Impressions of our new school

R

RandomG

New member
I posted this on a different forum a few days ago, so I am copy pasting. Just some observations for now, things may change along the way.

I moved to Irvine from FL two months ago, and really thought, after reading so much about it on different forums, that Irvine schools would be much better academically. I was so excited about all that Asian competition. Here is what I have found: my 4th grader is bored to death in her math and ELA classes. Kids are not very advanced, and in fact the teacher has to focus too much on the kids who are slower, sacrificing the kids who need to be challenged. The GATE concept is weird. They do get just a little bit more advanced stuff (if you are familiar with the GO Math books, it's the Enrich one). Hardly any homework, my kid is done in about 5 minutes. In FL they have the concept of subject acceleration, where if you are in 4th grade but advanced in math, they test you and they place you in a 5th grade class only for math. I asked about that here, they told me they only offer GATE. Which at this level is a joke, maybe it does make a difference in middle school. I do 6th grade math at home with my daughter, Singapore books, 6th grade Go Math, just to keep her motivated and progressing. But the school math class is a complete waste of time. My son is in 6th grade. Since we started school on January 9th, he has had homework from his textbook maybe twice. For one entire month they worked on a perimeter and area project that could have been done in one weekend. The tests he's been taking are basic skills tests, which is just that, basic skills. For the whole month of February they worked on ratios. I have no idea how they are going to get through the book, maybe they don't even care about the textbook. My son, being a preteen boy, is in heaven. 20 min of homework per day, max, all subjects. Math in FL was super advanced, in 6th grade they were covering 7th and 8th grade topics. Oh, and it's a K-8 school, but no math club, which I have found kind of strange, this being Irvine.
The facilities are nice, buildings nice and clean, small school, but too many kids for one teacher (32 in 4th grade, they are like sardines in that room).
What I do like is the music program. To get free strings instruction for one hour every day in 6 grade and twice a week in 4th, that saves me lots of private lessons money.

Whatever reputation Irvine has, elementary level up to 6th grade is major hype, in my opinion. Maybe it gets more intense in high school. For high-achieving kids, and parents with high expectations academically (PhDs in Physics and engineering), it's been a disappointment.
 
I want to add that, outside the academic aspect, students and parents are such nice people, and my kids have adjusted socially so well. There is not a single ounce of bullying, kids are really well-mannered, and you can tell they all come from nice homes where there is a lot of focus on their proper upbringing. Teachers are also very nice, another huge plus. Despite the fact the school is almost 60% Asian (we are not), to me it still seems very homogenous, in the sense everyone is on the same page; this comment is for anyone new to Irvine who may be worried about Asians slowly becoming a majority. And the kids are nerdy (in a good way!) and not obsessed with athletics, which for us is a good fit. Overall, socially, a very nice environment.
 
Thanks for telling us about your experience.

Are this a newer Elem or an older one?

Homework also varies by teacher. My kid's class gets more homework than the other classes in the same grade, at least an hour a day.
 
It's one of the older K-8 schools.
I am actually considering volunteering to start a math club at the school. I am surprised they don't have one. I am sure traditional middle schools do. But I wouldn't change K-8 for anything!
It seems like with the K-8 concept, the middle schoolers (who otherwise in a traditional middle school environment may be more tempted to act all "teenage-y"!) are kinder, less defiant, less cocky, maybe because they see the little ones around, and it reminds them of when they were like that not long ago, or maybe because they did not have to change school and adapt to a new place at this delicate age, and have to re-establish whatever reputation they had in elementary school. One of the big advantages of K-8.

 
That's an interesting take on K-8.

I'm still worried about it because of the behavior of Middle Schoolers that I've been told about so I actually prefer the separation. Plus, I'm not sure how they do 7-8 at your school, but it's like high school where you don't stay in one classroom most of the day and move from class to class.
 
Yes they move from class to class starting in 6th grade. Although I know that in Irvine 7th and 8th grade are considered middle school years, at our school they include 6th grade too. So in 6th grade they have one teacher for math, one for ELA, one for science etc. They have middle school dances where 6th grade participates and so on. But it's a small school, so the classrooms are very close together, pretty much next to each other. Also, they do a good job at having elementary years on one side of the building, middle on the other.

I have 3 kids, so for me K-8 is a blessing. Otherwise at some point in my life I would have to deal with 3 different school (one kid in elem, one in middle, one in high school). That would drive me nuts. :) :)
 
I did not realize how distorted is the reputation of Irvine public school education to outsiders.  Irvine schools are competitive, but I don't think we ever claimed the rat race champion spot. If you need a bloodbath environment for your kids, go to NYC, this is probably not the right city for you.  I don't mean it in the disparaging sense, but I am glad you are getting a bit of a relaxed perspective.

First of all, many kids study advanced math in after-school math programs, Kumon, Russian School of Math, private lessons and other less-advertised local hagwons.  Your kid is not the only kid who is bored in public school math classes.  The approach is to focus on average kids, not high achievers like yours.  If you ever taught kids in public school who have different levels, you would understand why. You are welcome to enroll your spectacular math achiever into Russian School of Math (RSM) on Barranca and challenge her with complex differential equations.  But that might not be the goal of every Irvine parent.  You want more math - get more math.  But don't demand it from the public school system.  My daughter goes to RSM for that reason. Most of my friends-parents do some sort of advanced math tutoring after school. 

Second (and related to that), I take big issue with the approach that your brilliant kids are not challenged because the teacher is spending time on "slower" kids. Um?.what do you expect the teacher to do - abandon the average and below average kids and just throw them under the bus to focus on your high achiever?  Not all kids here have science PhDs as parents, some are from disadvantaged backgrounds, challenged family circumstances and struggle with disabilities. For many kids being "average" in math is an achievement in itself, given their circumstances. If your kid is acing all the tests - good for you.  Get a private tutor and challenge him/her all you like.

Yes, it will get more intense in high school.  Keep doing the Singapore math books.  :) 

Third, I remember from your posts extensive complaining about FL school system and the reasons behind moving to Irvine.  Now you are whining about how Irvine schools do not meet your expectations and that FL schools had some sort of accelerated programs that Irvine does not have. Every school system has its advantages and disadvantages.  If you don't like it - use other resources, there are so many in Irvine. Welcome.  We love Irvine.  I hope you and your kids will love it too, despite failing to meet your advanced math standards.
 
RandomG said:
I posted this on a different forum a few days ago, so I am copy pasting. Just some observations for now, things may change along the way.

I moved to Irvine from FL two months ago, and really thought, after reading so much about it on different forums, that Irvine schools would be much better academically. I was so excited about all that Asian competition. Here is what I have found: my 4th grader is bored to death in her math and ELA classes. Kids are not very advanced, and in fact the teacher has to focus too much on the kids who are slower, sacrificing the kids who need to be challenged. The GATE concept is weird. They do get just a little bit more advanced stuff (if you are familiar with the GO Math books, it's the Enrich one). Hardly any homework, my kid is done in about 5 minutes. In FL they have the concept of subject acceleration, where if you are in 4th grade but advanced in math, they test you and they place you in a 5th grade class only for math. I asked about that here, they told me they only offer GATE. Which at this level is a joke, maybe it does make a difference in middle school. I do 6th grade math at home with my daughter, Singapore books, 6th grade Go Math, just to keep her motivated and progressing. But the school math class is a complete waste of time. My son is in 6th grade. Since we started school on January 9th, he has had homework from his textbook maybe twice. For one entire month they worked on a perimeter and area project that could have been done in one weekend. The tests he's been taking are basic skills tests, which is just that, basic skills. For the whole month of February they worked on ratios. I have no idea how they are going to get through the book, maybe they don't even care about the textbook. My son, being a preteen boy, is in heaven. 20 min of homework per day, max, all subjects. Math in FL was super advanced, in 6th grade they were covering 7th and 8th grade topics. Oh, and it's a K-8 school, but no math club, which I have found kind of strange, this being Irvine.
The facilities are nice, buildings nice and clean, small school, but too many kids for one teacher (32 in 4th grade, they are like sardines in that room).
What I do like is the music program. To get free strings instruction for one hour every day in 6 grade and twice a week in 4th, that saves me lots of private lessons money.

Whatever reputation Irvine has, elementary level up to 6th grade is major hype, in my opinion. Maybe it gets more intense in high school. For high-achieving kids, and parents with high expectations academically (PhDs in Physics and engineering), it's been a disappointment.
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Just because kids score well on tests, doesn't mean the school teaches at an accelerated level. Many students have outside tutoring or academic classes (kumon, etc) but in school it's just the basics.

One thing to keep in mind is high school gets more competitive. Specifically, Northwood and Uni (and maybe Portola Springs when it's more established) is more competitive than Irvine or Woodbridge and parents who don't want the competitiveness have specifically bought or rented in the Woodbridge/Irvine High school areas. Their kids go to the feeder schools for one of those high schools and maybe the elementary schools are a reflection of that???? (Not saying those kids are lower academically, it's just been pointed out by many people here on TI that some choose to have their kids go to those two high schools and avoid the others due to the competitiveness).

Hopefully you are renting in the area of the high school you would like to go to. It's always less stressful for the kids to move into high school with some friends rather than a new school, new format and no established friends.
 
Wow, Veronica, sorry if I came across as some stuck up parent of a spectacular math genius, who likes to complain how the math level n schools is not good enough for them. I just wanted to show that I was somewhat puzzled by the inconsistency between all the stories on all the forums and articles I've read about the Asian dominated schools (whether it's Irvine, or San Marino, or Cupertino) and reality, or at least reality through my small lens, a 4th grade classroom. And I also kind of wanted to give a heads-up to other families who would love to live in Irvine (which by the way is a great city), but are hesitant to do so because of this touted ultra-competitiveness that one reads about everywhere.
BTW, I just had the conference with my daughter's teacher, who acknowledged that she was much above grade level, and would test her and see if she could be moved into a higher grade. Apparently, they've never done this before, so my question to you is: if so many other kids are so bored in school, why don't parents do something about it, other than to throw money away on expensive after school tutoring programs? My kid is not bored when she gets home, I have plenty to keep her busy with, she is bored at school. And I don't need to send her to the Russian School of Math, RSM should come to my house and see how math is done!!(well, I admit, out of curiosity I did stop by, $210 a month, you gotta be kidding me, and a rude front desk lady on top of that).
Maybe parents of all these bored children should get together and talk to the teachers and administrators and form some sort of school clubs or math classes so these poor smart bored kids are also challenged and stimulated to develop at their own advanced pace.
Veronica, you seem to be content with the fact that the teachers' job is to focus on the slower kids, while you and your friends can throw hundreds of $ on expensive tutoring services. Well, I would be too, if I knew that I lived in a district where I should not expect more from the public schools. But I came back to Irvine exactly for this reason, high expectations, and I've been let down.

And yes, I criticized FL schools before, because I was sure the Irvine ones were a much better fit for my family. Well, it turns out that might not be the case. I am not going to just pack up and move back. We love it here, my kids have already made nice friends, the weather, the food and the scenery are fabulous, I am just going to have to shake things up a little and make sure my child gets what she needs,  the same way that a parent of a kid who struggled would do for their kid.
 
Interesting. But what is the algorithm they base admission on? I wonder if it has much to do with academic performance. If it does, why are the great schools.org grades so low? 8, 7 or 6 out of 10. Huge percentage of free lunches. And before someone chews my head off, I do believe free/reduced lunch percentage is directly proportional to test scores/academic results, in most cases.
 
RandomG said:
Interesting. But what is the algorithm they base admission on? I wonder if it has much to do with academic performance. If it does, why are the great schools.org grades so low? 8, 7 or 6 out of 10. Huge percentage of free lunches. And before someone chews my head off, I do believe free/reduced lunch percentage is directly proportional to test scores/academic results, in most cases.
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In NYC everything academic is highly competitive probably because of the high incomes and large population, the old supply and demand thing. They put their kids on waiting lists for preschool before they are born.

 
RandomG said:
Interesting. But what is the algorithm they base admission on? I wonder if it has much to do with academic performance. If it does, why are the great schools.org grades so low? 8, 7 or 6 out of 10. Huge percentage of free lunches. And before someone chews my head off, I do believe free/reduced lunch percentage is directly proportional to test scores/academic results, in most cases.
Click to expand...

Do not rely on GreatSchool scores. It's only a small snapshot of what a school is. For example, you can easily get a 10 with heavy parental involvement. It's much harder to do this only with great teachers. You will find plenty of examples of a 10 school with horrendous teachers (for example, showing Khan Academy YouTube clips rather than teaching because the instructor is incapable of explaining the material). In terms of economically disadvantaged kids, a good reflection of instructor ability is how this group does (compared to state averages). You are right in that household income correlates to test scores (especially SAT).

 
Ready2Downsize said:
RandomG said:
Interesting. But what is the algorithm they base admission on? I wonder if it has much to do with academic performance. If it does, why are the great schools.org grades so low? 8, 7 or 6 out of 10. Huge percentage of free lunches. And before someone chews my head off, I do believe free/reduced lunch percentage is directly proportional to test scores/academic results, in most cases.
Click to expand...

In NYC everything academic is highly competitive probably because of the high incomes and large population, the old supply and demand thing. They put their kids on waiting lists for preschool before they are born.
Click to expand...

I can speak to this out of personal experience.

NYC has specialized high schools which are highly competitive--must take entrance exam to get in, and acceptances are based off your rank in the test results. Think of it like Troy/Oxford/Whitney high, but on steroids, because the pool of applicants draws from the ENTIRE new york population (pop 8+ million) versus just within one school district within Orange County.  You had kids traveling up to 2 hours each way to attend these schools. We had run down school buildings/facilities, old textbooks, no fancy technology. But it didn't matter, because the students were motivated and smart, and the teachers were stellar.  My school, <200 kids in graduating class, 15 got into Harvard my year.

Many of the students who go to these specialized public high schools are NOT from high income families, thus the high percentage of free/reduced lunch, but they are the cream of the crop, skimmed from the entire city, so that general association of poor family==low test scores doesn't apply.

The really rich families send their kids to private schools in Manhattan (50K a year). 

The regular middle/upper middle class families whose kids don't do well enough to get into these special schools, and can't afford private in NYC, will often move to the suburbs if they can afford it.

The affluent NYC burbs with high quality local public schools would be the most analogous to Irvine, where if you can afford to live there, high house price=educated families=generally higher test scores. But still not on that same academic competitive level as an exam school, by definition.

 
nyc to oc said:
My school, <200 kids in graduating class, 15 got into Harvard my year.
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Daayyuuum.
So where did the bottom of the class go, Princeton, Yale?  Lol

Guess that makes sense though, you're picking the best kids out of such a large population in such a dense area
 
nyc to oc said:
I can speak to this out of personal experience.

NYC has specialized high schools which are highly competitive--must take entrance exam to get in, and acceptances are based off your rank in the test results. Think of it like Troy/Oxford/Whitney high, but on steroids, because the pool of applicants draws from the ENTIRE new york population (pop 8+ million) versus just within one school district within Orange County.  You had kids traveling up to 2 hours each way to attend these schools. We had run down school buildings/facilities, old textbooks, no fancy technology. But it didn't matter, because the students were motivated and smart, and the teachers were stellar.  My school, <200 kids in graduating class, 15 got into Harvard my year.

Many of the students who go to these specialized public high schools are NOT from high income families, thus the high percentage of free/reduced lunch, but they are the cream of the crop, skimmed from the entire city, so that general association of poor family==low test scores doesn't apply.

The really rich families send their kids to private schools in Manhattan (50K a year). 

The regular middle/upper middle class families whose kids don't do well enough to get into these special schools, and can't afford private in NYC, will often move to the suburbs if they can afford it.

The affluent NYC burbs with high quality local public schools would be the most analogous to Irvine, where if you can afford to live there, high house price=educated families=generally higher test scores. But still not on that same academic competitive level as an exam school, by definition.
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Sounds like you went to the Brick Prison.
 
Since apparently I have way too much free time on my hands, I went to the websites of the two top schools in the article, Manhattan Hunter Science School, and Manhattan Village Academy.
I do not see anywhere that an entrance exam is required, admission seems to be based solely on grades in middle school, standardized test scores, showing up at open house, the very general concept of "high-level academic achievement". Kind of like a regular magnet school.
So, how do they pick the best of the best? They do seem to have 3000 applications per 100 spots. Maybe lottery is involved?
Also, the fact such a big percentage of them gets into top colleges maybe has to do with free lunch eligibility. Don't you guys always say that a poor kid who does well in high school has higher chances of getting into a top college than a not so poor kid at the same academic level?

Here is how things were done in my country when I was growing up: every high school had a certain number of spots for incoming 9th graders. Some high schools were better than others, so naturally, higher competition to get in. Maybe 3-4 kids per spot, maybe 10. Some schools were so undesirable, they didn't even get as many applicants as the number of open spots.
Students had to take two entrance exams, one in Lang. Arts, one in Math. They mostly covered topics of 7 and 8 grade. These exams were national (the same all over the country). Students got into their school of choice based on the average score of these two exams. Once the number of spots was occupied, they would draw the line. Everyone with score below that line basically flunked, they would take their application to a school that still had spots left open.

Yes, a lot was riding on this entrance test. Yes, some kids were jittery, maybe to the point where they would get sick and not even show up. Parents were even more nervous. I remember how they would post the lists with the students' names and scores, and the infamous black line, on the high school's fences, and it was a day of celebration, or tragedy. But it was a fair system. No rich, no poor, everyone was suddenly equal. And the whole process repeated itself for college entrance. Where the two or three exams were this time related to whatever you decided to major in, math and physics for engineering, physics biology and chemistry for pre-med, etc.

I wonder if that's how it is done in Asian countries today.
 
RandomG said:
Since apparently I have way too much free time on my hands, I went to the websites of the two top schools in the article, Manhattan Hunter Science School, and Manhattan Village Academy.
I do not see anywhere that an entrance exam is required, admission seems to be based solely on grades in middle school, standardized test scores, showing up at open house, the very general concept of "high-level academic achievement". Kind of like a regular magnet school.
So, how do they pick the best of the best? They do seem to have 3000 applications per 100 spots. Maybe lottery is involved?
Also, the fact such a big percentage of them gets into top colleges maybe has to do with free lunch eligibility. Don't you guys always say that a poor kid who does well in high school has higher chances of getting into a top college than a not so poor kid at the same academic level?

Here is how things were done in my country when I was growing up: every high school had a certain number of spots for incoming 9th graders. Some high schools were better than others, so naturally, higher competition to get in. Maybe 3-4 kids per spot, maybe 10. Some schools were so undesirable, they didn't even get as many applicants as the number of open spots.
Students had to take two entrance exams, one in Lang. Arts, one in Math. They mostly covered topics of 7 and 8 grade. These exams were national (the same all over the country). Students got into their school of choice based on the average score of these two exams. Once the number of spots was occupied, they would draw the line. Everyone with score below that line basically flunked, they would take their application to a school that still had spots left open.

Yes, a lot was riding on this entrance test. Yes, some kids were jittery, maybe to the point where they would get sick and not even show up. Parents were even more nervous. I remember how they would post the lists with the students' names and scores, and the infamous black line, on the high school's fences, and it was a day of celebration, or tragedy. But it was a fair system. No rich, no poor, everyone was suddenly equal. And the whole process repeated itself for college entrance. Where the two or three exams were this time related to whatever you decided to major in, math and physics for engineering, physics biology and chemistry for pre-med, etc.

I wonder if that's how it is done in Asian countries today.
Click to expand...

The schools you looked up are actually 2nd tier.  The best public schools like Stuy & Bronx Science, etc.  cull their students from a separate exam as mentioned in the article:

"Some of the city?s best-known schools, like Stuyvesant High School, are not on this list because students apply to what are known as the specialized schools through a separate process, in which admission is based on a single standardized test."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
 
WTTCHMN said:
RandomG said:
Since apparently I have way too much free time on my hands, I went to the websites of the two top schools in the article, Manhattan Hunter Science School, and Manhattan Village Academy.
I do not see anywhere that an entrance exam is required, admission seems to be based solely on grades in middle school, standardized test scores, showing up at open house, the very general concept of "high-level academic achievement". Kind of like a regular magnet school.
So, how do they pick the best of the best? They do seem to have 3000 applications per 100 spots. Maybe lottery is involved?
Also, the fact such a big percentage of them gets into top colleges maybe has to do with free lunch eligibility. Don't you guys always say that a poor kid who does well in high school has higher chances of getting into a top college than a not so poor kid at the same academic level?

Here is how things were done in my country when I was growing up: every high school had a certain number of spots for incoming 9th graders. Some high schools were better than others, so naturally, higher competition to get in. Maybe 3-4 kids per spot, maybe 10. Some schools were so undesirable, they didn't even get as many applicants as the number of open spots.
Students had to take two entrance exams, one in Lang. Arts, one in Math. They mostly covered topics of 7 and 8 grade. These exams were national (the same all over the country). Students got into their school of choice based on the average score of these two exams. Once the number of spots was occupied, they would draw the line. Everyone with score below that line basically flunked, they would take their application to a school that still had spots left open.

Yes, a lot was riding on this entrance test. Yes, some kids were jittery, maybe to the point where they would get sick and not even show up. Parents were even more nervous. I remember how they would post the lists with the students' names and scores, and the infamous black line, on the high school's fences, and it was a day of celebration, or tragedy. But it was a fair system. No rich, no poor, everyone was suddenly equal. And the whole process repeated itself for college entrance. Where the two or three exams were this time related to whatever you decided to major in, math and physics for engineering, physics biology and chemistry for pre-med, etc.

I wonder if that's how it is done in Asian countries today.
Click to expand...

The schools you looked up are actually 2nd tier.  The best public schools like Hunter College, Stuy, Bronx Science, etc.  cull their students from a separate exam as mentioned in the article:

"Some of the city?s best-known schools, like Stuyvesant High School, are not on this list because students apply to what are known as the specialized schools through a separate process, in which admission is based on a single standardized test."
Click to expand...

I must not be as well educated as I presumed.  I had to look up the meaning of "cull".
 
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