’t get an honest acknowledgement of even the basic facts here since “winning “ is everything

Nonetheless I thought the NRA was all mighty and powerful and super charged up with new donations , what happened ?

Why couldn’t NRA influence Fox News but a teenager had them down on their knees ?

Ha ha ha


Yah, that worked. Not only is she still on TV but her ratings are through the roof...nothing changes.

Ingraham, despite recent controversies surrounding her 10 p.m. show, had a big week in the ratings, managing to beat MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow — who rivals Hannity at 9 p.m. — in the key 25-54 demo for the first time ever. The Ingraham Angle notched 2.7 million total viewers and 556,000 in the demo.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/sean-hannity-we-lost-three-quarters-of-fox-primetime-and-were-still-killing-it-in-the-ratings/ (https://www.mediaite.com/tv/sean-hannity-we-lost-three-quarters-of-fox-primetime-and-were-still-killing-it-in-the-ratings/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 16, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
That worked...

Teenage gunman, 19, is brought down by armed resource officer after opening fire at his old high school

The shooter opened fire near the gym of Dixon High School in Illinois at 8am
After firing several shots, he was confronted by resource officer Mark Dallas
Dallas began chasing him out of the school and the teen opened fire again
The officer returned fire and wounded him which brought the incident to a stop

No one else was injured and Dallas has been hailed a hero for his actions
After the first shots, staff and students barricaded themselves in classrooms
The students were later evacuated to a nearby baseball field to meet parents
The gunman's name has not been released but he is a former student

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5736527/Teenage-gunman-brought-police-officer-opening-fire-Illinois-high-school.html#ixzz5FhQSrQt1  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5736527/Teenage-gunman-brought-police-officer-opening-fire-Illinois-high-school.html#ixzz5FhQSrQt1)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on May 16, 2018, 01:48:14 PM
That worked...

Teenage gunman, 19, is brought down by armed resource officer after opening fire at his old high school

The shooter opened fire near the gym of Dixon High School in Illinois at 8am
After firing several shots, he was confronted by resource officer Mark Dallas
Dallas began chasing him out of the school and the teen opened fire again
The officer returned fire and wounded him which brought the incident to a stop

No one else was injured and Dallas has been hailed a hero for his actions
After the first shots, staff and students barricaded themselves in classrooms
The students were later evacuated to a nearby baseball field to meet parents
The gunman's name has not been released but he is a former student

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5736527/Teenage-gunman-brought-police-officer-opening-fire-Illinois-high-school.html#ixzz5FhQSrQt1  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5736527/Teenage-gunman-brought-police-officer-opening-fire-Illinois-high-school.html#ixzz5FhQSrQt1)

yup...police officers should carry guns.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on May 16, 2018, 03:10:30 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on May 16, 2018, 03:19:02 PM
Parkland shooting officer labelled a 'coward' receives $8,700 a month pension

Although he resigned following the shooting, Mr Peterson is receiving $8,702.35 a month from his pension, according to a report form the South Florida Sun Sentinel. That makes up $104,428.20 a year — slightly more than the $101,879.04 he received in salary last year, according to that newspaper.


“The thing he was supposed to do — protect these children — he didn’t do,” Michael Udine, the Broward County Commissioner, told the Miami Herald. “Now he’s going to be paid by taxpayers for the rest of his life? It seems disgraceful.”

President Donald Trump later called Mr Peterson a "coward" for his actions.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/parkland-shooting-officer-labelled-apos-214400523.html

Victims of Parkland Shooter: 0
Public Employee Unions: 1
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on May 16, 2018, 03:24:47 PM
It’s the new Compton? Lol
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on May 18, 2018, 04:08:21 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on May 18, 2018, 04:22:22 PM
BTB - I think people are still numb from the last one.

It could be that since a pistol, shotgun, pipebombs, and pressure cookers were used, there isn't as much outrage able to be mustered at the NRA as opposed to if the killer used a scary looking rifle.

I learned a new term out of this today. The murderer was referred to as a "Columbiner" - someone fixated on the Columbine shooting. Terrible. Anyone who is even remotely to be considered a "Columbiner" should be moved to a very small cell as quickly as possible with as much therapy applied as they can stand. These are damaged young adults, but remain capable of being reformed if intervention is done early enough.

If you listen to Dennis Praeger today he had a reasonable take on this. To paraphrase.... I don't know the answer to the problem of gun violence, but I know the right questions are not being asked to solve this issue. In the past 50 or so years the number of and access to guns has not materially changed. The important question then to ask is this: "What has changed?"

That's a very big question to tackle IMHO but one that should be addressed with greater vigor than the solutions proposed by the "ban everything" crowd.

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on May 18, 2018, 06:23:17 PM
BTB - I think people are still numb from the last one.

It could be that since a pistol, shotgun, pipebombs, and pressure cookers were used, there isn't as much outrage able to be mustered at the NRA as opposed to if the killer used a scary looking rifle.

I learned a new term out of this today. The murderer was referred to as a "Columbiner" - someone fixated on the Columbine shooting. Terrible. Anyone who is even remotely to be considered a "Columbiner" should be moved to a very small cell as quickly as possible with as much therapy applied as they can stand. These are damaged young adults, but remain capable of being reformed if intervention is done early enough.

If you listen to Dennis Praeger today he had a reasonable take on this. To paraphrase.... I don't know the answer to the problem of gun violence, but I know the right questions are not being asked to solve this issue. In the past 50 or so years the number of and access to guns has not materially changed. The important question then to ask is this: "What has changed?"

That's a very big question to tackle IMHO but one that should be addressed with greater vigor than the solutions proposed by the "ban everything" crowd.

My .02c
Both the Columbine shooter and this shooter shot the bullies that tormented them for years. They took measures to avoid hurting those who did then no harm. I'm not suggesting that bullies deserve to be shot, but these incidents should serve to remind bullies, their parents, and school administrators that there can be serious consequences to bullying. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: spootieho on May 18, 2018, 08:56:24 PM
Today i learned a new term “incel”.  It describes people who are unvoluntarily celibate.  They get to the point where they hate the world because nobody want to have sex with them.  Aa few shooters have noted this as their reason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on May 18, 2018, 09:30:18 PM
The political haks were drawing the same lines before the police could even hold their first press conference or clear the building.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: aquabliss on May 19, 2018, 12:07:43 AM
Today i learned a new term “incel”.  It describes people who are unvoluntarily celibate.  They get to the point where they hate the world because nobody want to have sex with them.  Aa few shooters have noted this as their reason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

There’s another word for this as well.  I’ve heard it referred to as “marriage”.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on May 19, 2018, 06:46:00 AM
BTB - I think people are still numb from the last one.

It could be that since a pistol, shotgun, pipebombs, and pressure cookers were used, there isn't as much outrage able to be mustered at the NRA as opposed to if the killer used a scary looking rifle.

I learned a new term out of this today. The murderer was referred to as a "Columbiner" - someone fixated on the Columbine shooting. Terrible. Anyone who is even remotely to be considered a "Columbiner" should be moved to a very small cell as quickly as possible with as much therapy applied as they can stand. These are damaged young adults, but remain capable of being reformed if intervention is done early enough.

If you listen to Dennis Praeger today he had a reasonable take on this. To paraphrase.... I don't know the answer to the problem of gun violence, but I know the right questions are not being asked to solve this issue. In the past 50 or so years the number of and access to guns has not materially changed. The important question then to ask is this: "What has changed?"

That's a very big question to tackle IMHO but one that should be addressed with greater vigor than the solutions proposed by the "ban everything" crowd.

My .02c
Both the Columbine shooter and this shooter shot the bullies that tormented them for years. They took measures to avoid hurting those who did then no harm. I'm not suggesting that bullies deserve to be shot, but these incidents should serve to remind bullies, their parents, and school administrators that there can be serious consequences to bullying.

the difference between bullying back then and bullying now is that the bullying is 24/7.  it used to be that bullying only occurred at school or outside the home.  now, with social media, it's at school and it's in the home.  there's no escape for these kids who grow up in constant turmoil with all the hate spewed by their peers, and then people wonder why they go out and commit atrocities like this. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on May 19, 2018, 06:28:18 PM
Really, no one is talking about what happened today?

10 dead, 10 wounded in shooting at Santa Fe High School in Texas, explosives found on campus: Officials

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/active-shooter-incident-santa-fe-high-school-texas-141104621--abc-news-topstories.html

Under Texas State Law, minors are prohibited from accessing firearms unless under direct adult supervision for hunting and sporting activities.  Since the shooter is under 18, the father who owned the firearms needs to be investigated.  If he did not properly secure the firearms then he needs to go to jail for this.

Unlike old style combination dial safes that take some time to open, the newer models have keypads and fingerprint readers.  There is really no excuse for people to leave firearms unsecured around the home.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Burn That Belly on May 20, 2018, 09:51:31 PM
x
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: zubs on May 21, 2018, 02:02:14 PM
You'll end up Pistoriousing your girlfriend.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: momopi on May 21, 2018, 02:10:57 PM
Really, no one is talking about what happened today?

10 dead, 10 wounded in shooting at Santa Fe High School in Texas, explosives found on campus: Officials

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/active-shooter-incident-santa-fe-high-school-texas-141104621--abc-news-topstories.html

Under Texas State Law, minors are prohibited from accessing firearms unless under direct adult supervision for hunting and sporting activities.  Since the shooter is under 18, the father who owned the firearms needs to be investigated.  If he did not properly secure the firearms then he needs to go to jail for this.

Unlike old style combination dial safes that take some time to open, the newer models have keypads and fingerprint readers.  There is really no excuse for people to leave firearms unsecured around the home.

If a burglar broke into your home through a window while you are sleeping, you only have seconds to react. Have to grab that piece in the nightstand. Spray and pray.  ;D

Castle Doctrine baby.


If the burglar easily gained entry through your window, it means you did not properly secure the entry points to your home.

Your windows and patio doors can be reinforced with smash-proof film, upgraded locks, and window/patio door screens replaced with light security screens.  Alarms, flood lights, and window bars can also be added.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on May 21, 2018, 02:24:54 PM
Good point Mo. The person shouldn’t have easy access. ;)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: StarmanMBA on May 25, 2018, 02:46:16 PM

"I grew up with guns, and I like owning them. So does my husband Mark. It’s an interest we’ve shared ever since we met. It’s part of my heritage as an Arizonan and it’s my right as an American. Being able to shoot a gun is something I haven’t been able to do since I was shot – because my right arm is paralyzed, and I’m less mobile than I was." - Gabby Giffords, who now speaks out for the advocates of banning all guns.

Here is Gabby smiling, posing with an AR-15, and a target of a teenager she shot repeatedly.

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/03/15/gabrielle-giffords-leaked-ar-15-hypocrisy-pose-from-the-past/ (https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/03/15/gabrielle-giffords-leaked-ar-15-hypocrisy-pose-from-the-past/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on June 13, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
So here we are 4 months later, several elections, and what has changed?  Nothing, so predictable.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on June 13, 2018, 08:51:16 AM
So here we are 4 months later, several elections, and what has changed?  Nothing, so predictable.

Must act now. Too weak to stand up to the NRA like he said he will.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on June 13, 2018, 09:39:45 AM
True, that on a Federal level, nothings changed. The States have tightened gun laws since Parkland. Outside of what the States have done, what precisely should the Feds do?

(PS - Ban "assault weapons" isn't a solution, so please don't start with that)

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on June 13, 2018, 09:48:07 AM
Video clip from 3.1.18 (not to long ago)

Trump tells congressman that he is afraid of the NRA. Another congressman tells Trump he under estimated the power of the NRA. They have great power over you people. They have less power over me.

I didn’t make it up. Check it out. You know me. I don’t make things up.

The video is only 1 minute. MUST WATCh NOW.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on June 18, 2018, 11:20:02 AM
Yes, this is progress,  well done, only 36 shot and 7 fatalities....buuut its less then last year!!!  Where are the kids protesting this?....at the beach.  Nothing changes, nothing done.

36 people shot in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend, marking a reduction in gun violence

CHICAGO — Police in the nation’s third-largest city said 36 people were shot —including seven fatally — over the Memorial Day weekend, slightly less gunfire than the city has seen over the holiday weekend in the previous two years.

The city tallied six murders and 44 wounded over the weekend — what has historically been one of the most violent times of the year here — last year, and seven murders and 61 shooting victims during the 2016 holiday weekend, according to police.

The reduction in gun violence comes as city officials are trying to turn the corner after two horrendous years in which Chicago recorded 650 murders in 2017 and 762 murders in 2016 — more homicides than any other U.S. city and a level of gun violence more typical of the late 1980s and early 1990s when many major metros were battered by the scourge of gang-fueled drug violence.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/29/chicago-36-shot-over-memorial-day-weekend-gun-violence/650932002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/29/chicago-36-shot-over-memorial-day-weekend-gun-violence/650932002/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on June 19, 2018, 05:22:51 PM
22 people shot in a mass shooting in Trenton New Jersey, one dead!!!  Where is the outrage? Where is the riotous indignation? Where are the protest?  Where are the children? Yawn ....Squirl!!!

Mass Shooting at New Jersey Arts Festival Leaves 22 Injured and 1 Dead

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/nyregion/trenton-mass-shooting.html (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/nyregion/trenton-mass-shooting.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on June 20, 2018, 06:51:57 AM
22 people shot in a mass shooting in Trenton New Jersey, one dead!!!  Where is the outrage? Where is the riotous indignation? Where are the protest?  Where are the children? Yawn ....Squirl!!!

Mass Shooting at New Jersey Arts Festival Leaves 22 Injured and 1 Dead

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/nyregion/trenton-mass-shooting.html (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/nyregion/trenton-mass-shooting.html)

illegal immigrant children locked in cages is the hot button this month, please keep up!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on June 20, 2018, 08:23:40 AM
My exact point, this is old news even though it was hardly reported...22 people!!!  Could it be it was not juicy enough?  Not enough children victims?  Didnt happen in a "white" neighborhood?  Was not done with a scary "assault rifle"?  Not enough people actually died?  What a load of crap, the stench of hypocrisy.  Nothing will change.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on June 29, 2018, 08:38:22 AM
Soooo...Ban Shotguns!!! Well, maybe not according to Granpa Joe.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on August 03, 2018, 05:14:59 PM
The NRA could use your thoughts and prayers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/people-sending-thoughts-prayers-nra-204101337.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
So, here we are coming up on 6 months since the shooting and what?  Where is the sweeping change, where is the mass moment to get evil assault rifles off the streets?  Where are all the new gun control laws passed by majority votes?...ANSWER:  nowhere...nothing has changed...just as I predicted.  What happend to the youthful exuberant leaders?  Nice hypocrites. 

David Hogg protests outside NRA HQ — protected by armed guards?

Anti-gun protester David Hogg hates guns — but apparently not enough to not be protected by them.

Hogg and a collective of anti-Second Amendment agitators protested outside the NRA headquarters on Saturday, and as the group points out, he was protected by armed guards.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/ (http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on August 06, 2018, 09:51:42 AM
The answer to your question is the video of Trump and Congress press conference. (Which you didn’t respond to my comment previously.)

They are too afraid to stand up to the NRA. (paraphrasing)


So, here we are coming up on 6 months since the shooting and what?  Where is the sweeping change, where is the mass moment to get evil assault rifles off the streets?  Where are all the new gun control laws passed by majority votes?...ANSWER:  nowhere...nothing has changed...just as I predicted.  What happend to the youthful exuberant leaders?  Nice hypocrites. 

David Hogg protests outside NRA HQ — protected by armed guards?

Anti-gun protester David Hogg hates guns — but apparently not enough to not be protected by them.

Hogg and a collective of anti-Second Amendment agitators protested outside the NRA headquarters on Saturday, and as the group points out, he was protected by armed guards.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/ (http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 09:55:35 AM
Whatever reason you want to assign to it, the end result is the same.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on August 06, 2018, 09:57:16 AM
So, here we are coming up on 6 months since the shooting and what?  Where is the sweeping change, where is the mass moment to get evil assault rifles off the streets?  Where are all the new gun control laws passed by majority votes?...ANSWER:  nowhere...nothing has changed...just as I predicted.  What happend to the youthful exuberant leaders?  Nice hypocrites. 

David Hogg protests outside NRA HQ — protected by armed guards?

Anti-gun protester David Hogg hates guns — but apparently not enough to not be protected by them.

Hogg and a collective of anti-Second Amendment agitators protested outside the NRA headquarters on Saturday, and as the group points out, he was protected by armed guards.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/ (http://www.theamericanmirror.com/david-hogg-protests-outside-nra-hq-protected-by-armed-guards/)

Sorry, logical fallacies work well with misinformed and poorly educated folk. They'll be called out here.

Your comment is set-up with a blatant strawman. Who predicted the sweeping change?

Nice self-congratulatory comment too. All change is difficult. Federal change in gun laws with a Rep president and Congress is nearly impossible. Great prediction though. I predicted it would be sunny and hot in Irvine today, for the record.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on August 06, 2018, 09:59:47 AM
Whatever reason you want to assign to it, the end result is the same.

At least you know people know the reason. It’s not my reason it came from Trump’s mouth. Did I make it up? Is it fake news?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on August 06, 2018, 10:10:21 AM
Speaking of Florida:

http://dailycaller.com/2018/08/05/shooter-targets-back-to-school-event-runs-into-a-good-guy-with-a-gun/ (http://dailycaller.com/2018/08/05/shooter-targets-back-to-school-event-runs-into-a-good-guy-with-a-gun/)

Prediction: David "Where's the Camera?" Hogg gets 1000x more pixels than this Good Guy with a Gun.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 10:13:01 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

 





No tipping point..no change.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on August 06, 2018, 10:24:23 AM
More: Do you agree with Trump or not?
(It seems like you don’t want to address his comment with some members from congress regarding the NRA.)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 10:35:22 AM
No, on that issue I don't agree.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on August 06, 2018, 10:39:57 AM
Those who paid heed to my advice in the recent market selloff probably came out ahead ...

Mark my words .. we are again at a tipping point in history .. wrt guns

i have been following this topic since Columbine (99) and there has been a stalemate for a very very long time --- but just as the tide turned w civil rights, gay rights , now NRA/GOP may have jumped the shark w this latest episode of high school shooting -- the attention this is getting is somewhat different and the responses I am seeing are also very different .

GOP may also be laying the seeds for its long term ruin.   One election does not a trend make, and there are only so many fax-addled old ppl who keep voting them in before the next generation (s) take over -- gerrymandering also will not be able to save them.  There is still time for the Mitt Romney types (I was a Romney voter) to save the party but they need to act fast ...

 





No tipping point..no change.

Would you say, you mis-characterized this comment, a tad?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
No.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on August 06, 2018, 10:54:36 AM
Your posts are indicative of the new Republican party under Trump's leadership. Nothing matters, not consistency, not intellectual honesty, not character... This, like bigotry, was always a large part of the Republican platform. Trump's just magnified it and made it incapable of being even plausibly denied.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 06, 2018, 10:59:14 AM
And there it is.  Why does it always come back to race and bigotry?  Always, no matter what the issue.  Gun control, taxes, religion, your favorite color, it doesn't matter. You look through that lens at everything...I don't, and neither do a lot of others.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on August 06, 2018, 11:12:20 AM
If Anti 2A, Anti-NRA folks were really riled up about "money and influence" perhaps they should also include the lobbying and campaign financing of Teachers Unions.

Why? Well, considering more children are raped molested by Teachers per year than killed by NRA members at schools, shouldn't there be some leftover outrage to share on the issue? Need some evidence of the claim? Google "Teacher accused of" or "Teacher arrested for" which gives plenty of cases in just the past 12 months.

Teachers Union spending on elections in 2016: $33.2m

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html)

(For "oh, that's just Fox news..." the link from Open Secrets.org was too long, but they have more details)

NRA spending on elections in 2016: $55m-$70m

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html)

Evidently it's possible to buy off politicians and avoid both school and teacher reform with less money than it does to ensure a constitutionally protected right remains so. Should this be allowed to stand?

My .02c


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on August 06, 2018, 11:28:40 AM
If Anti 2A, Anti-NRA folks were really riled up about "money and influence" perhaps they should also include the lobbying and campaign financing of Teachers Unions.

Why? Well, considering more children are raped molested by Teachers per year than killed by NRA members at schools, shouldn't there be some leftover outrage to share on the issue? Need some evidence of the claim? Google "Teacher accused of" or "Teacher arrested for" which gives plenty of cases in just the past 12 months.

Teachers Union spending on elections in 2016: $33.2m

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html)

(For "oh, that's just Fox news..." the link from Open Secrets.org was too long, but they have more details)

NRA spending on elections in 2016: $55m-$70m

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html)

Evidently it's possible to buy off politicians and avoid both school and teacher reform with less money than it does to ensure a constitutionally protected right remains so. Should this be allowed to stand?

My .02c

don't forget planned parenthood spending $15m in taxpayer funds on 2016 elections
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Perspective on August 06, 2018, 12:23:09 PM
If Anti 2A, Anti-NRA folks were really riled up about "money and influence" perhaps they should also include the lobbying and campaign financing of Teachers Unions.

Why? Well, considering more children are raped molested by Teachers per year than killed by NRA members at schools, shouldn't there be some leftover outrage to share on the issue? Need some evidence of the claim? Google "Teacher accused of" or "Teacher arrested for" which gives plenty of cases in just the past 12 months.

Teachers Union spending on elections in 2016: $33.2m

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html)

(For "oh, that's just Fox news..." the link from Open Secrets.org was too long, but they have more details)

NRA spending on elections in 2016: $55m-$70m

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html)

Evidently it's possible to buy off politicians and avoid both school and teacher reform with less money than it does to ensure a constitutionally protected right remains so. Should this be allowed to stand?

My .02c

Goodness gracious. This is horribly flawed logic. Who has more access to kids than teachers? Parents? By this fact alone, I would expect the vast majority of violations of children to be perpetrated by parents and teachers. It's simple math/statistics.

The 2nd Amendment is not an absolute right, regardless of how many times anyone screams "Constitutionally protected!!!"
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on August 06, 2018, 12:29:14 PM
Perspective —-the only reason this thread suddenly became active is because on the other “trump thread s “  his supporters don’t have anything to say :)    So let’s not talk about logic

Tipping point ? Yes I still stand by it . Why everyone getting so impatient - midterms are still three  months away !   
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on August 07, 2018, 05:55:12 PM
If Anti 2A, Anti-NRA folks were really riled up about "money and influence" perhaps they should also include the lobbying and campaign financing of Teachers Unions.

Why? Well, considering more children are raped molested by Teachers per year than killed by NRA members at schools, shouldn't there be some leftover outrage to share on the issue? Need some evidence of the claim? Google "Teacher accused of" or "Teacher arrested for" which gives plenty of cases in just the past 12 months.

Teachers Union spending on elections in 2016: $33.2m

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/17/by-numbers-teachers-union-political-contributions-in-2016.html)

(For "oh, that's just Fox news..." the link from Open Secrets.org was too long, but they have more details)

NRA spending on elections in 2016: $55m-$70m

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article177313031.html)

Evidently it's possible to buy off politicians and avoid both school and teacher reform with less money than it does to ensure a constitutionally protected right remains so. Should this be allowed to stand?

My .02c

Goodness gracious. This is horribly flawed logic. Who has more access to kids than teachers? Parents? By this fact alone, I would expect the vast majority of violations of children to be perpetrated by parents and teachers. It's simple math/statistics.

The 2nd Amendment is not an absolute right, regardless of how many times anyone screams "Constitutionally protected!!!"


Goodness gracious, doesn't the Ninth Circuit know the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute right:

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/07/24/12-17808.pdf

I hope Hawaii appeals this all the way to the SCOTUS. The liberals will be fucked. Go Kavanaugh!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on August 20, 2018, 02:30:17 PM
Your posts are indicative of the new Republican party under Trump's leadership. Nothing matters, not consistency, not intellectual honesty, not character... This, like bigotry, was always a large part of the Republican platform. Trump's just magnified it and made it incapable of being even plausibly denied.

This is indicative of the new Perspective.  Suffering mightily from Trump Derangement, he can only fall back on ad hominems when he loses a debate.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on August 20, 2018, 03:54:15 PM
where is the outrage for actual terrorists grooming children to shoot up schools in new mexico?  not to mention murdering a 3 year old and then getting out on bail?  anyone listening?

Quote
Man arrested at 'extremist Muslim' New Mexico compound was training kids to commit school shootings: documents

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/08/man-arrested-at-new-mexico-compound-was-training-kids-to-commit-school-shootings-court-documents-say.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/08/man-arrested-at-new-mexico-compound-was-training-kids-to-commit-school-shootings-court-documents-say.html)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Liar Loan on August 29, 2018, 10:26:07 PM
We've been lied to repeatedly this year.  Though NPR does lean too far to the left, they do strive for accuracy in their reporting.

NPR: The School Shootings That Weren't
Quote
How many times per year does a gun go off in an American school?

We should know. But we don't.

This spring the U.S. Education Department reported that in the 2015-2016 school year, "nearly 240 schools ... reported at least 1 incident involving a school-related shooting." The number is far higher than most other estimates.

But NPR reached out to every one of those schools repeatedly over the course of three months and found that more than two-thirds of these reported incidents never happened. Child Trends, a nonpartisan nonprofit research organization, assisted NPR in analyzing data from the government's Civil Rights Data Collection.

We were able to confirm just 11 reported incidents, either directly with schools or through media reports.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on August 29, 2018, 10:52:38 PM
And more fake “facts”.

Shock study claiming U.S. accounts for nearly one-third of mass shootings 'botched,' researcher says

A shock 2016 study argued that the U.S. accounted for nearly one-third of all mass shootings, sparking global headlines about the dangers of an American gun culture.

Now another researcher says the original study “botched” the data.

John R. Lott Jr., president of the Crime Prevention Research Center, crunched the numbers and said his count shows that the U.S. had less than 3 percent of the world’s mass public shootings over a 15-year period.

That is smaller than the 4.6 percent of the world’s population that the U.S. accounts for — and way less than the 31 percent of global mass shooters that Adam Lankford, a professor at the University of Alabama, claimed in his widely publicized studies.

“If you fix the data, you get the opposite result from him,” Mr. Lott said. “He has the United States way out there, all by itself in terms of mass public shootings. He’s simply wrong. The United States, when I go through this, ranks 58th in the world in the rate of mass public shootings and 62nd in the world in terms of murders from mass public shootings.”

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/29/john-lott-jr-adam-lankford-botched-study-claiming-/ (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/29/john-lott-jr-adam-lankford-botched-study-claiming-/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on October 19, 2018, 11:30:37 AM
So, here we are at the elections and not only is gun control NOT an issue, it actually has fallen in support since the shootings in February...All to easy to predict, no game changing trend to see here.

Six in 10 Americans Support Stricter Gun Laws


61% of Americans favor stricter gun control, down from 67% in March
87% of Democrats, 31% of Republicans support tougher gun laws
28% of Americans support a handgun ban

https://news.gallup.com/poll/243797/six-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws.aspx (https://news.gallup.com/poll/243797/six-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws.aspx)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on November 05, 2018, 09:11:10 PM
Not only is gun control not a top issue in the election tomorrow, it is not an issue at all, you couldn’t find it with a microscope, even I didn’t see that coming.

Gun control might not be top issue in 2018 elections, Florida poll finds

Gun control might not be as powerful an issue as many people expected after the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School massacre, a new poll shows.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-florida-poll-gun-control-low-interest-20180509-story.html (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-florida-poll-gun-control-low-interest-20180509-story.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on November 06, 2018, 05:50:44 AM
Not only is gun control not a top issue in the election tomorrow, it is not an issue at all, you couldn’t find it with a microscope, even I didn’t see that coming.

Gun control might not be top issue in 2018 elections, Florida poll finds

Gun control might not be as powerful an issue as many people expected after the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School massacre, a new poll shows.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-florida-poll-gun-control-low-interest-20180509-story.html (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-florida-poll-gun-control-low-interest-20180509-story.html)

remember the highschool kids that went on the beatles tour for a month after the shooting?  yea, me neither
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on November 13, 2018, 12:55:45 PM
This is just a bunch of worthless virtue signaling garbage.  Just like last time, not much will change.  This corporate jump on the bandwagon will loose steam again.  All a bunch of PR/BS, "but this time we really mean it!"  LOL!!  Lets see if any of this stands in 6 months.

Dick's banned assault rifles after the Newtown school shooting — and later reversed the decision

Dick's Sporting Goods said Wednesday it would stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores.
The chain also banned the weapons after the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
Dick's ultimately started selling the weapons again, however.
Dick's says the ban is permanent this time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/dicks-reversed-ban-on-assault-rifles-after-newtown-school-shooting-2018-2)

Like I said then...corporate virtue signalling that leads nowhere.  This issue was such a driving force in the election, not....

How to Stop the Corporate Virtue-Signaling Before It’s Too Late

Just before Halloween, the U.S. streaming giant Hulu sent out a tweet: “If you’re dressing up for #Huluween this year, this is your reminder to wear a costume that is culturally appropriate and respectful to others. Let’s celebrate the holiday in a way that we can all enjoy.”

The question of whether some Halloween costumes are “appropriate” is one of the hottest flashpoints in the culture wars right now. The mainstream media, university professors and left-wing politicians seem to agree that dressing up as people of another race is inherently offensive while a large proportion of regular people believe that costumes are only offensive if there’s an intent to mock. Unsurprisingly, Hulu’s finger-wagging tweet pissed off a lot of people who wondered why a streaming service was suddenly sounding like a social justice warrior. Hulu deleted the tweet.

.... corporate leaders might simply quote economist Milton Friedman instead. “The social responsibility of business,” he once said, “is to increase its profits.”

https://quillette.com/2018/11/13/how-to-stop-the-corporate-virtue-signaling-before-its-too-late/ (https://quillette.com/2018/11/13/how-to-stop-the-corporate-virtue-signaling-before-its-too-late/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on January 02, 2019, 08:48:43 PM
Well my mistake...something may get done after all...

Parkland shooting commission recommends teachers should be ARMED, says cops should have to confront active shooters in the future and slams deputies who shied away during the attack that left 17 dead

The 15-member Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Commission on Wednesday unanimously approved a 446-page report
It contains a proposal to allow teachers who volunteer and undergo extensive training to be armed
The proposal is now in the hands of Governor Rick Scott, governor-elect Ron DeSantis and the Legislature
It is highly critical of the Broward County sheriff's office and recommends they change its policy so deputies are required to confront active shooters 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6548753/Commission-OKs-recommendation-arm-teachers-Florida.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6548753/Commission-OKs-recommendation-arm-teachers-Florida.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on January 23, 2019, 02:45:28 PM
And again...prayers and thoughts

Quote
At least five people were killed when a gunman opened fire in a SunTrust Bank in Sebring, Florida, on Wednesday, police said.

The 21-year-old suspect, Zephen Xaver, barricaded himself inside before later surrendering to authorities, police said.

The suspect had contacted authorities and told them that he fired shots inside the bank, sending officers rushing to the scene around 12:30 p.m., the Sebring Police Department said.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/suspect-fires-shots-inside-florida-bank-barricades-himself-211703620--abc-news-topstories.html
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on January 23, 2019, 03:10:45 PM
Indeed.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/3-suspects-dead-another-injured-after-homeowner-opens-fire-during-east-houston-break-in/285-29b21dcb-0f08-43bb-8d1e-6bd7d8b559e2 (https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/3-suspects-dead-another-injured-after-homeowner-opens-fire-during-east-houston-break-in/285-29b21dcb-0f08-43bb-8d1e-6bd7d8b559e2)

Also: This qualifies statistically as a "mass shooting" that everyone pearl clutches about. I'd beg to differ on this one. 

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on January 23, 2019, 03:15:59 PM
He can talk about guns but lost the midterm thread argument. So predictable. It really is.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on February 01, 2019, 11:45:53 AM

I support this practice as a "reasonable gun control measure" - providing action is taken within some reasonable boundaries - example: If I knock on a an X=GF door once do I get my gun taken away? Hope not. If I knock all the time, yes, certainly this should be the case.

One thing noticeable is that some of these are “voluntary surrenders”. Not all of the confiscations are police grabs. I wonder if the voluntary ones can also get their weapons back? Not saying they should, but if they can.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of these weapons were unregistered.


http://www.sdnews.com/view/full_story/27625737/article-City-Attorney-obtains-100th-gun-violence-restraining-order?instance=sdnews (http://www.sdnews.com/view/full_story/27625737/article-City-Attorney-obtains-100th-gun-violence-restraining-order?instance=sdnews)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on February 14, 2019, 09:05:35 AM
I agree, you wanna change gun laws then you have to amend the constitution..not gonna happen.  All this is spin and talk. In the end nothing will change we move on to the next cycle.  Someone will trot out my most hated quote "This is not us" or "this is not who we are" when in actuality..."this is exactly us!", learn to live with it.

And a year later...nothing...as predicted.

A year after US school massacre, gun control remains elusive

https://news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/02/14/19/a-year-after-us-school-massacre-gun-control-remains-elusive (https://news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/02/14/19/a-year-after-us-school-massacre-gun-control-remains-elusive)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on May 07, 2019, 04:38:44 PM
nothing to be done again: 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/police-respond-reports-school-shooting-colorado-202604626--abc-news-topstories.html

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/A9n6eUnn50SvAiOCqLTqXg--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NjA4O2g9MzQy/https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/stem-shooting-11-ht-jc-190507_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kenkoko on May 07, 2019, 05:23:00 PM
nothing to be done again: 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/police-respond-reports-school-shooting-colorado-202604626--abc-news-topstories.html

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/A9n6eUnn50SvAiOCqLTqXg--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NjA4O2g9MzQy/https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/stem-shooting-11-ht-jc-190507_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg)

I'm from Taiwan where 0% of people own guns and live happy lives. Here in the US we have 400 million guns, enough to arm every men,women, and child.

I will never understand why Americans are willing to put their kids through this.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on May 07, 2019, 05:46:12 PM

I will never understand why Americans are willing to put their kids through this.

Cause dang it..one day your government may come and take you away and you want to be able to defend yourself!
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 07, 2019, 09:59:21 PM
They could try.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 07, 2019, 10:12:13 PM
Crazy comes in all stripes.

Liberal, Trump-hating shooter, 18, is identified as one of two students who pulled gun from a guitar case and shot dead one Denver high school classmate and injured seven others

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7003307/Two-injured-shots-fired-Denver-school.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7003307/Two-injured-shots-fired-Denver-school.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on May 08, 2019, 05:45:10 AM
That was a "wow" article on the shooters.

These killings won't get the usual media coverage because:

A) The shooters didn't use an AR-15

B) The shooter was a leftist.

C) The other shooter was "Transitioning"

Or D) All of the above because these facts go against narrative.

I know some howl everytime its brought up, but the majority of all mass shooters have lived through parents who have divorced, therapy drug use, or both.  We see this again here with this school shooting. Rather than taking guns away from the law abiding, narrowing any gun control first steps down to a few tell tale indicators might be a wise pathway forward.

My .02c
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on May 08, 2019, 08:11:27 AM
That was a "wow" article on the shooters.

These killings won't get the usual media coverage because:

A) The shooters didn't use an AR-15

B) The shooter was a leftist.

C) The other shooter was "Transitioning"

Or D) All of the above because these facts go against narrative.

I know some howl everytime its brought up, but the majority of all mass shooters have lived through parents who have divorced, therapy drug use, or both.  We see this again here with this school shooting. Rather than taking guns away from the law abiding, narrowing any gun control first steps down to a few tell tale indicators might be a wise pathway forward.

My .02c

Why is that a "wow" article?   Who talked about taking guns away from everyone? 

So your conclusion is that we should take away the rights of those who have divorced parents and/or use therapy drugs instead of gun control?   

Weird that it's the first reaction you have on something like this...but it's basically the reaction I get from most gun owners..."WHAT ABOUT MY GUNS".
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Soylent Green Is People on May 08, 2019, 08:28:15 AM
It's a "Wow" article because if you read or listen to just about any US based media outlet, one would have thought the shooters suddenly woke up yesterday morning and decided to go on a Columbine style rampage. KNX (CBS News) had this story as their lead at 8:00 AM. Zero info on motive, weapons used, and other tropes found in the anti-2A movement. The media silence about these key factors speaks loudly about agenda, and not about preventing violence.

Yes, if your on psychotropic meds your access to weapons should be limited to tasers. Yes, if you are under 18, the child of divorced parents exhibit anti-social behavior, and if the parents are gun owners they should be counseled about what the indicators are for violence. Yes, also, parents of shooters must be jailed for negligence. Do not pass "Go", Do not Collect $200. Straight to Jail.

That IMHO is a starting point for reasonable gun control.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on May 08, 2019, 08:44:57 AM
It's a "Wow" article because if you read or listen to just about any US based media outlet, one would have thought the shooters suddenly woke up yesterday morning and decided to go on a Columbine style rampage. KNX (CBS News) had this story as their lead at 8:00 AM. Zero info on motive, weapons used, and other tropes found in the anti-2A movement. The media silence about these key factors speaks loudly about agenda, and not about preventing violence.

Yes, if your on psychotropic meds your access to weapons should be limited to tasers. Yes, if you are under 18, the child of divorced parents exhibit anti-social behavior, and if the parents are gun owners they should be counseled about what the indicators are for violence. Yes, also, parents of shooters must be jailed for negligence. Do not pass "Go", Do not Collect $200. Straight to Jail.

That IMHO is a starting point for reasonable gun control.

Why are we talking about the media...are any of us a member of the media?  Did anyone talk about the media?  It seems like that's the first thing that gun owners jump to.  I am about solutions, not spin.

What is consider psychotropic meds?  What percentage of kids/people who take "psychotropic meds" shoot up schools or other people?

I would say that many children who have divorced parents exhibit anti-social behavior.  What is considered anti-social behavior?  So if the parent is busy working 3 jobs to support his or her family because he or she is divorced and the kid goes shoots people, the parent should be jailed..no questions asked?

Weird that you accept and promote this level of rights intrusions on children and parents but not as to whether we should have similar levels of rights intrusion for gunowners.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 08, 2019, 07:59:47 PM
This kid has been screaming for help, someone let him down.

Transgender Denver high school student is identified as 'second gunman who killed one classmate and wounded eight', as friends refer to him as a 'tortured soul' who 'didn't get the support he needed'

Alec McKinney has been accused of killing one classmate, injuring eiAlec McKinney has been accused of killing one classmate, injuring eight others
Allegedly stormed STEM School Highlands Ranch with friend Devon Erickson
Authorities have been describing McKinney as a female juvenile named Maya
But friends confirmed McKinney identifies as male and prefers to be called 'Alec'
When McKinney appeared in court, attorney said he preferred the pronoun 'he'
Friends have taken to McKinney's Instagram to reveal he was suffering from mental health issues and 'desperately needed' help

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7008381/Classmates-reveal-second-Denver-gunman-transgender-didnt-support-needed.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7008381/Classmates-reveal-second-Denver-gunman-transgender-didnt-support-needed.html)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 09, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
These kids get it right...

STEM students storm out, chant ‘mental health’ when gun-control activist, Dems politicize vigil for victims

Dozens, if not hundreds, of STEM School Highlands Ranch students walked out in anger Wednesday evening after two congressional Democrats and a far-left group politicized a vigil for a student who was killed during a mass shooting at the Colorado school Tuesday.

As noted by Saavedra, she demonized pro-Second Amendment politicians, asked the students to elect Democrats into office and requested that they raise money for gun control advocates.

After walking out on her politicized speech, the students reportedly chanted “mental health,” held their own vigil outside and then later returned to the auditorium to blast Democrats and their allies with Moms Demand Action for disrespecting them.

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/05/09/stem-students-storm-out-chant-mental-health-when-gun-control-activist-politicians-hijack-vigil-for-victims-753054 (https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/05/09/stem-students-storm-out-chant-mental-health-when-gun-control-activist-politicians-hijack-vigil-for-victims-753054)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 15, 2019, 11:10:02 AM
That was a "wow" article on the shooters.

These killings won't get the usual media coverage because:

A) The shooters didn't use an AR-15

B) The shooter was a leftist.

C) The other shooter was "Transitioning"

Or D) All of the above because these facts go against narrative.

I know some howl everytime its brought up, but the majority of all mass shooters have lived through parents who have divorced, therapy drug use, or both.  We see this again here with this school shooting. Rather than taking guns away from the law abiding, narrowing any gun control first steps down to a few tell tale indicators might be a wise pathway forward.

My .02c


Wow, SGIP, you called it almost perfectly...

Why the Media Suddenly Lost Interest in the Latest School Shooting

After the shooting, other than some virtue signaling by the media, the story has left the front pages, as the narrative may be inconvenient for the leftist agenda. CNN and MSNBC have lived up to their reputation as “drive-by media” by quickly moving on. No interviews with David Hogg or other gun control fanatics. So, what are some of the inconvenient aspects to this story that the media would prefer to drive by without any discussion or analysis?

Let’s start with the weapons. The two shooters, “opened fire with handguns that were concealed in a guitar case”, as reported by the Daily Mail in an unexpected good faith effort at honest journalism. Handguns? What happened to those evil AR-15’s or “assault weapons” that Democrats and the media constantly warn about? These are what the Huffington Post calls “weapons of war.”
This was not the narrative that the media wanted to report on. They would prefer David Hogg ranting and raving, blaming Trump, the NRA, and toxic white masculinity for the shooting. How inconvenient that the affected students chanted “mental health” and didn’t join in the predictable politicization of a tragedy by the left.

One of the two shooters didn’t fit this mold. He was anti-Christian, critical of President Trump, a registered Democrat, and supportive of left-wing Occupy Democrats. In other words, his views were perfectly aligned with the Democrat Party base, a perspective big media would prefer to avoid discussing.


https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/why_the_media_suddenly_lost_interest_in_the_latest_school_shooting.html#ixzz5o1Awdpq2  (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/why_the_media_suddenly_lost_interest_in_the_latest_school_shooting.html#ixzz5o1Awdpq2)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on May 15, 2019, 11:45:52 AM
Always making excuses.
 The other post blames it on the divorce parents. I guess we can also look at the food diet of shooters. Maybe that had too much soda or too much junk food and their brain is not acting right. Lol (Come on give me a break!)

It’s not the same as we grew up and before that. Times are changing. I repeat times are changing.

Fix America because it’s like out of control. (Opioids and violence)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on May 15, 2019, 11:55:38 AM
Not excuses..explanations...broken family is yet another factor here. I don't think these kids had an ideal family situation.

Speaking of violent behavior, the father of one of the shooters is a twice deported illegal from Mexico, jailed previously for domestic violence against the shooter’s mother. Illegals are revered by the Democrat Party and any connection between an illegal and the shooting will be dutifully ignored by most of the media.

Lastly one of the Colorado shooters was transgender, a female transitioning into a male. I’m sure there is a specific gender identity term for such a person, but I am not woke enough to know what that term is. Suffice it to say, a female becoming a male will be taking testosterone. There is scientific evidence of an association between higher testosterone levels and aggressive or violent behavior.

In the mainstream media, transgenders are the highest form of human evolution. It would be most inconvenient to raise even the possibility of an association between gender transitioning and the recent school shooting, so don’t expect Meet the Press or Face the Nation to discuss any of this.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: eyephone on May 15, 2019, 12:25:21 PM
Times are changing. You no longer take a stage coach to travel. I just hear excuses.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on May 16, 2019, 10:28:30 AM
In the mainstream media, transgenders are the highest form of human evolution.
I'm an LGBTQ enthusiast:
Liberty
Guns
Bible
Trump
Q (BBQ)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on July 09, 2019, 10:00:59 AM
New Zealand has just banned civilian ownership of semi-automatic weapons.

Within 48 hours of the country’s worst shooting.

This is how it’s done.

...and it turns out just words again...nothing really changes.

Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme
As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over.

Traditionally relaxed in its approach to firearms regulation, and enjoying a low crime rate, New Zealand has no firearms registration rule. That means authorities have no easy way of knowing what guns are in circulation or who owns them.

"These weapons are unlikely to be confiscated by police because they don't know of their existence," Philippa Yasbek of Gun Control NZ admitted. "These will become black-market weapons if their owners choose not to comply with the law and become criminals instead."

"In Australia it is estimated that only about 20% of all banned self-loading rifles have been given up to the authorities," wrote Franz Csaszar, professor of criminology at the University of Vienna, after Australia's 1996 compensated confiscation of firearms following a mass murder in Port Arthur, Tasmania. Csaszar put the number of illegally retained arms in Australia at between two and five million.

"Many members of the community still possess grey-market firearms because they did not surrender these during the 1996–97 gun buyback," the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission conceded in a 2016 report. "The Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission continues to conservatively estimate that there are more than 260,000 firearms in the illicit firearms market."

And who can claim to be surprised? By refusing to comply with restrictions, New Zealand gun owners are just following in the footsteps of their counterparts in Australia, Europe, and the United States. In each of these places, and many more besides, gun owners ignored laws, kept their property out of sight, and frustrated efforts to disarm them.

https://reason.com/2019/07/08/noncompliance-kneecaps-new-zealands-gun-control-scheme/ (https://reason.com/2019/07/08/noncompliance-kneecaps-new-zealands-gun-control-scheme/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on July 09, 2019, 11:46:22 AM
you are posting one random online opinion pieces and claiming "nothing changes" .   WTF do you know about on the ground reality in new zealand ?

BTW , where is NRA TV now ?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on July 09, 2019, 11:55:35 AM
Take the word from someone who would know then...

New Zealand struggles to enforce gun-control law
Pro-gun groups threaten legal action as government buyback program falters

Philippa Yasbek, co-founder of Gun Control NZ... Yasbek pointed out that some of the banned weapons, including AR-15 rifles, fall into Category “A” in the New Zealand licensing system, which means they were not required to be registered in police databases and as such will be impossible to trace.

“These weapons are unlikely to be confiscated by police because they don’t know of their existence,” she said

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/30/new-zealand-struggles-to-enforce-gun-control-law/ (https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/30/new-zealand-struggles-to-enforce-gun-control-law/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on July 09, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
you are telling me that every country has some illegal weapons that never be eliminated / seized  ?  wow that's definitely news , thanks.   
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on July 09, 2019, 12:39:09 PM
No, i'm saying sweeping gun control legislation and knee jerk political virtue signalling produced 700 guns out of 1,200,000 guns being turned over....that is tantamount to....nothing changes. That is news...for some.

Over 500 guns handed in since ban, but others might not surrender them

Since the Government's decision to ban semi-automatic guns in April, hundreds of firearms have been handed over to police.

Approximately 530 firearms have been handed in following the announcement of the ban, a police spokesperson has confirmed.

However, police are anticipating a number of people with banned firearms in their possession won't surrender them, according to documents obtained by Stuff in an OIA.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/113075749/over-500-guns-handed-in-since-ban-but-others-might-not-surrender-them (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/113075749/over-500-guns-handed-in-since-ban-but-others-might-not-surrender-them)

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on July 09, 2019, 04:44:03 PM
you are telling me that every country has some illegal weapons that never be eliminated / seized  ?  wow that's definitely news , thanks.

700 turned in out of 1,200,000 out there seem to be more than "some."

NZ never intended the ban to work. You can't go from unfettered gun possession to ban in a single leap. That's why gun control conspiracies in the US always claim they just want to do background checks, etc. and they have no intention of taking away anyone's guns. Of course, the purpose of background checks and registrations is to compile a list for future confiscation. Good thing people are not as dumb as Liberals think they are.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on July 09, 2019, 04:55:08 PM
You were right about one thing fortune, this kind of guilt driven, virtue signaling, liberal failure is “how it’s done!”
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on July 09, 2019, 05:07:56 PM
Yet , no One is willing to talk about why NRA TV is dead

Anyways — Keep clutching to your old world views - you guys can afford to since many of you are self employed and can live out your fantasies on right leaning forums like these and likeminded Facebook groups etc .

But out in the real world , norms are changing fast and there is only so much change you can hold off clinging on to a thin undemocratic senate majority. 

Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kings on July 09, 2019, 05:22:50 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.

the self-serving, sjw way of life that took course over the past 10 years is what brought us all trump, and clutching to failed emotionally-driven way of life will lead to another 4 years of the big t  8)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on July 09, 2019, 05:45:20 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.

the self-serving, sjw way of life that took course over the past 10 years is what brought us all trump, and clutching to failed emotionally-driven way of life will lead to another 4 years of the big t  8)

It's always darkest before the light...last gasp of the old guard.  In 20 years...demographics will make the country permanently democratic and progressive.  GOP using every page in the book including gerrymeandering and voting fraud to keep in power but the day will come when the dinosaurs die.

US was where California was 30 years ago...same demographic shift...same reactionary grasping of pearls. 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on July 09, 2019, 05:46:56 PM
Who care about NRA TV?  Certainly not me. It is not needed. As I told you. Nothing has changed, no need to push back against air. Like the start of this thread, no changes.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on July 09, 2019, 05:53:49 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.
You mean like:
Evidence
Responsibility
Logic
Humor
Patriotism
Etc.?
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on July 09, 2019, 05:55:12 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.
You mean like:
Evidence
Responsibility
Logic
Humor
Patriotism
Etc.?

All things that Trump supports and advocates? 
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Happiness on July 09, 2019, 06:19:02 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.

the self-serving, sjw way of life that took course over the past 10 years is what brought us all trump, and clutching to failed emotionally-driven way of life will lead to another 4 years of the big t  8)

It's always darkest before the light...last gasp of the old guard.  In 20 years...demographics will make the country permanently democratic and progressive.  GOP using every page in the book including gerrymeandering and voting fraud to keep in power but the day will come when the dinosaurs die.

US was where California was 30 years ago...same demographic shift...same reactionary grasping of pearls.
History has shown over and over again that predictions based on the conventional wisdom is usually wrong.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Irvinecommuter on July 09, 2019, 06:36:54 PM
Just think of all the stuff you guys took for granted even 10 years ago that is no longer acceptable.

the self-serving, sjw way of life that took course over the past 10 years is what brought us all trump, and clutching to failed emotionally-driven way of life will lead to another 4 years of the big t  8)

It's always darkest before the light...last gasp of the old guard.  In 20 years...demographics will make the country permanently democratic and progressive.  GOP using every page in the book including gerrymeandering and voting fraud to keep in power but the day will come when the dinosaurs die.

US was where California was 30 years ago...same demographic shift...same reactionary grasping of pearls.
History has shown over and over again that predictions based on the conventional wisdom is usually wrong.

It's not conventional wisdom...it's history and math.  Go back to the 1980s and the California was going through the same cultural debate that the country is having...we had our own anti-immigrant era with Pete Wilson and 187/215.  California was solidly Republican between 1952 and 1992 (exception of JFK) and then it wasn't...now the GOP is almost gone.

Orange County was a GOP bastion and now, it's purple leaning blue...it will be solid blue in a few more years. 

At that time, prayers and thoughts to those old guards.


Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: fortune11 on July 09, 2019, 08:26:57 PM
I can tell you this — there is certainly a difference between normal Americans and MAGA clan represented here. For instance ,

If the New York / Southern district Epstein case proves Bill Clinton is a child rapist, normal Americans will turn against Bill Clinton

But if the same Epstein case proves Trump is a child rapist, Trump supporters will turn against the SDNY ...

And Fox News / drudge / breitbart will provide ready made permission slips in form of new conspiracy theories so these crusty old supporters can merrily continue believing what they want to be true instead of actual reality

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 23, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
I agree, you wanna change gun laws then you have to amend the constitution..not gonna happen.  All this is spin and talk. In the end nothing will change we move on to the next cycle.  Someone will trot out my most hated quote "This is not us" or "this is not who we are" when in actuality..."this is exactly us!", learn to live with it.

Any bets on loads of talk and nothing of substance being done again?  Nothing changes.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kenkoko on March 23, 2021, 11:54:14 PM
"No Way To Prevent This"

says the only country on earth where this regularly happens

I guess mass shootings are a small price to pay for the freedom to carry out mass shootings.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: nosuchreality on March 24, 2021, 10:49:47 AM
Unfortunately the mass shootings are far more complex than people want to think about.  Gun control works great in some places, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and not so great in others, I,e most of Latin America.

Some things, IMHO, are just stupid, I.e. GA’s buy and walk out the door with gun and ammo in under 30 minutes.  And frankly, private sale, gun show loopholes requiring no checks.

I know plenty of gun owners with AR style 5.56 rifles.  They’re safe, responsible and I’d trust them with it around me.  There are a few others that it’s a glorified macho toy and they have about as much respect for it as the guy down the block chugging a twelve pack of brews and lighting off illegal firework mortars on 4th of July.  I’ll be busy if the offer to go out shooting comes up. 

While many have quite a few guns of various sorts, none have branched over to the realm, to my knowledge, of collecting mass quantities of ammo, hordes of high capacity magazines, body armor, gear mods like bump stocks or enough tactical weapons and gear to outfit a platoon.

To me it seems like background checks on all gun transfers and some reasonable thresholds for tracking on total numbers or speed of acquiring should warrant a follow up in person screen.

Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on March 24, 2021, 10:57:15 AM
Nothing will change on this topic till this generation dies out.  Just going to have to wait.

Same problem and no real solution (Just what is an assault rifle?)...will have the same outcome...nuttinhoney.


Biden's Gun Control Proposals Make Little Sense As a Response to the Mass Shooting in Boulder
It is hard to see how an "assault weapon" ban or expanded background checks could have prevented this attack.

President Joe Biden has revived his call for a new federal "assault weapon" ban and expanded background checks following yesterday's mass shooting at a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, which killed 10 people. "We can ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines," Biden tweeted today. "We can close loopholes in our gun background check system. This is not a partisan issue—it's an American issue that will save lives. Congress needs to act." As usual, those proposals make little sense as a response to a crime that supposedly illustrates the need for them.

According to the arrest affidavit, the suspect in the Boulder attack was armed with an AR-15-style "rifle" and a "semiautomatic handgun." The affidavit says he bought a Ruger AR-556 pistol, which has a 10.5-inch barrel and a "stabilizing brace," six days before the shooting. While it's not clear whether that was the "rifle" described by police and witnesses, either the Ruger pistol or an AR-15-style rifle would have been covered by the latest federal "assault weapon" bill and by a local ban that a Colorado judge blocked earlier this month.

https://reason.com/2021/03/23/bidens-gun-control-proposals-make-little-sense-as-a-response-to-the-mass-shooting-in-boulder/ (https://reason.com/2021/03/23/bidens-gun-control-proposals-make-little-sense-as-a-response-to-the-mass-shooting-in-boulder/)
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: Kenkoko on March 24, 2021, 11:46:21 AM
Unfortunately the mass shootings are far more complex than people want to think about.  Gun control works great in some places, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and not so great in others, I,e most of Latin America.

Some things, IMHO, are just stupid, I.e. GA’s buy and walk out the door with gun and ammo in under 30 minutes.  And frankly, private sale, gun show loopholes requiring no checks.

I know plenty of gun owners with AR style 5.56 rifles.  They’re safe, responsible and I’d trust them with it around me.  There are a few others that it’s a glorified macho toy and they have about as much respect for it as the guy down the block chugging a twelve pack of brews and lighting off illegal firework mortars on 4th of July.  I’ll be busy if the offer to go out shooting comes up. 

While many have quite a few guns of various sorts, none have branched over to the realm, to my knowledge, of collecting mass quantities of ammo, hordes of high capacity magazines, body armor, gear mods like bump stocks or enough tactical weapons and gear to outfit a platoon.

To me it seems like background checks on all gun transfers and some reasonable thresholds for tracking on total numbers or speed of acquiring should warrant a follow up in person screen.

It is a complex issue.

Support for common sense safety laws like background checks & red flag laws is bipartisan and now have close to 90% American support.

But those will only help marginally. They won't do much to stop mass shootings. Not in a country with 350 million - 400 million firearms.

IMO, we won't make meaningful progress until the majority of conservatives decouple gun ownership from US conservatism.

American conservatism is a weird hodgepodge of ideas and values from the outside looking in.

Australia's strict gun control laws were passed by a conservative right wing party. Universal healthcare in Taiwan was passed by a ultra capitalist conservative party.

But there's hope if you look at recent polling trends. Massive increased levels of support for more stringent gun laws can be found among young Americans regardless of political affiliation.

This is very similar to same sex marriage. The hill just reported on a poll showing majority of Republicans support same-sex marriage for the first time in history. The significant change is coming from young Republicans not older ones.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/544500-poll-majority-of-republicans-support-same-sex-marriage-for-the-first-time

Real meaningful change will take a long time, probably multiple decades. It's not happening until the old and stubborn dies off. We probably won't even live to see it, but hopefully my kid and yours will.
Title: Re: Once again...nothing to be done but prayers and thoughts
Post by: morekaos on April 09, 2021, 09:00:06 AM
Taa-daaaa!  Take a big bite of the nothing burger and hope and pray more.


Biden Pushes Gun Control, But Legislation Is Unlikely


Biden Pushes Gun Control, But Legislation Is Unlikely
.By Philip Wegmann - RCP StaffApril 09, 2021
Biden Pushes Gun Control, But Legislation Is Unlikely(AP Photo/Andrew Harnik)
The White House Rose Garden was an idyllic setting on Thursday -- incongruously so, given the brutal problem being addressed. There, President Biden announced a slate of executive actions to combat what he called an “epidemic” of gun violence.

“Let me say it again,” he told the assembled mothers and fathers of children horrifically killed at Newtown, Conn., and Parkland, Fla. “Gun violence in this country is an epidemic.” Those gathered signaled their approval with applause as Biden added that, what’s more, “it is an international embarrassment.”


Biden ran as a gun control candidate, someone with a record of both successes and failures on the issue. As a senator, he helped pass the Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act in 1993 and the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994. He could not get more comprehensive changes into law as vice president.

“I know it's painful and frustrating that we haven't made the progress that we'd hoped for,” Biden admitted Thursday as cherry blossoms swayed in the spring breeze behind him. “But it took five years to get the Brady bill passed, and it took even more years to work to pass the assault weapons ban.  And it saved lives.”

His message, now as president, is that he is willing to work with Congress, but he is also moving on his own. Flanked by Vice President Harris and Attorney General Merrick Garland, Biden announced half a dozen actions.

He will tighten regulations around “ghost guns” -- firearms assembled by hobbyists from parts that often lack serial numbers -- requiring that buyers go through a background check. He also called on the Department of Justice to propose a rule that could outlaw pistol brace devices, specialty slings that replace standard stocks, like the one used last month in a Boulder, Colo., mass shooting.

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Biden also ordered the DOJ to issue an annual report on firearms trafficking and to draft legislative templates for states to follow in passing “red flag” laws that would allow family members or law enforcement to remove firearms from anyone a court determined to be at risk to themselves or others.

The president also announced his intention to nominate David Chipman, a gun-control activist and law enforcement veteran, to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

All of those actions, Biden argued, were meant to fulfill his duty to protect public safety. “My job, the job of any president, is to protect the American people,” he said. “Whether Congress acts or not, I'm going to use all the resources at my disposal … to keep the American people safe from gun violence.” In the end, though, he may be limited to what he can do from the Oval Office.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/04/09/biden_pushes_gun_control_but_legislation_is_unlikely_145560.html (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/04/09/biden_pushes_gun_control_but_legislation_is_unlikely_145560.html)
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